Increased R3A price

[hoppinghippos]

Just got news on CVUG that cameraquest has increased the price of R3A and R2A to $599 from $499! :( And Stephen said the reason was due to the US dollar not doing well currently. :confused: Well I checked www.xe.com and the US dollar dropped by peanuts to the yen compared to the increase from 499 to 599. :bang: :mad:

Qn here is, what's going on? obviously it ain't the whole truth. Is it increased pricing due to perceived large demand from all the forum talk prior to the R3A and R2A's release? Or is the camera genetically linked to crude oil and hence follows the oil's jump?

I think once the price was pegged, they really shouldn't just change it like that, and by such a large margin too. Doesn't feel right. In any case I am seriously reconsidering getting a R3A.

Sorry just had to air my frustrations! Guess this is yet another justification on why I should edge towards that elusive Red Dot! :p

[jpmccormac]

I suspect the increase is due to demand - real or perceived. Early adopters will pucker up and pay the going rate.

I like the idea of the R2a/R3a and the new 40mm lens, but I am willing to wait six months or so until the reviews are in. Besides it will be six months before I finish off the roll of film in my Canonet QL III 17 (which has a nice 40mm lens also.)

[sfaust]

I'm more than happy to ante up an extra $100 to add AE to my R2. But also in the process, I get a 1:1 finder. I was actually surprised that they would offer more features than the R2 for the same price. I had expected a $100-150 price increase. Luckily, I put a deposit on the R3a at the $499 price, and that price will be honored :)

But, I would have ordered one at $599 anyway. Sure beats an M7 at $2,500+! I could buy two R3a's which would be more reliable, and have enough left over for a couple nice Leica lenses.

[JohnM]

According to Stephen Gandy, if you buy it today, you get the $499 price.

[Taipei-metro]

Do not pre-order the R2A, R3A (I am blank why people are doing that, I have my kids' piano lessons to be paid and also there are tons of cameras to be explored),then the price will come down.
Just remember, no Japanese camera increase their price before or after their issue date, All Japanese cameras drop prices after issue date. One example, Nikon S3 (2000 reissue),$6,000, now? $2,500 in US, $2,000 or less in Asia.
In the history of Cosina products never had one camera or lens hold its price after street date.

[Taipei-metro]

Just on the news, Japan was hit by a 6.2 earthquake AGAIN, hope no Cosina factory or worker injured which may truely have a price increase.

[Rich Silfver]

I hope no one was injured - regardless of where they work.

[rover]

Originally posted by Rich Silfver
I hope no one was injured - regardless of where they work.

You beat me to it Richard.

Let's hope all are well.

[Natron]

I went to cameraquest.com today fully ready to preorder an R2A and saw the $100 increase. Needless to say, increasing the price because of demand seems shady to me and his site will not be receiving my business.

[sfaust]

Navtron, Go back and pre-order. From what I heard you will still get the $499 price.

For what its worth, I undersand that Cosina sets the prices for the dealers. Cosina raised the price and the dealers have to follow suit or loose money selling the product. CameraQuest, or any other Cosina/Bessa dealer can't just increase the price on their own by agreement. At least thats my understanding of how it works. If thats the case, holding CameraQuest accountable for the manufacturers issues is a disservice to the dealer. If its not the case, I'm with you.

[Huck Finn]

I received an e-mail reply from Stephen Gandy at Cameraquest yesterday, saying that he will continue to take deposits for the R2A & R3A at the original price of $499 for a few days. PhotoVillage has not announced a price increase & is continuing to take names for sales at $499.

What's going on, you ask, Darrel? Among other things, Leica announced a price increase effective January, just as they did last year. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess.

[hoppinghippos]

Huck Finn, is this confirmed? so if you pay the deposit now the $499 is 100% confirmed? cuz if later you realise its 599 and not 499 and your deposit is paid... :bang:

but if its really true then it is most strange isn't it? It contradicts the "dealer price is fixed by cosina and not dealer" theory? Cuz now the $599 price has been fixed and yet cameraquest can choose to still offer 499 for a few more days? but if its true, then I may be interested in getting it. sigh.. dodgy dodgy stuff here.

And anyone have any idea on when the camera prices will start to fall? 6 months later? 1 year? Anyone rem R2's prices in the past and when they changed?

[peter_n]

Stephen probably has a quota of bodies at the old price, so he honors that until they run out then he charges the new price 'cos he's paying CV the increased price for the body.

[sfaust]

Thats my understanding. He already had an order for a specific number of bodies, and will honor the price on those bodies. But once they are gone, the new price will prevail. Stephen Gandy is active in a couple other lists, and that the info that is being kicked around. I have no reason to believe otherwise, as he has a good reputation as a fair and equitable dealer.

[hoppinghippos]

I have emailed him and he says 499 only applies to orders ALREADY placed so even if you deposit now it doesn't count. so hey it's back to 599.

[sfaust]

The first order must be sold out :( Not surprized at $499 (or even $599) compared to $2500 for a M7 with equivalent features.

Any idea on when they might be shipping? I'd like to put my R2 up for sale, but don't want to be without the R2 for too long while waiting for the R3a to arrive.

[Peter]

Keep your R2 Stephen as according to Gandy, only about 8000 R2 were produced. Own a piece of RF history!

[peter_n]

Any idea on when they might be shipping?

Stephen, the estimated availability is mid-November for the R3A, mid-January for the R2A.

[rover]

I am hoping that we will get a little peak from the Japanese photography press in the form of reviews of the cameras and/or lenses soon.

[hjfischer]

No one likes price increases, but for us R2 owners our cameras will hold their value awhile longer with the increased prices for the R2a's and R3a's!

[Huck Finn]

American buyers have been spoiled with the price of the R2. It has gone for much more in Europe.

[back alley]

American buyers have been spoiled with the price of the R2. It has gone for much more in Europe.

and in canada also.

i paid 600 cdn for my r.
(well, 559)

joe

[Taipei-metro]

Exxon/Mobil sayz, American motorists' been spoiled and should be grateful about the $2.45 a gallon gas price today, the European's been paying $4.50 a gallon for years.
EVERYTHING is expensive in Europe,the tax, rent, film processing, angenieux lenses ,big Mac, electricity, water...
No mail order tax and free trade in US keep the R, R2 cheaper, a $499 R2 w 17.50% tax will be how much, $586, R2A will be $703, cheap or expensive?
If lens is your consideration, get the 40mm f2 Ultron($280 street), mount on your FE2, there you go, a R2a simulation.
"You have to get it today to beat the price increase tomorrow!"
Am I in a Ford show room?
CV R2, R2a is still the same price in Japan.
Of course I know the FE2 is a SLR.

[Taipei-metro]

Originally posted by Huck Finn
American buyers have been spoiled with the price of the R2. It has gone for much more in Europe.
Your forefather fought and died for an independent US of A for unfair taxation and social injustice to creat a country for the people of true freedom.
Because of unfairness in Europe,you have created a great country that believed in true free trade that the people can buy the best quality merchaindise for the best price. Now should we,you, like Europeans paying high price in the US? US IS NOT EUROPE.

[digitalox]

OK all lets not make this a political debate! Lets just wait and see what happens with the pricing, the camera is not even out yet. :) Irregardless, ~100 over the prior model isn't that much for all the new features

Regards,

Scott

[back alley]

i don't mind a price increase (lying) but before the camera is even released is kinda hard to take (truth).

did they really just realize, a couple of weeks after the announcement, that, gee, we made a mistake here, it's gonna cost 100 bucks more than we thought??(feigning incredulity)

i love cameras and photography but business is much harder to take. (truth, major truth)

joe

[peter_n]

They are either reacting to the demand or an increase in their costs. I'm sure they didn't look up the number in a random number table to arrive at the price.

Interesting that the price increase came after Photokina where they would have talked to a large number of people...

[Huck Finn]

Taipei-Metro, the Cosina website in Japan lists the price of the R2A & R3A as 75,000 yen ($707 USD). Is that what they are actually selling for on the street in Japan?

Our theory here has been that $499 was for cameras from the initial allocation & that there is a price increase from the factory for the next order. If the price has not gone up in Japan, perhaps this theory is not correct. However, the fact that Photo Village has now also raised its price does indicate that it was not a unilateral action by Stephen Gandy but that other forces are at work.

Just speculation . . . I wonder to what extent their new roles as "distributors" may be a factor for Cameraquest & Photo Village. In the past they have been grey market importers, free to set their prices wherever they wanted. This is one of the things that has kept American CV prices down. In contrast, Cosina has had a network of distributors in Europe. This extra layer of corporate infrastructure creates an extra layer of cost. Hence higher prices in Europe. Higher taxes too, as Taipei-Metro so aptly points out.

"Distributors" do not normally undercut their retailers. If, for example, B&H is now acquiring its CV products through Photo Village & Photo Village adds a cost for the service, B&H must now charge a higher price, reflecting their new higher costs. At the same time, the Photo Village price would also rise to avoid undercutting their retailer. This dual role of "distributor" & retailer creates inherent conflicts of interest for CQ & PV. They may still be working out the kinks in this arrangement.

Of course, if PV & CQ are not true distributors but hold that designation only nominally so that they can administer a factory warranty, then all bets are off. In which case, there would be some other explanation for the price increase.

This gets more confusing by the day.

[hoppinghippos]

What I don't understand is (no offence intended) that why there are SO many pple who have the opinion that a $100 increase is marginal given the new features, the cost of other brands with similar cameras etc? (note that 100 bucks increase is a whopping 20% increase over the initial 499 bucks offering!!! currency fluctuations btwn yen and USD is only in the range of 3-4% in the last few months) These form of reasonings are precisely what the businesses want us the consumers to think. but you can't value the increase in such ways. Its like saying hey I"m going to buy my nissan car for 10,000 bucks more and it doesn't feel right but hey a ferrari will cost a gazilion times more so its justified?

I think as consumers we have a right to make a stand to say what is fair or unfair business practices.

[rover]

I think it is just that such a big deal was made by Cameraquest, and other Cosina distributors that that price was the same as the R2. I think it would be very safe to say that if offered for $599 initially we all would have excepted that as fair. But, the way things have happened leads to people asking why, which in my opinion is valid. It was determined (maybe) by the manufacturer that selling this camera for $499 was appropriate, including all of the new features. The only things that could have changed in the past 4 weeks to lead to a 20% price increase are 1) higher than expected demand, or 2) an error in the initial pricing. Sounds to me like someone goofed. The result is a negative impression, and a PR problem.

[Allen Gilman]

Prices have not been set yet in Japan. I've gone to two dealers who estimated around 65,000-70,000 yen but added that even they do not know for sure. I'm going to check again tomorrow so I'll let you all know. R3a was slated to be released some time this month here in Tokyo but got pushed back to "sometime" next month - wonder if that will push back the release in the States also. The R2a is on schedule to be released at the end of December.

[Huck Finn]

Darrel, isn't the term "fair business practices" an oxymoron? :D

This all could have been handled far better by Cosina or whomever is responsible by saying that the price for the camera would be $599, but that there would be a special promotional price of $499 for the first x number of orders. I think that no one would have complained about the higher price given the features that have been added & early buyers would have felt privileged to have gotten such a big discount &, as a result, such a good buy. The way that it's been handled creates just the opposite feeling. Something lacking in the marketing dept. somewhere. :rolleyes:

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by Allen Gilman
Prices have not been set yet in Japan. I've gone to two dealers who estimated around 65,000-70,000 yen but added that even they do not know for sure. I'm going to check again tomorrow so I'll let you all know. R3a was slated to be released some time this month here in Tokyo but got pushed back to "sometime" next month - wonder if that will push back the release in the States also. The R2a is on schedule to be released at the end of December.

Allen, thanks for the info. What did the R2 sell for in Japan?

Even at 65,000 yen, that converts to $612 USD. 70,000 yen would be $660. And that's before any export costs or fees. It sounds like $499 would have been a steal if Allen's Japanese dealer estimates hold up.

Happy days for all of the early birds who got this $499 worm. Congrats! :cool:

[Rodinal Addict]

I predict that sales of the R2A and R3A will drop off drastically once the initial supply is sold and replaced by a restock supply because buyers, like me , will be waiting for the price to go back down to a " street " price of less than $599.00.

[dwpayne]

Originally posted by hoppinghippos
I think as consumers we have a right to make a stand to say what is fair or unfair business practices.

Well, the traditional (and easy) way to do that is to not consume :)

[hoppinghippos]

Huck: hahahahaha... oxymoron? that is so true, so true!! :O)

Rover: you made a very gd pt, it is possibly a very bad PR campaign that caused the boo boo. I think it kind of negates the "CV is a cheap alternative to leica, very value for money" msg, now its more like " CV is cheap, but it could be cheaper, but possibly still value for money but maybe not as much as before since (see pt 1) it could be cheaper"

I would like to ask if anyone knows the initial release price of the R2? for the R acc. to cameraquest, when it was released in 2000, it was sold for 650, now its sold for 250 (body only). so tt's roughly a drop of US$100 per year. the R2 is about 450-500 now(ignoring the sudden increase in price to 499 when it was obvious supply was gone but demand was still there, wait that sounds familiar...) and released in 2002, anyone know the release price back then? then we can roughly gauge the possible depreciation of the R3?

[rover]

In the 12/02 Popular Photography Top 70 Cameras issue, which just happens to be sitting here within reach, it is listed with a street price of $650. B&H and Adorama did not list it in their ads. B&H was selling the Bessa R for $400. I do see that Tri-State Camera adverised the R2 for $570, Smile Photo had is for $500.

[hoppinghippos]

if B&H sold the R for $400 in end 2002, that still roughly follows the $100 a year depreciation. but interestingly the R2 also dropped as much, roughly about from $600 to $400 from 2002 to 2004? so it is still about $100 a year? so the qn now would be how long are you willing to wait to get the price that you like? heh kind of like buying stocks or cars.

[Huck Finn]

Has it occurred to anyone else here that Stephen Gandy - & possibly Rich Pinto - may be the ones getting screwed here? My understanding is that Stephen is honoring the $499 for which he took $50 deposits - the honorable thing to do. I don't know what Rich is doing. He can be a little looser since he only took names & not deposits, but if Pr & the pressure to do the right thing lead him to honor the original price, the he too is in the same point. Either way, he's got a problem.

Now that I hear from Allen in his post above that the Japanese dealers haven't yet announced a retail price, I wonder if the prices have been raised on Cameraquest & Photo Village for their ORIGINAL ORDERS. How much of a market can their be on these things? More than 20%? Could it be that Stepehn & Rich will be forced to sell these at cost or even at a loss if they honor the original price?

Maybe the Japanese dealers knew more all along than the American distributors did about this - either about the prices or about Cosina's business practices? One of the liabilities of Cosina's "no frills" approach & lack of corporate infrastructure is that it always has the potential for these kinds of snafus. Lean corporate structure means better prices for the consumer, but it may also mean that at times you get the rug pulled out from under you.

I thought I'd sample some other websites to see what may be going on in other parts of the world. I posted above the price on the Cosina corporate site. Both the posted price & Allen's dealer estimates are all higher than even the $599 currently advertised in the states.

The Voigtlaender site in Germany lists an RRP of $890 USD. (I converted from Euros.) Oddly enough, they list the R2 at $1017 RRP (also converted). This is the distributors website, so maybe prices at the retail level are less - just as they are for many cameras in the states when compared with the MSRP. However, they would have to come down 20% to even be at the current US price of $599. This was not the case with the R2 or the R, which both sold for much higher prices in Germany than they did here.

Robert White in England only posted their price recently $641 USD (converted from pounds). Oddly enough, this is less than their current price for the R2 of $663 (also converted). These prices are before VAT. (I think that the German prices include VAT). So, you will pay about $750 for the R2A/3A in England.

The pattern I see is confusing. European prices have not gone up over the R2; if anything, they are lower. But prices in all 3 countries sampled appear to be higher than even the revised price in the states. Furthermore all seemed to wait longer than USA dealers before announcing new prices. Bottom line is that USA dealers seemd to be premature in the announcement of prices & my guess what be that Cosina gave them some reason to announce the prices they did.

All of this makes me wonder

[hoppinghippos]

Huck: I agree that it could be anything, either the dealers are screwing us, or cosina is screwing them and us, or cosina and the dealers are screwing us. I guess w/o any further info it wouldn't be fair to say anything concrete, everything till now is mere conjecture. but like you, I do wonder if Cosina must have had some part to play in the naming of the original price, afterall you can't just pluck the figure out of the air. one sobering thought is tho (which I just realised), that for the price of the new body, one can buy a brand new Minolta Dynax 7 body. And if minolta can squeeze so many more functions and capabilities and metal bits into the dynax 7 and still sell the body for such a price then hey I wonder what the profit margin is like for the bessa R3s and 2s. (Not saying anything about SLRs or RFs, dont get me wrong, i"m speaking from the manufacturing / design costs pt of view)

[Allen Gilman]

Went to the same dealers today. From what I gathered (in my not too perfect Japanese), the list price is 75,000 yen, but street prices will vary according to shop. One shop that I went to mentioned the "maybe" 65,000 yen price. The same shop said that the R3a will "probably" start selling mid-Nov.

Personally, I don't think US dealers nor Cosina is screwing anyone here. Nor do I think US customers are getting screwed (if the pre-orders are honored at the original price). Like Huck Finn stated above, with a small company like Cosina, there are variables that cannot always be taken into account beforehand. I say this keeping in mind that 599 US dollars is still a good deal for these new models. That's my 2 cents - now, where's that beer at...

[Huck Finn]

Darrel, I agree with your point about conjecture. I thought it was only fair to try to look at it from the possible dealers' point of view. As the front line, they tend to take all the flack & be made to look pretty bad on this whole thing.

Re the Minolta Dynax, I think the price point is largely a factor of sales volume. As digital takes over & SLR sales decrease, watch prices rise for what will become another niche market.

[Taipei-metro]

There are many factors (manufacture discount rate to retailer according to market or retailer discount according to sales units) how the street price of a camera was set. Dynax 7 or Alpha 7 in Japan or Maxxum 7 in US, in Japan today, body only is 125,000 Yen,which will be US$1190 if $1=Y$105 . B&H, Adorama is selling $399 (Oct,2004) a big 66% off the Japan list price,did the two retailers loose money on this deal? I doubt it.
If R2a, R3 list at 70,000 Yen,and if it's a Max 7, the price in US will be $226. (Of course it doesn't work this way for Cosina if total R2a R3 sale projected 8,000 unit or LESS worldwide)
BTW the Max 7 is a beautiful camera and best bang 4 the buck SLR.Lots of great work from the Max 7 "official photographer", Kozawa.

[ZeissFan]

I have a limited number of dollars for new cameras, so I'm going to build up some cash, skip the new Bessa entirely and opt for the "Super Bessa" (a.k.a. Zeiss Ikon).

[Allen Gilman]

Addendum to Taipei-metro - Mamiya's prices in Japan are about a half to 2/3rds to what they are in the States. Usually, I find most camera equipment a little cheaper in the States. Apparently, from what I've been told, Mamiya sought to build up their image in the States as a serious contender to Hasselblad a while back and started to sell their cameras there at similarly high prices. Especially 5-10 years ago, you could always find Mamiya cameras at a much much cheaper price in Japan. Sorry for going off topic -

[hoppinghippos]

Allen: does your "not too perfect" jap contain only vocab words like "beer", "sake", "more please"? Must be difficult asking for camera prices then! :D Personally I've always wanted to visit Japan, you're really lucky to be able to work there!

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by ZeissFan
I have a limited number of dollars for new cameras, so I'm going to build up some cash, skip the new Bessa entirely and opt for the "Super Bessa" (a.k.a. Zeiss Ikon).

"Super Bessa" - great line, Zeiss Fan. LOL. It certainly promises to offer the most precise focusing of any new camera on the market - including Leicas. Agree that it's well worth waiting for.

[hoppinghippos]

But the ZI could be 3 times the price of the new bessas?

[Allen Gilman]

Darrel,

Fortunately, I've got the beverages down pat. Banks, hospitals, and govenment offices are like travelling down the Heart of Darkness! To borrow a line from William Klein - Tokyo is good and good for you!

[Huck Finn]

Could be, Darrel, although early estimates seems to suggest a little less. Maybe 2.5 times. Nice to have a choice at 3 different price points.

"Super Bessa" offers capabilities that the Bessa R series doesn't provide, i.e. built-in 28mm framelines & 56mm effective baselength. Buyers will make decisions based on their needs/wants & their ability to pay. It will be even nicer a few years down the road when these new "super Bessas" start showing up on the used market as Konica Hexar RFs occasionally do today, so that buyers have even more choice at even more price points.

[Taipei-metro]

Allen,
Map Camera in Shinchiku Ku,Tokyo. ph.# 0120-15-3383 is having a 10th Anniversary sale.Fujiya Camera in Nakano Ku seems to be a real big store. Asahido Camera of Nagoya 052-242-4188 seems specialize in Voigtlander Bessa stuff.
Last time I was in Tokyo I enjoy visting Yokohama Chinatown, Asakusa Temple,Ueo Zoo and especially Gold Pagoda. My cameras,F3 24mm 2.8, 35 F2. Canon A-1 28 2.8 35-70 3.5-4.5. No Autofocus no digital.I took subway by myself wondering around in Tokyo for a week, visting camera stores and ends up charging about $2,400 on my Visa account,can't help it.I bought a Nikon 180 2.8 and was so happy about it...