View Full Version : zeiss ikon m survey
back alley
04-17-2006, 17:20
i thought it might be a good idea to track the number of owners and keep a simple record of problems.
i can delete this and start another if folks come up with a better alternative.
it is not meant to be comprehensive.
joe
I'm in month 5 going on 6. Only thing bugging me now is that I don't have a longer lens yet, and my luigi case smells like fish.
back alley
04-17-2006, 19:21
...smells like fish?
mine smells wonderful!
tedwhite
04-17-2006, 20:09
Odour lies in the nose of the nose-holder.
julianphotoart
04-17-2006, 21:43
2nd month. Love it. About 8 rolls of film. Less than zero problems. Have not seen my M7, or any other RF for that matter, since I got the ZI.
BJ Bignell
04-18-2006, 04:48
What, no option for those of us who don't own a ZI but still would like to participate in the poll?
;)
Just a follow up, Luigi is very concerned about the quality of his product, and I'm certainly impressed with his commitment to customer satisfaction: not something you see everyday at all, anymore. I'd like to point out that my comment about the smell was intended for amusement, considering that's the worst of my problems and the camera :)
Jano, Did you order one in sturgeon skin? Tell 'em to take the caviar out first. Thanks also for vital info in your sig!
CameraQuest
04-18-2006, 20:27
I am not going to share sales figures, but so far, zero Zeiss Ikon bodies have been returned to me for any problem. They seem a relatively dependable camera which is likely to only get better as time goes on. Any NEW camera model, much less any entirely NEW camera line, is going to see more than an average number of problems over the first six months. After that, the initial growing pains of an entirely new production production line will only get better, which results in ever better quality control and reliability. Zeiss is not just any camera manufacturer. These guys know how to get it right ! Cosina's Mr. K is there to make sure it can be done right at an unbelievably low price compared to a German production line. So relax people, you have a real quality product at a bargain price !
Stephen Gandy
Huck Finn
04-19-2006, 07:00
I am not going to share sales figures, but so far, zero Zeiss Ikon bodies have been returned to me for any problem. They seem a relatively dependable camera which is likely to only get better as time goes on. Any NEW camera model, much less any entirely NEW camera line, is going to see more than an average number of problems over the first six months. After that, the initial growing pains of an entirely new production production line will only get better, which results in ever better quality control and reliability. Zeiss is not just any camera manufacturer. These guys know how to get it right ! Cosina's Mr. K is there to make sure it can be done right at an unbelievably low price compared to a German production line. So relax people, you have a real quality product at a bargain price !
Stephen Gandy
I received the same comment from Dr. Yao (e-mail: jospeh@yao.com) regarding his sales of ZI cameras & the lack of any cameras returned with problems.
back alley
04-19-2006, 07:02
it's a small sampling but so far there have been more cameras than not with no problems.
Huck Finn
04-19-2006, 07:23
it's a small sampling but so far there have been more cameras than not with no problems.
Every ZI that leaves the factory is inspected before it is boxed & the inspector signs off on it. You just don't find companies doing this any more. No system is perfect, but this alone should cut down significantly on the obvious problems that would otherwise show up outof the box. In other words, other companies in effect have their customers doing the quality control inspections for them & then sending them back. I imagine that there can still be some rangefinder misalignments that occur in shipping, but I'd really be surprised if there are a high percent of problems occurring initially. Only long term use will tell us if there are problems that are related to build quality.
back alley
04-19-2006, 07:28
i doubt that there will be many long term problems.
maybe it's just wishful thinking but this camera seems very sturdy and solid in my hands.
compared to the m3 it does feel lighter, i know some equate weight with quality, but after carrying it around for a few hours i much prefer the zi.
Huck Finn
04-19-2006, 07:53
Joe, the vast amount of the weight difference is due to magnesium vs brass. I don't see that making a bit of difference in terms of durability. The other factor is the use of metal throughout the M3 whereas the ZI substitutes plastic for metal in some parts. That seems to be just a fact of life in manufacturing in the 21st century. Same thing on my FM3a & its build quality is considered to be robust. Such modern compromises in manufacturing also contibute to the fact that the ZI costs half the price of an MP or M7. For most uses, I doubt that this will make a big difference either.
Now, I don't want to pee on anyone's parade. I think the ZI is an awesome camera and the accompanying glass is so excellent that the 35/2 Biogon is now my favourite lens.
I also "defended" the ZI on this fine forum against allegations of being "vapourware" long before it finally hit the shelves. Plus I owned one for a week.
But if you compare it to an M3, M2, M4, M6, MP or M7, let's talk again in 5 years. Not to mention in 50 years...
The other factor is the use of metal throughout the M3 whereas the ZI substitutes plastic for metal in some parts.
This may be the key issue.. I think plastic comes with the inherent "cheap" quality, ultimatley derived from the fact that plastic can break whereas metal will just get deformed or bent. The nice thing about plastic, however, is that it can be softer and in some circumstances where metal would get deformed, the plastic will retain its shape without damage.
Now, I don't want to pee on anyone's parade. I think the ZI is an awesome camera and the accompanying glass is so excellent that the 35/2 Biogon is now my favourite lens.
I also "defended" the ZI on this fine forum against allegations of being "vapourware" long before it finally hit the shelves. Plus I owned one for a week.
But if you compare it to an M3, M2, M4, M6, MP or M7, let's talk again in 5 years. Not to mention in 50 years...
Thanks, iDude, this is the kind of perspective I appreciate prior to ordering the a la carte m7 I've been floundering about. Funny, I never thought to ask about an M/ZI longterm comparison expectation, and I thank you for the idea. The M is known and although the ZI is probably great, it hasn't been proven for decades. I expect that my kid's kids will eventually have a real issue trying to find film for these Leicas, and they'll make wonderful bookends and paperweights that have a very satisfying click from the shutter... but during my lifetime they'll help me to enjoy recording life as we know it.
back alley
04-25-2006, 16:16
let me see if i understand this right...you would buy a 50 year old camera now but you won't buy a new camera in case it doesn't last 50 years?
weight aside, i doubt that a modern new leica is better built than the zi. my guess is they are on par build wise with equal amounts of plastic and problems.
and the weight diff is due to different types of metals being used.
no argument here as to what you choose to get, just wondering about the logic.
joe
let me see if i understand this right...you would buy a 50 year old camera now but you won't buy a new camera in case it doesn't last 50 years?
weight aside, i doubt that a modern new leica is better built than the zi. my guess is they are on par build wise with equal amounts of plastic and problems.
and the weight diff is due to different types of metals being used.
no argument here as to what you choose to get, just wondering about the logic.
joe
Actually, I would buy a new m7 now, to go with my existing leica system knowing that it will (most likely) last 50 years, or at least as long as I want it, as opposed to a new camera with a new system with no multi-decade endurance record. I am not in the market for an old M, I just like the fact that some old ones are still wonderfully functional and would hope that mine would do the same.
Besides, I am not sure where logic actually enters when one has 7 rangefinder cameras and is pondering which brand the 8th is going to be. Its all good fun and strangely satisfying... after all, I could be billing time on a case.
back alley
04-25-2006, 17:10
logic was a poor choice of word, especially coming from me;)
my motivation was in thinking that maybe you would deny yourself a zi because it might not last 50 years.
maybe bill a few extra hours somewhere and get a black zi...and then i'll pass on my address to you:)
joe
Huck Finn
04-26-2006, 03:08
But if you compare it to an M3, M2, M4, M6, MP or M7, let's talk again in 5 years. Not to mention in 50 years...
Uhh . . . I think that the only comparison being made in this thread was regarding weight & it was only between the ZI & the M3 - & that was only to use the M3 as a point of reference.
So, I think that the answer is . . . No, nobody wants to get into a pissing match to compare the ZI with the long list of Leicas which are mentioned & which vary in weight & build quality among themselves without even mentioning the differences with a ZI.
Actually, I would buy a new m7 now, to go with my existing leica system knowing that it will (most likely) last 50 years, or at least as long as I want it,
Do you truly believe that 50 years from now:
1) the electronics in the M7 will still be working, or those parts and the batteries they need will still be available, and
2) Leica will be in business to CLA/repair your cameras, or
3) There will still be technicians to service your Leicas, and
4) Film and processing will still be available, and
5) You will be alive and have eyesight good enough to use your Leicas?
Oh, I see the escape clause: "or at least as long as I want it." So exactly how long do you want it? :p
There can be a lot of reasons not to buy the Zeiss Ikon, but the "50 year lifespan" is not one of those.
So, I think that the answer is . . . No, nobody wants to get into a pissing match to compare the ZI with the long list of Leicas which are mentioned & which vary in weight & build quality among themselves without even mentioning the differences with a ZI.
What exactly is a "pissing match"? And to what question is this the answer?
And to Mazurka: You're an absolute genius. You just solved all my problems. Thanks to you I finally know what camera to get right now: An all mechanical digital camera. Unless I'm over 30, of course. Brilliant.
There are different kinds of pissing matches: to see who can pee for the longest time, who can jet the farthest, etc. Pissing contests are best done in the outdoors on a nice hiking trail and not by your computer keyboard, whose electronics might not approve of being spattered with salty, corrosive urine. ;)
ZeissFan
07-29-2006, 04:49
"A pissing match" is a nasty exchange over differences in opinion.
Often, but not always, it occurs of small details that don't really matter.
Regarding the use of plastic in the Zeiss Ikon, I notice that Zeiss chose materials carefully and didn't simply use plastic because it was cheaper. There is limited use of plastic in parts that can be seen by the eye. The sprocket wheel and film takeup spool are plastic, which shouldn't be a problem, unless you have the back open and drop the camera.
I thought I would use a screwdriver to scratch parts to see if it's plastic or metal, but that's just insanity.
What is interesting is that people will gladly spend $1,500 on a digital body, knowing in advance that they're probably going to replace it in three or four years.
But they wouldn't spend half of that on a film body and if they did, there is an expectation that it should last 50 years.
Nachkebia
07-29-2006, 04:52
ZeissFan ! where are the updates? waiting for new pictures! :)
Carrotblog
07-29-2006, 06:20
Hi,
I'm looking at the poll results and wondering.
So far, it looks like 20% of owners have had problems with the Zeiss Ikon. Of those who filled out this survey.
Has anyone with a Zeiss Ikon had a chance to compare it to the Voigtlander R2M?
I like the idea of the R2M which seems to have the same finish as the Zeiss Ikon.
xoxoxoxo
Miffy
http://carrotblog.livejournal.com
patrickjames
08-02-2006, 11:39
I think the plastic question is a non issue really. Have you ever tried to break delrin? It is so tough they make screws out of it. Zeiss knows what they are doing. I do not have a ZI yet but it is at the top of the list.
back alley
08-02-2006, 12:07
delrin?
joe
that 20% number is poor representation, I wouldn't base my decision off a poll like this.
back alley
08-02-2006, 12:47
it was never meant to be very scientific...
Joe, my response was to Miffy who seemed to take this seriously. It's obvious this was a curiosity poll :) Afterall, I voted on it way back when first posted, and since then, I've yet to have a problem.
back alley
08-02-2006, 13:31
no worries jano:)
Carrotblog
08-06-2006, 16:09
Joe, my response was to Miffy who seemed to take this seriously. It's obvious this was a curiosity poll Afterall, I voted on it way back when first posted, and since then, I've yet to have a problem.
__________________
lol!
Hi Jano - I was just wondering, that's all.
You must be 1 person of the other 80% who didn't have problems then.
I don't think Joe intended for a scientific poll - this is a forum after all. It's just useful to hear from forum members, since this is a better representation of forum users's responses to a camera. Where else will photographers get reliability data? It's not going to come from the manufacturer! It might come from their competition (!) and any journalistic bias is only ever going to represent the 1 camera submitted to the magazine.
RFF does a great job of pulling in mass opinions where opinions like this would be harder to find elsewhere so thumbs up to RFF. All you need is a decent mouse to scroll through the data and sorted ;)
xoxoxoxo
Miffy
http://carrotblog.livejournal.com
;) Yeup!
message too short, tweedle dum tweedle dee!
Nachkebia
08-11-2006, 13:21
Btw I think I have problem with ZI, I will confirm the problem after couple of more rolls, problem is that on almost all of the rolls I shot two frames are on one frame! I mean as if I did not roll the film and took second exposition, even thought it has moved sligtly..
:( I was a black zeiss ikon owner and I had a problem within the first 2 minutes. The shutter jammed. Now I am no longer a Zeiss Ikon owner....
Less than zero problems.
Does that mean that when you and your friend with the broken ZI put your ZIs together on a table, you find that neither of your ZIs is broken at all?
I wonder how many negative problems your ZI has... You could make a fortune repairing ZIs :)
Wonder if there are any Zeiss Ikon owners who have not had an opportunity for problems due to lack of use; the camera is kept on a shelf or in its box only for fondling, showing to admiring friends, etc. Surely so small a minority not justified for a position on the poll... :)
grantray
09-19-2006, 05:37
If the poll would let me, I would switch my answer from no problems in three months to no problems after six months. And that's heavy use. A day rarely goes by that I'm not lugging it around the city with me.
-grant
I really like the Zeiss Camera and Lenses. They are quality products that will bring years of great photography to whomever owns them.
As it is, I will stick with what I have.
The next camera I buy will be the M8 at which point I will retire the M5's and MP to a display case. Of all the Leica's I have owned over the years, the M5 has been the most durable and a workhorse.
I've got no education in statistics, hell, I'm entirely ignorant
of higher math.
Can anyone shine a light for me on the likely methodological
and mathematical validity of this poll, please? Right now
it shows 24% problems.
No offense intended to the Original Poster, by the way.
I simply can't know with the tools I've got, and I'm probably
not alone.
ZeissFan
11-10-2006, 15:04
The sample in this survey is too small to be significant.
Considering that the initial run was 1,200 "limited edition" cameras and was sold out followed by a run of black bodies (production unknown) and non-LE cameras, it's not known how many cameras have been sold and whether the responses and percentages here are representative of the entire number of cameras out there.
And it doesn't specify the type of problem and whether it was minor (loose knob) or major (non-working shutter or rangefinder issue ... my problem).
This survey addresses a very small portion of the population: Those people who have computers and who can speak English with some degree of comfort and who own this camera and who peruse this site and who decided to vote.
As I said, I think the sample is too small to try to extrapolate that to the entire group of Zeiss Ikon owners.
Interesting? Sure. Does it have any relevance? Who's to say?
Like all online surveys, I find them interesting but not that useful.
back alley
11-11-2006, 09:55
read the whole thread guys, i said this is NOT scientific but a general interest sort of thing.
kshapero
03-21-2008, 06:03
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2107/2223472539_31201d6cbf.jpg?v=0http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/2223504261_ba213e9680.jpg?v=0http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2027/2224259526_036fd15975.jpg?v=0
nikonhswebmaster
03-21-2008, 06:30
This survey addresses a very small portion of the population: Those people who have computers and who can speak English with some degree of comfort and who own this camera and who peruse this site and who decided to vote.
As I said, I think the sample is too small to try to extrapolate that to the entire group of Zeiss Ikon owners.
Interesting? Sure. Does it have any relevance? Who's to say?
Like all online surveys, I find them interesting but not that useful.
It could be that users who tend to have problems might post online. Perhaps the issues with their camera brought them here in the first place?
And of course some problems may be minor.
I am usually more interested in specific issues. If many people report cameras with a specific issue I do begin to worry. My take on the Zi is that it is not perfect, but still a great camera for many users.
Well, a "I'm NOT a Zeiss owner but I'd like to be soon..." ??? ;)
jwhitley
03-21-2008, 09:26
Can anyone shine a light for me on the likely methodological
and mathematical validity of this poll, please? Right now
it shows 24% problems.
As others have stated, it's not intended as a scientific poll. Put more plainly for folks who aren't versed in such things, it has about zero validity. The reasons for its non-validity can include:
self-selection: folks with problems are vastly more likely to find and want to comment on such a poll, conversely a lot of folks without problems may just ignore it
too small of a sample size: i.e. too few respondents to have any idea of the behavior of the population at large
question design bias: the phrasing and structure of a poll can affect whether and how people will respond to it.
ballot-stuffing: internet polls are particularly vulnerable to this, but it may not be an issue here.
Related to ballot-stuffing, one might also ask whether there are any respondents just messing around who don't even own a ZI?
Specific to this kind of poll are misdirected responses. Consider the reviewer (was it on Amazon?) who gave a lens a bad rating because it was dropped from 5-6' height onto concrete... and broke. :bang:From a scientific standpoint, you're safe to assume that any poll which wasn't designed and executed by folks with good experiment design skills is likely not recording what it claims to. That said, simple straw polls do have their place, but I really can't imagine a poll of this type showing useful results, only considering self-selection bias. Do greater than 20% of ZI owners really have problems with their cameras? That sounds very high. Seems that Zeiss, Cosina, and their customers would be flipping out over in-the-field problem rates that high.
nikonhswebmaster
03-21-2008, 11:18
Do greater than 20% of ZI owners really have problems with their cameras? That sounds very high. Seems that Zeiss, Cosina, and their customers would be flipping out over in-the-field problem rates that high.
not really. Dell has a higher number, but the vast majority of the "problems" are actually just with the user. User issues, where people expect the impossible, or just simply do not ever read the manual are the scourge of many companies, and the reason tech is so bad for real issues, they are swamped.
That is why I read very carefully.
foto_fool
03-22-2008, 08:21
Amazing the life of some of these old threads. It's like this thread in "internet time" has already lasted 50 years in "camera time"! Just astounding. But I like seeing them come back.
I have had my ZI for a year as of earlier this month and had zero problems. I love it no less than they day I opened the box from Matsuiyastore. Also, no more. It is a competent camera that does what it is supposed to do. I like how it handles and still love the VF/RF. My only complaints are 1) that the 75mm Summilux brings up the 50mm frameline instead of the 85mm, 2) that it has lost a bit of paint from the sharp edge in front of the hotshoe, and 3) that I can't remember if it came with a diopter screwed into the VF window and if it did it unscrewed itself and I seem to have lost it.
A few comments on the materials questions posed up-topic: First, plastics are often a better choice for some applications than metal (unrelated example, but illustrative - kevlar vests stop bullets and are light enough to wear - can't say that about brass) and it is a bonus that plastic parts are sometimes less expensive to manufacture. Equating "plastic" with "cheap" is a cultural prejudice - not reality. Second, magnesium alloys are lighter and stronger than brass, which is why racing wheels are made of magnesium. They have different failure modes - magnesium breaks while brass usually deforms - but likely the impact that would break a ZI would turn an M3 into a shapeless lump.
EDIT - forgot to add that I could buy four ZI's (which might last, oh, maybe 120 years in series) for the price of a D3 body I will want to upgrade from in 2 or 3 years. Hmmmmm.
sepiareverb
03-22-2008, 08:39
...case smells like fish.
I think some of us have some wacky thing going on with the nose. The O serie case I have smells like fish to me- my wife says it smells like 'fine leather', people pay for that you know.
I think some of us have some wacky thing going on with the nose. The O serie case I have smells like fish to me- my wife says it smells like 'fine leather', people pay for that you know.
what is a "O serie case"??
too small of a sample size: i.e. too few respondents to have any idea of the behavior of the population at large
This was a poll that finished back in 2006! It was originally set up when the camera was relatively new on the market and trying to establish if there were many early production glitches and to that it served its purpose, im not sure why its been resurrected?
Interesting when you compare the results of this poll against that one:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=451
(where more than 40% ZI owners report problems).
Tells you something about polling accuracy :)
thomasw_
03-22-2008, 11:34
Interesting when you compare the results of this poll against that one:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=451
(where more than 40% ZI owners report problems).
Tells you something about polling accuracy :)
Also, it tells us that the wording of a poll is critical. This one is all about those who "ARE OWNERS" now, the other asks about "My ZI HAD...". I can't participate in this one, but I can participate in the other. I had a ZI that had troubles, but not owning one now, there is no spot in this current poll to acknowledge my experience. The wording of the poll options will exclude or include and as such, determine its accuracy. For instance, those who ARE OWNERS, will likely be more pleased, have had less troubles than those who were but aren't now.
back alley
03-22-2008, 11:51
can i also point out that this poll is 2 years old and i am hardly a statistician, tho i am glad that i could spell it!
;)
Also, it tells us that the wording of a poll is critical. This one is all about those who "ARE OWNERS" now, the other asks about "My ZI HAD...". I can't participate in this one, but I can participate in the other. I had a ZI that had troubles, but not owning one now, there is no spot in this current poll to acknowledge my experience. The wording of the poll options will exclude or include and as such, determine its accuracy. For instance, those who ARE OWNERS, will likely be more pleased, have had less troubles than those who were but aren't now.
sounds like an exegesis of a biblical passage ... but please, this was only an attempt to get a simple record of problems.
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