Dating Contax IIa/IIIa bodies??? [Archive]

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harry01562

02-01-2006, 18:48

I've noted the discussion on dating Zeiss lenses lately, with interest. I know there is an approximate chart for dating pre-war bodies, but what about the newer 1950's models?
I own a IIa/IIIa BD, and two IIIa CD, and would like to date them. No, I'm not cheating on my wife. Inanimate objects don't count. Can't really see any "ryme nor reazon" to the letter-number sequence of the 4 cameras. They were all bought with lenses, but unknown if these were original to the body. Again, the numbering does not seem to fit any pattern. Also, 2 are Carl Zeiss, and 2 are Zeiss-Opton. I think the wording was used at different times, but they may have had a period where they were both used.
This is for equipment junkies, and I respectfully acknowledge I am a member in good standing of that group. I'd be happy to furnish serial numbers of cameras/lenses if anyone can be of help.

Harry

rover

02-02-2006, 01:19

Yes, there is a chart matching serial numbers to the year of production. I have it published in a book or two, but have not seen it on line. If you like, send me your serial numbers and I will be able to reply when I get home from work. I am not sure I have a lens date of manufacturing chart.

Or, I am sure some other fine folks will be able to help you out before then.

dexdog

02-02-2006, 04:04

harry01562

02-02-2006, 05:58

Second what Rover said. I have the info in books, but am currently at work, and unable to look up the info.

Post #10 in the RFF thread about lens had a link to dating lenses by serial numbers http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15037

The thread mentioned has a list of lenses, but it only dates the pre-war stuff. Mine are West German from the '50's. There is a pair of reference books, in German but mostly tabular data, but they are pretty pricey, for just 4 lenses. One of the other RF'ers bought the one on Jena material, and the other book is on the West German. Don't know if anyone here has that one. I may buy it, to add to the library, but it isn't really cost effective.

If I can help on anything Canon, RF to FD, just drop a note. I sent a list of my stuff to Rover, and appreciate your offer, also.

Harry

rover

02-02-2006, 13:35

I have the body dates. Does anyone have a resource for dating post war Contax lenses?

Gabriel M.A.

02-03-2006, 14:55

I remember asking in another thread and was referred to a users' group @ Yahoo's db. No such luck. Happy to have joined, but disappointed to not have found this information.

It's perplexing that this kind of info isn't readily available...is it proprietary or something?

harry01562

02-04-2006, 07:54

The info is available, evidently, but not on the net. There have been 3 books published last year with both East & West Zeiss lens number info, but they are in German. This is probably not a major issue, since most of it is tabular lists, but it does require work to get the most value out of the books. They are expensive, being limited printings. The web site offering them isn't user friendly to a non-German, and I haven't had any luck with the order form.
They are by Hartmut Thiele. I believe the volume III has the data on the Oberkochen post-war lenses. Volume I covers everything (?) up to WWII, and volume II covers the post-war Jena products. I'm not really a collector of Zeiss lenses, so the books are not an advantageous buy for me. I'd buy the volume III, if I could find one for $30 or thereabouts. Another member has evidently bought the volume II, and is offering the information. Typical of the courtesy that makes this site such a great resource.
I'm also trying to find copies of the 2 volume set "On the Trail of Contax" at a reasonable cost. One guy in Brooklyn wants $155 for just volume 2!!! And, of course, that's the one of most interest to me.
The saga on information, please, continues....

Harry

FrankS

02-04-2006, 08:30

As I understand it, the letter at the beginning of the camera serial number represents a batch of cameras made over a period of time ranging from a few months to a few years. It would be great if someone with that info in a book could post that info in a new Contax RF thread which could them be made a sticky thread. This info does not seem to be available on the internet anywhere to my knowledge.

dexdog

02-04-2006, 09:21

Frank S, good idea. Data is taken from "On the Trail of the Contax, Volume II" by Hans-Jurgen Kuc. For some reason, the table gets knocked out of format when posted, although it was fine when I typed it up in the message interface. I'll see if I can make it a sticky, too

Contax IIa, mechanical sync

Letter, Serial Number, Production date
P, 97,001-100,000, 11/1949 to 6/1950
S, 20,001-28,000, 7/1950 to 4/1951
T, 5,001-9,000, 3/1951 to 7/1951
T, 28,001-35,000, 8/1951 to 12/1951
U, 1-5,000, 1/1952 to 5/1952
V, 15,001-20,000, 7/1952 to 8/1952
X, 1-3,000, 9/1952 to 10/1952
Y, 57,001-62,001, 11/1952 to 3/1953
A, 43,001-46,001, 4/1953 to 10/1953

Contax IIa, PC sync

Letter, Serial Number, Production dates
A, 46,000-53,000, 11/1953 to 9/1954
B, 90,001-95,000, 10/1954 to 2/1955
F, 20,001-25,000, 3/1955 to7/1956
Q, 30,001-33,000, 7/1956 to 9/1957
R, 33,001-34,000, 11/1956 to 4/1958
L, 85,001-87,000, 4/1958 to 2/1961

Contax IIIa, mechanical sync

Letter, Serial Number, Production dates
T, 35,001-40,000, 3/1951 to 7/1952
V, 20,001-25,000, 7/1952 to 10/1952
Y, 52,001-57,000, 11/1952 to 3/1953
A, 53,001-63,000, 4/1953 to 10/1953

Contax IIIa, PC sync

Letter, Serial Number, Production dates
B, 95,001-100,000, 11/1953 to 9/1954
C, 1-5,000, 10/1954 to 2/1955
D, 76,001-86,000, 3/1955 to 1/1956
F, 25,001-30,000, 2/1956 to 8/1956
L, 75,001-85,000, 7/1956 to 7/1961
O, 86,001-91,000, 11/1956 to 7/1957
Q, 1 to 25, 1960
R, 34.001-38,000, 2/1961 to 8/1962

FrankS

02-04-2006, 09:36

Excellent, thank you!

Gabriel M.A.

02-04-2006, 17:15

dexdog: You rule! You yardstick!! You GPS!!! Awesome!!! :D

It's been driving me cray-zee for a few weeks; no matter how I searched, I got the same Pre-WWII data. At first I thought my camera was from 1936 --and my jaw dropped. It makes more sense now to see that it's from 1956.

Thanks again!!

harry01562

02-04-2006, 23:58

You've helped a few people, and a bunch more will also gain from that post in the future. It also isn't going to reduce the sale of the valuable Kuc book. I'm in the process of ordering that and the CZ Oberkochen lens data book published last year. We may just have more info available on the Contax than anywhere... including Zeiss Historical Society.
Will advise when I have lens book in hand, for those that need data on the post-war West German lenses.

Harry

hugivza

02-05-2006, 00:22

Dexdog, thanks for that! I was interested in the break between the mechanical link and the PC link. My colour dial IIIa has a serial no A57XXX, and hence according to the table was produced in 1953, yet the flash sync is a PC link, presumably a later modification? The lens is a Zeiss Opton Sonnar 1015XXX. It's fascinating to think that it has been around for 50 plus years and is still working, as indeed I have - maybe I need to be CLA'd too!

Rich Silfver

05-26-2006, 00:23

Dexdog, big kudos for posting that information - I searched the internet and this posting is the only one I could find that had this information!

(Maybe post it in a clean, new post and make it a sticky in the Zeiss Ikon folder as this is really great info).

(My IIIa has a serial number of D78244 and is therefore made 3/1955 - 1/1956. Cool.)

rover

05-26-2006, 01:10

I made this thread sticky so that it can be easily found in the future.

harry01562

05-28-2006, 18:29

I've neglected to mention that I have a copy of both the post-war Thiele listing and the book by John Keesing, as well. The dating is very approximate, as the SN's were released in large batches. I would guess some batches were used over a period of several years. Still, it's better than no information.

I also found one lens that didn't fit the listings, and some info in Keesing. No additional answers on a request for information here several weeks ago. Evidently not a common item.

Will be glad to provide what I can on anything from the 1950's, except the Jena, which are in an additional book that I don't own. I cover the Carl Zeiss or Zeiss Opton's only.

Harry

darkkavenger

07-10-2006, 16:16

Hello! Any infos about pre-war bodies? I just received a lovely Contax-III body from FrankS that will undergo overhaul. It's serial number is B 63982

Thanks people!
Max

darkkavenger

07-11-2006, 05:48

*bump bump*

varjag

07-11-2006, 05:55

Max, sounds like 1936.

darkkavenger

07-11-2006, 05:59

That'd be incredible, both lens & body from same year! My collapsible sonnar from summer 1936 snuggles in perfectly with the body, much better than on the Kiev-2A (it tends to unlock if focused by a firm hand). :)

dll927

07-11-2006, 09:14

This type of information can be tricky to come up with. Unless the company kept running records of serial numbers (a la Leitz/Leica), anything else may be at least partly speculation. And going that far back, before recalls and lawyers got into the act, probably makes it even more iffy. Someone would have to be able to delve into company records, undoubtedly the only reliable source.

In the case of Contax, it moved around a time or two, and there were even duplicate companies for a while. Then the Soviets robbed that cradle.

According to apparently reliable info, Soviet cameras' serial numbers started (the first two digits) with the year of manufacture. How reliable the cameras themselves were seems to depend on how much vodka the boys consumed the night before.

flashover

08-16-2006, 19:20

ok what's the diif between the Mechanical sync and PC sycn. My IIIa has a T ser number it's the color dial

flashover

08-16-2006, 19:30

Hum ok Ser Number T36748 camera is IIIa color dial with PC connection on back below meter adjustment screw. But ser number matches mech sync from 1952?

Contax IIIa, mechanical sync

Letter, Number series, Production dates
T, 35,001-40,000, 3/1951 to 7/1952
V, 20,001-25,000, 7/1952 to 10/1952
Y, 52,001-57,000, 11/1952 to 3/1953
A, 53,001-63,000, 4/1953 to 10/1953

Contax IIIa, PC sync

Letter, Number series, Production dates
B, 95,001-100,000, 11/1953 to 9/1954
C, 1-5,000, 10/1954 to 2/1955
D, 76,001-86,000, 3/1955 to 1/1956
F, 25,001-30,000, 2/1956 to 8/1956
L, 75,001-85,000, 7/1956 to 7/1961
O, 86,001-91,000, 11/1956 to 7/1957
Q, 1 to 25, 1960
R, 34.001-38,000, 2/1961 to 8/1962

rover

08-17-2006, 01:36

The color dial cameras have standard PC flash connections. BD have a proprietary mechanical flash with require a special cable.

flashover

08-17-2006, 04:58

ok but the serial number matches a mech sync camera from 1952 Is there cross over between the two models? The serial number is the same on the shoe and inside the body.

FrankS

08-17-2006, 05:03

Your camera may have been converted to PC sync. No problem.

flashover

08-17-2006, 05:14

just wondered if there was agrey area in the models. From what I read there is internal differances between the mech sync and PC sync cameras. Oh the PC does work on my cameras. Oh well it takes nice pictures either way.

HuubL

02-13-2007, 05:18

Max, sounds like 1936.
So my new III #E39812 would be from 1939??

furcafe

02-13-2007, 12:50

According to the Foto Saga book cited by Stephen Gandy:

http://www.cameraquest.com/zconrf2.htm

the E series dates to approximately 1937.

So my new III #E39812 would be from 1939??

HuubL

02-13-2007, 12:56

According to the Foto Saga book cited by Stephen Gandy:

http://www.cameraquest.com/zconrf2.htm

the E series dates to approximately 1937.

Wow... Thanks for checking. 70 years old! And still looking like a young lady! I'll try to post her portrait shortly.

HuubL

02-14-2007, 01:30

Wow... Thanks for checking. 70 years old! And still looking like a young lady! I'll try to post her portrait shortly.

Check out the 'Show off your Contax' thread...

raid

10-11-2007, 17:29