View Full Version : Baseball, US Flag, Patriotism, and a Dead Photographer
bmattock
04-26-2006, 11:09
This one has everything. I don't want to quibble - it has a lot of heart-felt emotion in it. One might note that Baseball is played in Canada, too. So I wonder how the feel about this being one of the "greatest moments in baseball."
However, in sheer feel-good, it is a topper. And even on topic - sad story at the end about the photographer.
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_photos/2006-04-24-rick-monday.jpg
Photo by Jim Roark, Los Angeles Herald Examiner via AP
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2006-04-25-rick-monday_x.htm
Flag-saving moment still winning salutes
Updated 4/25/2006 2:49 AM ET
By Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY
The hand was trembling, the voice was quivering and tears were running down his face. The World War II soldier, who survived the Pearl Harbor attack, looked Rick Monday in the eyes, slowly raised his right arm, and saluted him.
"Thank you," Monday recalls the soldier telling him last year. "And thank you from all of my shipmates."
Thirty years ago today, Monday became an American hero.
It was the day he saved the American flag.
"It was the greatest heroic act that's ever happened on a baseball field," Hall of Fame manager Tom Lasorda said. "He protected the symbol of everything that we live for. And the symbol that we live in the greatest country in the world."
The Hall of Fame recently voted Monday's act as one of the 100 classic moments in the history of the game. Monday, who spent 19 years in the major leagues and is a Los Angeles Dodgers broadcaster, will be honored tonight with a video tribute at Minute Maid Park in Houston.
They'll replay a grainy videotape that was discovered in 1984 showing two people jumping over the railing in left field and spreading the American flag onto the Dodger Stadium turf. One man dousing the flag with lighter fluid. The other lighting a match. And Monday, playing for the Chicago Cubs, running in from center field, grabbing the flag and carrying it to safety.
They'll play Vin Scully's voice from the radio broadcast: "Wait a minute, there's an animal loose. Two of them! I'm not sure what he's doing out there. It looks like he's going to burn a flag. ...
"And Rick Monday runs and takes it away from him!"
And perhaps the crowd will duplicate the same reaction as 30 years ago: sitting in stunned silence, then standing, cheering and spontaneously singing God Bless America.
"It moved the entire crowd," Monday said. "I don't remember if we won or lost the game, but I'll never forget the people singing."
Monday, 60, a six-year veteran of the Marine Corps Reserves, still receives letters each week about the incident. Most are from military veterans, others from kids wanting to learn about American history.
"The world has changed," Monday said. "We weren't that far removed from Vietnam at the time. But what they were trying to do in 1976 was wrong. It's still wrong today.
"That little piece of cloth represents a lot of rights and freedoms that people have given up their lives to protect."
"It was a dramatic day, and a day that made you proud to be in baseball," Commissioner Bud Selig said.
Today, questions remain:
Why did these protesters, William Thomas, 36, and his 11-year-old son run onto the field to burn the flag? They were arrested and fined $60. Monday said he never was interested in asking. Attempts to locate Thomas, or to determine whether he's still alive, were unsuccessful.
What happened to the photographer, James Roark, of the now-defunct Los Angeles Herald Examiner, who shot the only photo of the incident? Roark, whose photo was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize, lost his job, became a night cook in Portland and was beaten and killed outside a restaurant in 1995. He was 49.
And the tattered flag that was soaked with lighter fluid? It's in Monday's possession in a safe-deposit box, surviving the hurricanes near his Vero Beach, Fla., home. He was offered $1 million for the flag several years ago, he said, but rejected the overture.
"The flag is faded, and it's somewhat tattered," Monday said. "It wasn't like it was just bought off the shelf. It wasn't in great shape from the start.
"But the flag is not for sale. What this flag represents, you can't buy."
Bill, I appreciate your feelings so don't read this as a personal attack. I know you're one of the good guys. :)
That said, IMO without the story the photo is actually completely worthless. It's a good story, and the picture makes it visible for all of us who haven't lived the incident (let alone know these details of contemporary US history), but without the story the photo tells no story whatsoever. A classic? I don't think so.
bmattock
04-26-2006, 11:27
Bill, I appreciate your feelings so don't read this as a personal attack. I know you're one of the good guys. :)
That said, IMO without the story the photo is actually completely worthless. It's a good story, and the picture makes it visible for all of us who haven't lived the incident (let alone know these details of contemporary US history), but without the story the photo tells no story whatsoever. A classic? I don't think so.
Don't worry, I don't take it that way at all. A number of things bothered me about it, including:
1) Baseball is supposed to be international. Would we feel the same if it had been a Canadian flag?
2) The photo itself is fine - pure photojournalism, just a grab shot of a newsworthy topic. But as you said, it doesn't tell too much of the story on its own. Not that it could have.
3) I actually support the right to freedom of speech, which would include burning the flag. I'd hate that someone wanted to do it, but would support their right to do so. Not in the baseball park though - that's private property.
4) The real story here - to me - is what happened to the photographer - why was he fired? How was it he could not get another job as a PJ? Why did he have to end up working as a short-order cook and then be murdered?
But the 'flag' story pulls at the heartstrings, so there you go.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Don't worry, I don't take it that way at all. A number of things bothered me about it, including:
1) Baseball is supposed to be international. Would we feel the same if it had been a Canadian flag?
Actually, how would people (in the US, Europe, elsewhere) feel if it had been a Cuban flag? I think emotions could have flared even higher. Or, if it had happened only a few days ago, what if it had been a Palestinian or Iranian flag? Flags have a tendency to arouse people in ways nearly unimaginable.
3) I actually support the right to freedom of speech, which would include burning the flag. I'd hate that someone wanted to do it, but would support their right to do so. Not in the baseball park though - that's private property.
And burning is IIRC the only proper way of disposing off a flag.
4) The real story here - to me - is what happened to the photographer - why was he fired? How was it he could not get another job as a PJ? Why did he have to end up working as a short-order cook and then be murdered?
That struck me too about the story. Is this what happens to all those photogs that don't really make the grade? Like all those has-been movie stars, fading into oblivion? Though this photog's oblivion was particularly sad. Dang, makes you wonder....
bmattock
04-26-2006, 11:46
And burning is IIRC the only proper way of disposing off a flag.
Well, yes, but not on a baseball field during the game, I think. I rather suspect that this guy and his kid were not trying to show proper respect for a retired national ensign.
That struck me too about the story. Is this what happens to all those photogs that don't really make the grade? Like all those has-been movie stars, fading into oblivion? Though this photog's oblivion was particularly sad. Dang, makes you wonder....
Yeah, it does. And so it goes...
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
robert blu
04-26-2006, 11:55
Bill, it s an interesting story I did not know. So I learned something important. It s very sad about the photographer. In my opinion is very upsetting that in was fired, did not find any other job and at the end was killed. Maybe we are not sure it was direct related to the story, but of course anyway very suspicious. I don't know how to comment. In those days in Italy we have some protest going on and also people burning some flags in the street. Personally I think that everyone has the right to protest, but burning a flag bring them to a very low level. We can protest with words, images, songs. march, theater or underground papers etc etc, Anyway I thank you for having me let know a piece of history about your country, ciao
robert
Taipei-metro
04-26-2006, 12:14
Bill,
I see the link, You and Mr. Monday,
Semper Fi
bmattock
04-26-2006, 12:14
It took me a bit, but I finally found information on the photographer who was killed:
FORMER L.A. HERALD-EXAMINER PHOTOGRAPHER JIM ROARK KILLED IN ROBBERY
-----------------------
"Former Los Angeles photographer James Roark died Thursday of
injuries suffered in a savage beating four days earlier when he left his
job at a night cook in Portland, Ore., employment he landed after he
lost his job when the Herald-Examiner folded.
"'He was kind of a gentle, harmless sort of individual, just bumping
along through life the best he could,' said Hal Hulburt, owner of Poor
Richard's Restaurant, where Roark, 49, had worked for 1 1/2 years.
"As chief sports photographer for the Herald Examiner, Roark took
the 1976 photo, nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, that showed Chicago
Cubs outfielder Rick Monday grabbing an American flag from two
protesters who were about to set it on fire.
"Roark adopted his last name after reading the Ayn Rand novel "The
Fountainhead," who main character, a staunchly individualistic
architect, is named Roark.
"Roark lost his job when the Herald closed in November 1989. He
stayed to help dismantle the paper, then left for Portland, where he
attended the Western Culinary Institute, graduating in 1993.
"Robbery apparently was the reason two men and a woman attacked
him near a light-rail transit station, police said. No arrests have been
made."
Here is a photo of the photographer that I found - I believe this is Jim Roarke:
http://www.gulker.com/photos/archive/photographers/photographers-Pages/Image10.html
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
04-26-2006, 12:18
Bill,
I see the link, You and Mr. Monday,
Semper Fi
Yes, that's true as well. Good catch!
Semper Fi,
Bill Mattocks
B, that shot does indeed have it all.
Nikon Bob
04-26-2006, 13:01
What a sad way for a person to have his/her life ended. I had to read the story, without which I would not understand the photo or the sentiment it generated. I would prefer that all flags be treated with dignity and respect.
Nikon Bob
boarini2003
04-26-2006, 13:14
Mr. Roark sounds like quite an amazing person. I read the novel "The Fountainhead" the story of architect Howard Roark. It's funny, because when I first hear the photographer's name, I thought instantly of Ayn Rand's novel, and it turns out that's where the guy got his name from!
Todd.Hanz
04-26-2006, 13:23
Interesting story Bill. I don't know how people would react if the flag belonged to another nation, as Americans we are taught (or used to be) respect for the flag. Everytime I hear of someone disrespecting our colors I think of this song by the man in black: http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/cash-johnny/ragged-old-flag-2215.html
Good story.
Todd
In Canada there would be, I'm pretty certain, a range of reactions to the burning or other "dishonourable" treatment of the flag. But our flag is more an object of affection than sacred symbol of patriotism. Don't get me wrong, as a lot Canadians are patriotic, but we see American veneration of the flag as more of sort of silly idolatry than as reasoned patriotism. It's a piece of cloth (well, synthetic weaving in most cases), and the real significance is simply the values and freedom it is intended to symbolize.
I agree, Bill, that the freedom of speech is more important than the cloth.
But when your colour guard flew our flag upside down during the first Jays world series, we were really, really pissed ... after we got done laughing.
Creagerj
04-26-2006, 21:10
To me I say that the picture does tell a story. Monday running off with the flag, while the would be flag burners neel on the ground looking quiete surprised. It is a classic because it caches a classic moment in baseball history. Freedom of speech is importand. However as far as flag burnign goes I guess you would have to ask yourself if you see the flag as a sybol of our government, or as a sybol of our national unifaction. For those of us who see it as a sybol of national unifacation, it is kind of like being flipped off when someone burns the flag. Also it can be insulting because a lot of people have known someone who has fought and died for what that flag stands for.
lmd91343
04-26-2006, 22:08
I remember that day. I used to listen to every Dodger game. I remember Vin Scully's call and Jerry Dogget (sp?) talk about it.
Monday was with the visiting Cubs. The would be burners jumped over the fence near the left feild foul pole. THey tried to burn the flag in left center. Monday ran, grabbed the flag, and dashed to the Dodger dugout near third base. The photo was taken from the photog well, next to the visiting Cubs dugout on the first base side.
Monday was considered such a hero, the Dodgers later traded for him.
The photo, as I recall was not in that nite's edition. The Examiner was an evening paper. I had to drive to get the late 5 star edition. I don't remember if the photo was in the 5 star or the next day's regular edition.
Pherdinand
04-27-2006, 01:26
Yep that's how it is. (news) Photographers make shots and document important moments in life, the universe and everything, but they themselves will fade into oblivion.
We should all play baseball instead, and wait for our moment to save a flag or somethin.
John Camp
04-27-2006, 06:02
A very large percentage of newspaper reporters and photographers leave the business in their late 30s or early 40s, and do something entirely different. This guy went to a culinary institute, so I get the impression he wasn't a McDonald's-type short-order cook. So I find none of that surprising. The way he died is tragic and absurd; that is not uncommon in our society, unfortunately.
JC
BrianPhotog
04-27-2006, 06:44
1) Baseball is supposed to be international. Would we feel the same if it had been a Canadian flag?
Baseball is identified as "American" as it is an American invention and export, like basketball. People in Cuba play baseball as a way of hopefully immigrating to the U.S. . If you ask anyone in Taipei (where I am) "where does baseball come from?" they'll answer "Mei Guo" (err... America).
It's like hamburgers...I can buy a hamburger down the street from me even though I'm 6500 miles away from where I'm from (L.A.) and the "homeland" of the hamburger. And if you ask anyone here where the hamburger comes from, they'll know.
bmattock
04-27-2006, 06:53
Baseball is identified as "American" as it is an American invention and export, like basketball. People in Cuba play baseball as a way of hopefully immigrating to the U.S. . If you ask anyone in Taipei (where I am) "where does baseball come from?" they'll answer "Mei Guo" (err... America).
It's like hamburgers...I can buy a hamburger down the street from me even though I'm 6500 miles away from where I'm from (L.A.) and the "homeland" of the hamburger. And if you ask anyone here where the hamburger comes from, they'll know.
MLB consists of US and Canadian teams. I would suspect that fans in Montreal would be somewhat less enthusiastic about endorsing the saving of a US flag from being burned as one of the greatest moments in MLB baseball history. Whoops, I just found out, apparently no more Expos? Well, I guess Toronto then. You can see I'm out of touch with sports.
I know well where baseball comes from - I am a student of US Civil War history. The guy got no respect.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Thanks for sharing both the photo and the story, Bill. I'm also glad you came out in favor of free speech, including flag burning. You'd have to be a pretty big moron to burn the flag in protest of a cause you actually cared about, because in the US it just turns people off so much it's just a huge disservice. It would be more like protesting war by beating up an old lady or something (except beating up old ladies isn't Constitutionally protected speech, of course...I'm talking about effectiveness here). But it's sad and disconcerting how few Americans understand the nature of free speech, i.e. that it must apply to offensive and obnoxious speech as well as dumb, smart, and patriotic speech. Way off topic, I know.....John/sooner
And if you ask anyone here where the hamburger comes from, they'll know.
Hamburgers were called Swiss Steaks until about 30 years ago in Italy, and someone told me that the Swiss had been eating what you call Hamburgers even before the USA existed, the name itself however seems to suggest a German horigin (from the town of Hamburg).
So you see if you ask me the only think I know is that probably they don't come from the USA.
Fedzilla_Bob
04-27-2006, 07:23
Pretty amazing. I'm trying to rmember what was going on in '84. Must have been the Iran-Contra scandal. I was probably at work and missed the entire incident (the flag burning).
I know where I stood then. I wouldn't have chosen to burn a flag over it though. I was more concerned about the tail end of the cold war. I digress.
I imagine the two morons who decided that a baseball game was good place for a flag burning must have felt pretty dumb when the crowd responded the way it did. Where are they now? Probably lawyers for an international bank or an oil corporation.
James Roark's fate though... that truly bites.
bmattock
04-27-2006, 07:36
But it's sad and disconcerting how few Americans understand the nature of free speech, i.e. that it must apply to offensive and obnoxious speech as well as dumb, smart, and patriotic speech. Way off topic, I know.....John/sooner
The most difficult lesson of freedom is that it can hurt. Defending the right of those who would do what you abhor - this is the test.
However, in the confines of the baseball park, which is private property, Monday was entirely right to do what he did. And my heart cheers him on.
Patriotism is often confused with jingoism, but this is where the difference is clear. Patriotism supports the rights of citizens, jingoism defends a bit of cloth over civil liberties. Patriotism is not a dirty word.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
I know where I stood then. I wouldn't have chosen to burn a flag over it though.
I always thought that flag burning is really a silly way of protesting, you upset a lot of people, and they are not going to be interested in what was your point.
That said I am 100% with Bill on this one: I may strongly disagree with someone's ideas, but I will always fight for his right to express them.
dostacos
04-27-2006, 07:46
Don't worry, I don't take it that way at all. A number of things bothered me about it, including:
1) Baseball is supposed to be international. Would we feel the same if it had been a Canadian flag?
2) The photo itself is fine - pure photojournalism, just a grab shot of a newsworthy topic. But as you said, it doesn't tell too much of the story on its own. Not that it could have.
3) I actually support the right to freedom of speech, which would include burning the flag. I'd hate that someone wanted to do it, but would support their right to do so. Not in the baseball park though - that's private property.
4) The real story here - to me - is what happened to the photographer - why was he fired? How was it he could not get another job as a PJ? Why did he have to end up working as a short-order cook and then be murdered?
But the 'flag' story pulls at the heartstrings, so there you go.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
He may have been let go as the paper went under. :(
The paper was in [IIRC] a decade long fight with at least one union and the owners finally closed down rather than give in to the demands. :eek:
As for the photo, I do feel it tells a story. :)
and as for the what if... since the burning of a US flag seems to be more symbolic on both sides of the match it may not be nearly the statement if it had been another flag.
Patriotism is often confused with jingoism, but this is where the difference is clear. Patriotism supports the rights of citizens, jingoism defends a bit of cloth over civil liberties. Patriotism is not a dirty word.
True, unfortunately a lot of people seems to think that if you disagree with the actions of your government, then you are anti-patriotic (even people in positions of power), and is this kind of attitude that gives a bad image to patriotism.
i say burn all the flags of all nations or make clothes out of them...
photogdave
04-27-2006, 07:59
Thanks for showing us this Bill. I had never heard this story before.
I believe the photo stands on its own. There are enough elements there to engage the viewer's interest and to read the story for the details. A good photograph doesn't necessarily have to tell the whole entire story without words, as long as it draws you in and raises questions.
I don't think most serious sports fans are proprietary when it comes to great moments in the history of their favourite sports. Anyone can see this was a significant event. You don't have to be Canadian to recognize that Team Canada beating the Soviets in 1972 was one of the greatest moments in the history of hockey.
Although we don't have the same reverence for our flag as Americans, I'm sure most Canadians understand and respect the reason behind it - even if we think it's a little weird sometimes!
Sad about the photog but the initial report makes him sound like a bit of a down-and-outer, which may not be true. As someone else mentioned, many newspaper photogs burn out and change careers. After working as a photographer, reporter and sports editor at a few different weekly papers I actually became ashamed of some of the things I felt I had to photograph or write and wasn't happy working in that business. So I left.
Brian, basketball was invented in Canada by a Canadian. We just suck at it because we flood and freeze any decent sized arena in the winter, and we wouldn't have it any other way.....
We also have a competing claim for the 1st game of baseball, and apparently the 1st forward pass in football (distinguishing it from rugby) was thrown at a University of Toronto game in the 1870's.
We're still working on a claim for Kentucky Fried Chicken, but that's a little tougher. Let me see, if Col. Sanders was really Burl Ives, and he was born in Saskatchewan........
Bill, I agree with everything in your response to my last posting. There are some who believe that patriotism itself is a destructive force, or that religion only leads to violence against other faiths. I am not such a person. To me, the key is how we define and practice our patriotism, whether that means holding an elected official immune from criticism or being aware and critical and possibly even holding him responsible for illegal violations of the law. One thing we all have in common is that no matter how we define patriotism, we all consider ourselves the most patriotic son-of-a-bi**h alive! I know I do. Ha. --john
Hamburgers were called Swiss Steaks until about 30 years ago in Italy, and someone told me that the Swiss had been eating what you call Hamburgers even before the USA existed, the name itself however seems to suggest a German horigin (from the town of Hamburg).
So you see if you ask me the only think I know is that probably they don't come from the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger
It's an interesting story, and I am also wondering about the life of the photographer. If anyone finds details, please post.
bmattock
04-27-2006, 09:27
It's an interesting story, and I am also wondering about the life of the photographer. If anyone finds details, please post.
I did, if you check the thread.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany, but putting it between two pieces of bread etc is an American invention, so both sides can argue they invented the hamburger...
A less controversial origination of food is that the so-called 'french fries' are not french at all, but belgian, damnit!
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany, but putting it between two pieces of bread etc is an American invention, so both sides can argue they invented the hamburger...
When really it was the Romans! (Apicitus, De re coquinaria c.115 AD....
http://www.realm-of-shade.com/sweetlady/cuisine/rec2.html
Liquamen was rather like Worcester Sauce and Caroenum was a sweet, vinegary, pickle-like paste made from wine, honey, spice and salt
Yum!:D
Ian
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany
According to the Wikipedia link posted earlier making steaks with minced beef can be traced to the Tartars in the 13th century.
When really it was the Romans! (Apicitus, De re coquinaria c.115 AD
The plot gets thicker!
Anyone got any earlier reference?
Maybe the Greeks or the Egyptians?
Every red blooded and meat eating Canadian knows that it was HARVY who invented the real hamburger. :D :D :p :p
It must have been a long time ago because their slogan "Meat-Fire-Good" sounds
like very primitive english. ;)
Regards to all,
Bill K
Took his name from Ayn Rand's Howard Roark...I find that very intriguing. That is an incredibly hard name to live up to, the uberindividualist with rock-solid self confidence and self-assurance together with a complete disregard, no... complete non-regard (if there is such a thing) for the impressions he leaves on others. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just hard to do. I can understand the photojournalism aspect with the "selfishness" (Ayn's version), but being a chef seems to have fewer absolutes than the art of a photo... different tastes, blends, etc.
BrianPhotog
04-27-2006, 18:15
You can see I'm out of touch with sports.I'm from L.A. . We lose teams to other cities and no one even notices :p
BrianPhotog
04-27-2006, 18:26
Naismith was born in Ontario, but invented basketball at a YMCA in Springfield, Mass. :)
http://www.kansasheritage.org/people/naismith.html
Maybe he realised that his fellow Canadians already had hockey and were good at it but the US needed a sport of it's own for places like LA where there is no ice, so he moved south of the border first. :D
BrianPhotog
04-27-2006, 18:28
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany, but putting it between two pieces of bread etc is an American invention, so both sides can argue they invented the hamburger...
A less controversial origination of food is that the so-called 'french fries' are not french at all, but belgian, damnit!
I always thought the "french" in "french fries" referred to the cut?
LOL... I haven't seen the Harvey's ad for awhile. I always thought Dr. Atkins was a major investor in Harvey's.
anselwannab
04-27-2006, 20:30
"The Fountian Head" was a good read, especially since English wasn't her native tongue. "Atlas Shrugged" was a lot tougher to get thru , and I don't think I finished it.
Elsworth Touhey (sp?) has some great dialouge in "Foutnian Head". Always kind of reminded me what a lot of politicions would be when no one is looking.
Brad and Angilena may be doing "Atlas Shrugged".
Mark
wlewisiii
04-27-2006, 20:46
Brad and Angilena may be doing "Atlas Shrugged".
Somehow, to me, that seems about right. But then, I always considered Ms. Rand's works to be best read by a high school student either right before or after their Herman Hesse phase... :eek:
William
bmattock
04-27-2006, 20:57
Somehow, to me, that seems about right. But then, I always considered Ms. Rand's works to be best read by a high school student either right before or after their Herman Hesse phase... :eek:
William
Personally, I'm a fan of Ayn Rand's, although not of her works of fiction. Objectivism has a certain allure.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
jan normandale
04-27-2006, 21:41
Ayn Rand was a bit of a nut case and became even weirder in her later years with a whole cult thing and male adorers/acolytes of the 'faith'. That the photographer Roark met death from a beating after work is well, indescribable for any place on earth.
Isn't basketball just a *******ised version of the old, Dutch ball game "korfbal"? :)
Isn't basketball just a *******ised version of the old, Dutch ball game "korfbal"? :)
I don't know, a frend of mine calls it "Cricket for Pussies" so I suppose it must have some similarity to the much older Cricket
I don't know, a frend of mine calls it "Cricket for Pussies" so I suppose it must have some similarity to the much older Cricket
Aaargh I still have to wake up this morning, I did not read the original post properly and assumed we were still talking about Baseball.
oftheherd
04-28-2006, 02:30
Isn't basketball just a *******ised version of the old, Dutch ball game "korfbal"? :)
I seem to recall reading and seeing of TV that the Mayans had a "game" where they had to place a ball through a ring on a wall. Some apparently think it might have been used by competing political entities to resolve disputes. As I recall, there is evidence the losing team was put to death. One has to wonder who the "players" were; simply those seeking whatever rewards the winners got, patriots, politicians ... ?
Personally I don't agree with USA flag burning being a legitimate expression of free speech any more than I do shouting fire in a theater. But that is just me and not law. I sure believe in rule of law, so I have to agree with those who say flag burners have that right if they don't violate other laws in the process.
Strange conflict of emotions, but rule of law wins hands down.
bmattock
04-28-2006, 03:51
Ayn Rand was a bit of a nut case and became even weirder in her later years with a whole cult thing and male adorers/acolytes of the 'faith'. That the photographer Roark met death from a beating after work is well, indescribable for any place on earth.
Some of us think more highly of Ayn Rand's philosophy.
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