View Full Version : No light meter.....liberating???
I just received the prints from my first roll with the new (to me) M2. Since I have been using an M6 for the last few years, I had a bit of trepidation regarding the lack of a built in meter. I usually set the exposure where I think it should be and use the internal meter to "fine tune".
Well, it seems that the lack of "fine tuning" ability has actually improved my results. I noticed when I was shooting that I was less distracted. I was better able to focus on my composition. I shoot print film so there is a bit of wiggle room. But my exposures were pretty spot on. I feel a certain sense of liberation. Somehow a little more grounded in the art of imprinting the image.
I might just take the battery out of my M6.
Anyone else experienced this???
barry
Yes, that is it, that is how I feel when I stroll around without a metered camera.
shutterflower
02-18-2006, 13:13
Never experienced that, but then I don't have any experience judging exposures with the eye. I sometimes guess at it, but am usually off by a fair bit. My dad can guess impossible meterings - on the money - and he doesn't even own a camera, doesn't even take pictures.
ErnestoJL
02-18-2006, 13:25
Hummmm......having no meter at hand is still a challenge for me!!!!!
I´ll try it only when I get the right level of confidence in my judgement (it is when my guesstimation is confirmed by a handheld meter), but anyway I think it´s the best way to go.
I guess this (no meter) allows oneself to "liberate" and "do", disregarding the extra information that would distract or delay us from the subject and composition.
Regards
Ernesto
In many situations, you only need to guess, or meter, once, then adjust mentally for more shaded or backlit scenes. But when the meter is built in, there's a tendency to meter every shot, which takes away from the flow. My guesstimates are sometimes off, so I take that first reading with a hand meter.
Gene
I have found I am excellent on guessimating exposure however I do not want to be bothered with having to think through that aspect and would rather be concentrating on finding subjects, composing my shots and think about DOF and compensating for backlit subjects and whatnot. I therefore like in-camera metering. That said I highly dislike aperture-priority cameras, at least for my more serious B&W street work, as I find I get lazy and just shoot away rather than consider compensating for perhaps better exposure under tricky lighting scenes and working creatively with DOF, etc. First I bought a VC R3A and disliked the AE, then got an M3 and found I wanted at least "match-needle" metering, now I have the MP and am in heaven. (Yes, I know the R3A can be used in manual mode but it's not quite the same....)
I almost never have a meter anymore-at least with the Leica-and though I shoot mostly TriX I do a bit of slide film too-almost never a useless shot. With color print film, a meter is almost just a distraction.
If you use a camera's internal reflected light meter incorrectly and "chase the needle" then yes, using no light meter at all can be liberating. Using the camera's meter differently, or using a handheld incident meter, is truly liberating. IMO
Honu-Hugger
02-18-2006, 14:45
I was forced to take pictures during a trip last weekend with no meter; after the first day the glass came loose on a newly refurbished Weston III and it was the only meter I had with me. "Sunny 16" and a lot of good luck prevailed. Given the choice I'd still prefer to have one if only as a security blanket.
The good old "Sunny 16" actually works quite well! I remember when I got my Hasselblad I was so exited I rushed out without bringing my lightmeter, and the camera was loaded with slide film, doh... But using Sunny 16, 9 out of 12 frames came out good!
So using a forgiving film like Tri-X is really no problem without a meter.
Sunny day no problem, overcast day no problem, in shade no problem, indoors bright flourescents no problem, indoors household lighting no problem, but the stuff in between is sometimes tricky to guess.
My shots with the Tower 51 were sans meter, and I loved the experience.
to me, it's just inconvenient. tricky light is *everywhere*.
richard_l
02-18-2006, 16:34
to me, it's just inconvenient. tricky light is *everywhere*.How does a built-in meter help with "tricky light?"
For me a meter (preferably built-in) is a valuable aide. Not to say I haven't grabbed a shot with a non-metered camera just by applying and adusting the S-16 rule - but I like the "advice" a meter provides.
But it is advice, not a command.
I find that most meters tend to "err" on the side of slight over-exposure, so I usually adjust for a slight under-exposure.
Fortunately, given the latitude of most film - this is a narrow enough range that I can make fairly small adjustments in PS (particularly with B&W).
How does a built-in meter help with "tricky light?"
By the photographer knowing the light is tricky, knowing how the meter might be being "fooled" and adjusting for it. Classic case is a backlit subject that you do not want in silhouette.
I spent a few months with meterless Zorkis and Kiev honing my Sunny 16 meter. Now that I have the Bessa R (with a very nice built in meter) I find myself making the settings before looking in the viewfinder ... and I find the meter generally agrees with my settings. The meter is very useful for telling me when I've left a lens cap on though.
Peter
when i use a meter less camera i still carry around an incident meter. however, I find myself adjusting the shutter/aperture much less. And when I move from one lighting condition to another, I can easily stop up or down a few.
However, it's not really much more liberating for me. I'd still choose meter over meterless anyday.
Graybeard
02-19-2006, 04:50
Sunny day no problem, overcast day no problem, in shade no problem, indoors bright flourescents no problem, indoors household lighting no problem, but the stuff in between is sometimes tricky to guess.
Agreed. Deep shade outdoors and away from normal lighting indoors are the tricky ones. Outside away from cover and any normally lighted indoor scenes are pretty consistent in light intensity and simple to expose properly without a meter.
SolaresLarrave
02-19-2006, 05:17
A daily walk with an M3 and a Sekonic handheld meter has turned me into a fairly efficient exposure guesser. At times, my settings are a stop off, but three out of five times, they're on target. But call this liberating?
Nope for me. Not in the absolute sense. Challenging, yes, but liberating? I don't even know what it frees me from... It's just another symptom of our love of anachronisms! :)
I just recently bought a small handheld incident meter to replace one that broke about seven or eight years ago. I shoot only meterless cameras and relied on experience over the past half-dozen years. I didn't miss any shots for exposure reasons -- using mainly 400-speed negative film. But I do find I'm a little quicker now that I have a meter again and don't have to do so much calculation in my head.
For color slides (or digital shot on M) I'd very much want to use an accurate meter. I started using meterless cameras close to 20 years ago and did find it liberating not to be "chasing" the needle or diodes.
I think that difficult light is difficult light, regardless of whether you're using a meter or calculating based on experience. That part of photographic craftsmanship that depends on learning and mastering skills includes learning to judge different light conditions. Nearly all the metering advances in camera technology the past 30 years have been based on helping a TTL meter read light as accurately as a handheld incident meter or the sunny-16 rule.
For learning to judge light yourself, it's useful to realize that, with 400-speed film, there are only 14 total f/stop-shutter-speed combinations that fall into the handholdable range of 1/8th second at f/1.4 to 1000 @ f/16. With Sunny-16, I used two mental anchors, not one. Sunny-16 (and it's corrolary, Winter Gloom 4, which is a typical overcast day) plus indoors f/4, which is a brightly lit indoor office or "Rembrandt" light from a north-facing window, at a shutter speed of 1/60. The indoor-4 rule is very helpful for things llike dark forests, where you can learn to judge whether it seems to be as bright as a well-lit room.
Michael I.
02-19-2006, 05:58
I believe in using your meter once at the beginning of the shot and then adjusting for darker objects shadows etc.When I shoot outdoors with meterless cameras I rarely use a meter at all,only when difficult lighting conditions arise.
Yes, like Vince I have more than 1 exposure anchor point. Mine are (with 400asa film)
1/1000sec at f11 for sunny day,
open up 3 stops from that for open shade, so 1/250 at f8
1/60 at f4 for diffused windowlight and bight interior flourescents, and
1/30 at f2 for household light.
Stephanie Brim
02-19-2006, 06:05
I pretty much go by the same standards Frank does and hardly pull out a meter anymore, but I *am* going to have to start since I want to push a lot of my film. The Ultimate Exposure Calculator (hopefully everyone knows where that is by now) helps out a bit, too. I keep a copy of it in my 'camera bag' just in case I forget something. :)
amateriat
02-19-2006, 06:07
I think you're a slave to a light meter (built-in or external) only so far as you misunderstand – or are mystified by – what it's attempting to tell you. Learn a particular metering system's characteristics, and its relationship to what you want, and you'll be led by the nose no longer.
Even though my first 35 had a built-in meter (see thread on "What was your first RF?"), that only one of all the 35s I've owned since then was meterless, and that every camera I currently own has AE capability, I also got myself a handheld meter about two years ago (used Sekonic L428 with spot, reflective and enlarger attachments), which has come in handy on more occasions than I might've guessed.
- Barrett
I think AE is a great thing, if you know how to use it properly. In many cases that means pointing the camera and taking a reading (and holding that reading) from something quite different than the scene you will actually be shooting.
back alley
02-19-2006, 06:17
i'm using the meter in the zi the same way as i use a handheld. i point it to the ground, hit the ae lock button and compose and shoot.
i like not having a meter in the camera but i have to admit that it's nice not having to carry an extra item when travelling w/o a bag or with just one camera and one lens.
You've got it right, Joe.
Ken Ford
02-19-2006, 06:20
I used to have a great eye for exposure (at least good enough fro Tri-X), but sadly that's a skill that left the building. I do find that I prefer to take incident readings rather than use a TTL meter. Hopefully I can get the eye back with more regular shooting - at least good enough for XP-2 Super!
But, yes - I agree - working without a meter can be liberating!
Ken, you can use the camera's TTL reflect light meter like an incident meter by pointing the camera to a medium grey reflecting surface, like the ground. :)
I always thought it funny to see (usually photo students) carry around and take readings from grey cards, when there is so much around that has a similar refectance.
yossarian
02-19-2006, 06:44
At least once a year I make myself shoot a roll of chrome under a variety of light
values, sans meter--no cheating. I've never gotten a "perfect" roll, but I do OK.
Fred
FrankS: >>I think AE is a great thing, if you know how to use it properly. In many cases that means pointing the camera and taking a reading (and holding that reading) from something quite different than the scene you will actually be shooting.<<
That's really the trick for using any in-camera metering system. That'salso how I stay sane with my digital point-and-shoot.
Ken Ford
02-19-2006, 10:44
Ken, you can use the camera's TTL reflect light meter like an incident meter by pointing the camera to a medium grey reflecting surface, like the ground. :)
I always thought it funny to see (usually photo students) carry around and take readings from grey cards, when there is so much around that has a similar refectance.
That's what I frequently do when I don't have an incident meter with me. Shoot my palm and stop down 2/3 of a stop. However, that's not an option when I shoot my F2 bodies - no meter at all!
Having a M body with a meter is going to be an odd experience...
Bertram2
02-19-2006, 14:48
I
Well, it seems that the lack of "fine tuning" ability has actually improved my results. I noticed when I was shooting that I was less distracted. I was better able to focus on my composition.
barry
If so, your consequence should be an AE camera but not to guess the light.
Bertram
If so, your consequence should be an AE camera but not to guess the light.
Bertram
Hmmm....There's a point there in favor of AE. But a great deal of my enjoyment of the photographic process is full control. I see it as taking an image and transferring my brain's interpretation of that image onto a light sensitive emulsion. I realize the true test of one's art is in the results. But somehow letting the camera make some of the decisions lessens my reward.
That, and of course the fact that AE cameras are battery dependent. So when I'm in the Arctic Circle or on a remote stretch of the the Serengeti and my batteries fail. Or I'm hunkered down in my foxhole during active combat and my CPU goes haywire........................................... ......
Sorry. I must have dozed off there for a moment. Well, you know what I mean.
barry
Hey Barry--I notice you are from Atlanta and that you have a "new" M2.
Did it come from Wing's foto by any chance? They had a really nice one for a while--maybe that's yours now!
Paul
Hey Barry--I notice you are from Atlanta and that you have a "new" M2.
Did it come from Wing's foto by any chance? They had a really nice one for a while--maybe that's yours now!
Paul
Yes. That's the one. It came with the 80's tabbed summicron.
Was it yours??? ;)
b
Bertram2
02-19-2006, 17:35
But a great deal of my enjoyment of the photographic process is full control.
barry
I think I see what you mean. But is guessing light "full control" ? And if you must grab your shot within a second, won't AE guess ( and set !!) better and faster than you can ?
The idea of "liberation" is nice (and pointing to the right direction in principle !) but you always pay for it. With lost or messed up results. If that does'nt really matter for a photog the total freedom can come with a disposable camera too. ;)
Bertram
[QUOTE=Bertram2]I think I see what you mean. But is guessing light "full control" ?
I don't consider estimating an exposure "guessing". AE meters don't know what you want to put on the film. Some exposure compensation is often required. I prefer to set it manually from the start. The observation that led to my original post was after setting the exposure, I have a tendency to let the meter distract me.
Let's say you use a built in exposure meter. You meter a backlit subject. As you recompose, the meter will now show overexposure. (Provided you were not atttempting a silhouette shot). Should this distract me? No. As Frank pointed out in an earlier post one should not "chase the needle". In practice does this create another variable that draws my attention away from the subject? Maybe.
Would I shun an external meter in favor of an estimate based on prior experience? No. I just don't currently own one. It does seem like a good compromise though. Use an external meter for the original reading. Get confirmation of correct exposure early on and make any subtle changes based on experience. No blinking arrows in the viewfinder to tempt you into taking another reading. Any recommendations for a small (cheap) handheld meter? Not really interested in the shoe mounted meters Leica or VC.
Ken, you can use the camera's TTL reflect light meter like an incident meter by pointing the camera to a medium grey reflecting surface, like the ground. :)
I always thought it funny to see (usually photo students) carry around and take readings from grey cards, when there is so much around that has a similar refectance.
Hi Frank! I shoot with a VC meter and I've always been shooting my palm. I usually take a reading with my palm at an angle (upward). I think I get a decent enough reading although I wonder if I should be taking a reading off the back of my hand. The reading off of the back of my hand is a whole stop different from my palms. I've always wanted a small incident meter like a Gossen Digisix but your advice gives me a little more confidence in the equipment I already own.
I will try taking a reading off the ground on my next roll. Just one question, when you mean "ground" do you mean concrete?
Thanks!
Taffy
Philippines
Hey, Taffy. The ground could be ashalt, grass, dirt, or concrete. Concrete would be a bit lighter than 18% grey, just like your palm is a bit lighter than 18% grey. Open up a stop from your palm or from light coloured concrete. The bright blue sky (with no sun) is 18% refectance too, but then if you're seeing bright blue sky, that's simply sunny-16.
Hey, Taffy. The ground could be ashalt, grass, dirt, or concrete. Concrete would be a bit lighter than 18% grey, just like your palm is a bit lighter than 18% grey. Open up a stop from your palm or from light coloured concrete. The bright blue sky (with no sun) is 18% refectance too, but then if you're seeing bright blue sky, that's simply sunny-16.
Thanks a lot Frank! I'll try this right away :)
Bertram2
02-20-2006, 03:01
[QUOTE=Bertram2]
Would I shun an external meter in favor of an estimate based on prior experience? No. I just don't currently own one. It does seem like a good compromise though. Use an external meter for the original reading. Get confirmation of correct exposure early on and make any subtle changes based on experience.
[QUOTE=barry]
The external meter is even more than a good compromise for me, if it can read incident light.
Holding it up over my head, the diffusor pointing backwards, gives me a reliable basis value for the given illumination which can be adjusted from frame to frame if necessary.
This way of of exposing often produces more hits than the reflecting metering of the camera does. One has to be attentive tho , the light changes fast sometimes, two little clouds can make a full stop or two and it's time for a new basis value then.
If I got time enuff I prefer this way of metering too. If there is no time I prefer to rely on AE and knowing the pattern and considering the deviations of reflective metering I correct it from frame to frame with the +/- button.
Bertram
Ken Ford
02-20-2006, 05:08
Taffy, I wouldn't use the back of your hand - most people lighten and darken as the seasons change. Your palm is relatively stable.
When I'm using a TTL meter like this (like I do with my DSLRs), I actually dial the 2/3 stop correction needed for my palm right in to the camera - it's easier than always remembering to stop down! The danger, of course, is that you have to remember not to meter a scene directly.
Hi Barry and congrats!! That was/is some nice camera! A beauty but my GAS had gotten out of hand and I had to recluctantly watch it sit in the case for a few days....painful! It was certainly one of the nicer M2s around.
Mike and crew are a pleasure to deal with.
They have the "tent event" on 1 April---might be an ominous date--but Rob and Walker and I are talking about meeting there sometime during the day. Please bring the new M2 so we can oooo and ahhh some more!
Paul
OOPS! To answer your question Barry---no that wasn't my camera..no idea where it came from.
Paul
They have the "tent event" on 1 April---might be an ominous date--but Rob and Walker and I are talking about meeting there sometime during the day. Please bring the new M2 so we can oooo and ahhh some more!
Paul
Let me know when you will be over there. It would be nice to meet some forum members.
It will indeed and we'll try to set a time good for everyone.
Enjoy the M2..
Paul
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