View Full Version : ZI camera + Tri-Elmar lens is a bad match
Has anyone tried a Leica Tri-Elmar on the new ZI body or read anything about having a problem with the frame lines? Only when the lens is set to 28 does the correct 28/85 pair show up in the vf.
When the lens is set to 50 you get the 28/85 lines, and with the lens at 35 you get a combo of the 35 and 50 frames. Wouldn't you think that if the frames are correct on any M camera they would be correct on the ZI?
I know from Tom Abrahamsson's review on the Cameraquest site that a Leica 75 lens will bring up the 50 frames so it seems the Tri Elmar is a similar situation.
Still, it's a fine camera and I look forward to trying it out with some other lenses!
I guess the Tri Elmar stays home...
Jeff
back alley
03-14-2006, 15:23
i don't get any of it either.
why does the same adapter work differently on the m2 than it does on the m3?
same mount same adapter. but it triggers different framelines.
cause it has different frame lines?
did i just answer my own 'wonder'?
boilerdoc2
03-15-2006, 04:47
Try the 75 and you get the 50mm frameline! Not good. Seems the 85 would be better. Better yet would be for ZI to have included the 75 option. Not real happy as the 75 is my favorite lens. Any suggestions?
Steve
Maybe a tiny wedge made of rubber or polyurethane that you could use to hold the frame selector lever at the 85 position? Might work.
boilerdoc2
03-15-2006, 05:46
Or duct tape. That kind of sucks doesn't it?
Steve
Huck Finn
03-15-2006, 06:32
Try the 75 and you get the 50mm frameline! Not good. Seems the 85 would be better. Better yet would be for ZI to have included the 75 option. Not real happy as the 75 is my favorite lens. Any suggestions?
Steve
Buy a camera with 75 frame lines. Leica, Bessa, & Hexar RF cameras all have them.
Obviously the Zeiss Ikon was not designed with the use of this lens in mind. Early Zeiss publicity focused on the benefits of rangefinder photography for use with wide angle lenses. The trade-off with the inclusion of 75 frame lines is that you add clutter to the 50 frame. The inclusion of 135 frame lines only compounds the problem by cluttering the 35 frame as well.
You need the right tool for the right job. The ZI is for those who want clear uncluttered frame lines for normal & wide angle photography. The one compromise is to provide on additional set of frame lines for a longer portrait length lens. the ZI is not the right tool for shooting the 75 mm field of view.
Huck
JoeFriday
03-15-2006, 06:56
no offense, Huck... but that would be like a Chrysler engineer telling someone who is complaining that all their cars shimmy at 60mph, "well don't drive at 60mph then"
altho I understand your point.. buying a body that doesn't have 75mm framelines, and then complaining that it doesn't have 75mm framelines after the fact doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either
"Wouldn't you think that if the frames are correct on any M camera they would be correct on the ZI?"
No. This lens was not designed to work on the Z1.
jan normandale
03-15-2006, 07:29
'cause I'm not buying a ZI (I have a Yashica); I'm not worried about those frame lines Joe Friday!
(humour/joke... no thread hijacking intended)
The lack of 75mm framelines is the number one reason I stopped thinking about buying an Ikon. I love my 75mm/2 Apo Summicron ASPH, and I already have M7 and Hexar RF bodies. That has not stopped me from buying several of the Biogons and the Planar to stick on them.
Maybe Zeiss should offer something like the Leica "a la carte" program so that those of us who want the M4P frameline set could pay a bit more and get the 75mm, 90mm and 135mm framelines. I've a feeling Zeiss would rather sell more 85mm/2 Sonnars than custom bodies though.
Huck Finn
03-15-2006, 09:23
no offense, Huck... but that would be like a Chrysler engineer telling someone who is complaining that all their cars shimmy at 60mph, "well don't drive at 60mph then"
Not quite, Joe. A shimmy is a malfunction. It either means that there is something wrong with the car or that it was poorly built in the first place. A better analogy would be having someone complain that there car doesn't have cruise control after they bought the car without it. The car functions perfectly well without it.
There are plenty of cameras that don't have the full spectrum of frame lines 28 - 135. I have never before seen anyone criticize a Bessa or a Leica M .85x because they lack 28 frame lines. Plenty of Leicas don't even have a 75 frame: M3, M2, M4, M5, & M4-2, not to mention the CL. Lots of people love the viewfinders on these cameras precisely because they DON'T have extra frame lines to clutter up the viewfinder. A 75 mm lens is not exactly the world's most popular focal length.
Fans of the 75 focal length - & I include myself - have several choices with the ZI. Use the 85 frame lines & guesstimate. Since the 75 FOV is wider than 85, at least you won't be cutting anything out, chopping off heads & limbs, etc. Or you can use an ausiliary finder - just as Bessa owners have to do with the 28 mm focal length. Or you can get a body that does have 75 frame lines - right tool for the job.
Zeiss had choices to make in designing this camera. Everything is a compromise. They chose to unclutter. The price was to eliminate 75 lines. At least it's one more piece of evidence that the ZI is not just a "re-badged Bessa."
Huck
Huck Finn
03-15-2006, 09:30
Maybe Zeiss should offer something like the Leica "a la carte" program so that those of us who want the M4P frameline set could pay a bit more and get the 75mm, 90mm and 135mm framelines. I've a feeling Zeiss would rather sell more 85mm/2 Sonnars than custom bodies though.
I don't think that Zeiss is excluding 75 frame lines in order to sell 85 lenses. Pick up the April issue of Shutterbug. Roger Hicks & Frances Schultz do a nice job in their ZI review of comparing frame line size from various cameras. Surprisingly, the ZI 85 frame is actually smaller than the 90 frame from some other RF cameras! In other words, any M-mount 90 mm lens will work just as well with the ZI 85 frame as it will with a frame labeled "90". The 90 lens will also call up the 85 frame automatically. So, the ZI user is far from limited to just the ZM 85/2. There are all those great 90s out there to choose from.
Huck
Another option for 75mm lovers is to get the CV 75/2.5 and use a 90mm adaptor. This will bring up the 85mm framelines, which will give presumably more ideal frames for the 75.
Once I receive my ZI I will do tests with my brother's CV 75 using a 90mm adaptor and see how much is left out.
boilerdoc2
03-16-2006, 05:47
Can see I generated a lively discussion here!
I would use the 85 frame lines if I could make the ZI bring up the 85 frameline. I.e. since the lines are 'automatic', the only way is to hold the frame line lever while trying to focus, etc. Ain't gonna work.
Additionally when I put my new CV 50 Nokton on I get the 28/85 lines. What's that all about? I am taking it back and get the M7 on the shelf at Jack's Camera.
Steve
The 50 Nokton is a LTM lens, isn't it?
Looks as if the ZI is not for you, bad luck but things like this happen.
I don't think that Zeiss is excluding 75 frame lines in order to sell 85 lenses. Pick up the April issue of Shutterbug. Roger Hicks & Frances Schultz do a nice job in their ZI review of comparing frame line size from various cameras. Surprisingly, the ZI 85 frame is actually smaller than the 90 frame from some other RF cameras! In other words, any M-mount 90 mm lens will work just as well with the ZI 85 frame as it will with a frame labeled "90". The 90 lens will also call up the 85 frame automatically. So, the ZI user is far from limited to just the ZM 85/2. There are all those great 90s out there to choose from.
Huck
Hey Huck, I'm sure there were many factors in Zeiss' decision not to put 75mm framelines in the Ikon. They probably wanted to keep the 50mm frameline clean, unlike Leica's M4P/M6/M7/MP finders. However, I'm sure that they do want to sell 85mm lenses or they would not be selling them. There are lots of old LTM 85mms from Zeiss and Nikon out there that would be good for the Ikon camera too. To be accurate with framing a 75mm M-mount (non-LTM) lens, you could put a Voigtländer 75mm auxiliary finder on the Ikon. The field of view of a 75mm is very different from a 90mm or 85mm lens.
That is by design. All 75 M lenses look like a 50 lens to any Leica, Hexar or Zeiss Ikon.
If you have an LTM 75, try a 28/90 adapter to bring up the 85 framelines, but they are still not 75 framelines.
/Håkan
Try the 75 and you get the 50mm frameline! Not good. Seems the 85 would be better. Better yet would be for ZI to have included the 75 option. Not real happy as the 75 is my favorite lens. Any suggestions?
Steve
Ronald M
03-16-2006, 07:09
CV 75mm finder is nicely made. Steve has `em on sale with the lens for only few dollars extra .
boilerdoc2
03-16-2006, 09:35
What i should do maybe is trade the 50 CV Nocton, 75 - lux, and the 90 -rit to get the 85 Sonnar, whenever it is available. Still have the 50 Noctilux as a 'normal' lens. Has anyone seen one of the 85's yet? Thanx
Steve
If you go to the Zeiss Ikon website. Then go to 'downloads' and you look at the ZI brochure, towards the bottom there is a small photograph of the 85/2. Apparently its pretty hefty, but if you're used to the 75 Summilux it might not be a problem.
mr roberts
03-16-2006, 10:21
but still I don't get it. If the Tri-Elmar brings up the correct frame lines on an M why would it not bring up the correct frames on a ZI?
If you mount the ZM 50 Planar on a ZI you get the 50 lines and if you mount it on an M you get the 50 lines. If you mount a 50 Summicron on either body I would assume that you'd get the 50 frame. So why doesn't the 50 position on the Tri-Elmar produce the same result on the ZI that it would on an M body?
Same with the mentioned 35 issue. If the individual lenses bring up the appropriate framelines on both ZI and M bodies why the issue with the E3?
Lots of good discussion on 75 framelines though.
boilerdoc2
03-16-2006, 11:09
Thanx Kyle. Also hefty price ($2750) according to Adorama. But the quality of these lenses is amazing. At least the 25/4 I have is (400 lpm), and that is Japanese, not German, made. I'm still going to look at the Leica M7 this evening.
Steve
triplefinger
03-16-2006, 11:28
Hello, just my 2 cents here.
i started testing 85s in anticipation of a yet to be purchased ZI RF. and tried to find a reasonable lens $ vs sharpness and look. I have a great and wonderfully sharp OLD 90/4 elmar but there's just something about having an 85 where an 85 is intended.
jupiter-9: good, not near as sharp as the elmar but really looked cool.
nikkor 85/2 silver: awesome, sharp, contrasty and nice intangibles.
i shot the kodak 400 pro(c-41) black and white for the tests and did a few head shots recently with the nikkor. pleased.
I kept the nikkor and would recommend it to anyone. I think I paid $285 with case and shade on ebay.
All that said, if a pile of money fell on me, i'd still go get the ZM 85, because it would match!
:D
I don't think that Zeiss is excluding 75 frame lines in order to sell 85 lenses. Pick up the April issue of Shutterbug. Roger Hicks & Frances Schultz do a nice job in their ZI review of comparing frame line size from various cameras. Surprisingly, the ZI 85 frame is actually smaller than the 90 frame from some other RF cameras! In other words, any M-mount 90 mm lens will work just as well with the ZI 85 frame as it will with a frame labeled "90". The 90 lens will also call up the 85 frame automatically. So, the ZI user is far from limited to just the ZM 85/2. There are all those great 90s out there to choose from.
Huck
Additionally when I put my new CV 50 Nokton on I get the 28/85 lines. What's that all about? I am taking it back and get the M7 on the shelf at Jack's Camera.Hi Steve -- I expect it's because you have the wrong screw-to-bayonet adaptor on your 50 Nokton; specifically the 28/90 adaptor. This is not an issue with the Bessa cameras because the frameline selection is manual. But on a Leica M or the Z-I with automatic framelines it does matter. If you put the 50/75 adaptor on your Nokton I'd say your problem is solved without an expensive trade-in. FWIW, I used to work at Jack's Camera... but that was long ago and far away in Rapid City SD. :)
JoeFriday
03-16-2006, 12:45
I think Zeiss should have designed the ZI for the Helios-103 with 53mm framelines.. and if you put a 50mm lens on it, the 35mm frame would show up.. ha!
Huck Finn
03-16-2006, 15:14
I have a great and wonderfully sharp OLD 90/4 elmar but there's just something about having an 85 where an 85 is intended.
Traditionally 85 has been the Zeiss portrait length - Contax G excluded. So, yes, 85 is what's intended. But this is also an M-mount camera, so it was also intended that M-mount lenses be used. Any 90 M-mount lens will bring up the 85 frame.
Take a look at the current (April) issue of Shutterbug where Roger Hicks & Frances Schultz do an interesting comparison of frame lines as part of their review of the ZI. In most cases, the "90" frame lines are actually wider than the "85" frame lines on the ZI, which is supposed to be accomodating the wider 85 field of view. bottom line . . . the ZI will work as well with a 90 as just about any other camera out there. These frame lines are not that precise.
Huck
back alley
03-16-2006, 16:23
has anyone tried the collapsible 90/4 elmar on the zi?
can it collapse all the way?
i have film in mine so can't do a check just now.
These frame lines are not that precise.Yes, typical, and what's more they don't change size as you focus to correct for field-size changes. Precise framing is just not there... yet somehow that doesn't prevent us from making well-framed photos. :)
back alley
03-16-2006, 17:51
do you think a 100mm lens with 85mm fl would be pushing it too much?
It should work. Have you tried it on more than one ZI body? Have you tried wiggling the frame selector and see if it changes its mind?
/Håkan
but still I don't get it. If the Tri-Elmar brings up the correct frame lines on an M why would it not bring up the correct frames on a ZI?
It should work. Have you tried it on more than one ZI body? Have you tried wiggling the frame selector and see if it changes its mind?
/Håkan
but still I don't get it. If the Tri-Elmar brings up the correct frame lines on an M why would it not bring up the correct frames on a ZI?
Yup- I wiggled and jiggled, but no change. They're just not compatible :bang:
Jeff
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