CV 15mm vs CV 21mm

[iMacfan]

Hi,

Sorry if I'm boring anyone about asking another x vs y question, but here goes:

I'm going to buy either the CV 15mm or 21mm lens. I have never seen both, but everying I have heard on both accounts seems positive. They both cost the same here, so that does not help choose, and as the widest lens I own is a 28mm on a Ricoh GR1v, they will both seem very wide to me. The 15 has the aspheric element going for it, as well as the extra width, while the 21 skopar is a bit faster, has a filter thread and is RF coupled(though this is not that important). Never having seen real prints (only online scans), do any of you think there is a significat difference in results one way or the other?

Thanks,

David

[Pherdinand]

David, i think jorge m. trevino has some nice examples posted on photo.net he made with the 15mm lens. Just look for him there, in the "directory" menu.

However, i'd not get the 15mm unless i can try it out or get it second hand cheaply. 15mm is really really wide. 21 is already far from the 28 you have; I have a 17mm (slr mount), it was shockingly wide. I needed a few monts and several rolls of film to get used to that monster and not produce "empty" or too cluttered frames, or terrible pig-faced portraits. (We are good friends now, but i use my 24mm much more).
You really have to take care of composition and lines and people and every detail with lenses this wide, there's no way around. Cropping, photoshop, these stuff won't help much to rescue a lost frame. But it's fun to use them:)

[Pherdinand]

BTW, sorry i can't comment on the optical quality of the two lenses in question. However, i've heard only good things about them.

[iMacfan]

Thank you - that really is what I needed to know. I tend to prefer longer focal lengths, so the 21 will be challenge enough. If anyone could put my mind to rest re the optical quality of the 21, I'd appreciate it very much.

Thank you,

David

[rover]

David, the optical quality of the 21 is excellent. It is a sharp little lens. Wide open in uneven lighting conditions I have noticed some vignetting, but it is not in every shot. Here is a link to a very untechnical review I did of this lens.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1010
In addition to my experience, I have only read good things about this lens. If you asked me, I would say buy it.

[sfaust]

I'll be picking up a roll of film I shot yesterday with the 21mm on the R2. I'll post here with my opinion when I get a look at them. However, from everything Ive heard, its a nice sharp lens.

[iMacfan]

Thank you Rover, those shots are pretty good, especially since they are from the first roll on such an extreme perspective lens. I particularly like the 'pop' 3d effect on the gravestone shots. One thing, though, is that there seems to be a fair bit of flare - but maybe that was just the conditions at the time.

David

[peter_n]

Everything that the Pherd said. These super-wides are tough to get used to but a great challenge to find subject matter suitable to the lens then take a meaningful picture. I have a 21 (not the CV) and love it. I've heard nothing but good things about the CV 21mm and I've seen some really cracking photos taken with it. Despite what you say, having a rangefinder coupled lens may come in useful, it is possible to get an OOF background wide-open... :)

[don sorsa]

Hi David -

I considered the 15 but then bought the 21 since my previous experience had been with a 28 and the 15 seemed like a world I was unprepared for. I've put several rolls through the 21 and like it very much although I do have a tendency to tilt it one way or another. I'll try to attach a shot from my second roll, Tri-X, EI 1250, souped in Diafine and the negative scanned. Most of the photos posted on my gallery were shot with the 21. You'll spot the ones where I could have used the spirit level.

In case my upload doesn't work or the photo is too tiny, the shot is also posted here. http://homepage.mac.com/donsorsa/album2/library.jpg. You'll see there's some detail in the shadows of the ceiling while the trees in the bright light outside aren't blown out.

Regards,
Don

[iMacfan]

Thanks very much Dan - an excellent example of what the lens can do, and enough to make my decision up.

David.

P.S. Ironically enough, I can see the RF forum image, but not the .Mac version, even though I'm using a Mac and Safari!

[don sorsa]

David - Yeah, I screwed up the url. Remove the period after "jpg"
Be sure to post your pix!

Don

[iMacfan]

Wow - I only just realised - an extremely nice setting for a library! I guess it makes studying just that little bit more tolerable.

David

[don sorsa]

I like the lens and it's plenty wide for me (and very light, especially mounted on the L) but I've also seen stunning images from the 15. BTW, this is our village library (Oak Park, Illinois, USA), heavily used by local students and the community as well. As for studying being tolerable... well, I'm on the other side of the classroom and always thought studying was one of the pleasures in life! # ^ }

Don

[Dingo]

I got both of them, both are great stuff. If you can only pick up one, pick the 21. Reason :

1. Easier to handle, the 15 has greater distortion of objects in close corners.
2. 21 wins in resolution and contrast when wide open and f11 to f22.
3. 21 is smaller, easier to add filters, and a little faster.
4. I shoot less and less with the 15, not easier to find a suitable scenery for it.

Go see some samples :
http://www.pgallery.net/dingo/folder-list.html
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/516/ppuser/192

Get both sooner or later...

[sfaust]

I agree the 15mm is a harder lens to handle, and it requires suitable subject matter. I find the 21mm a more usable length, easier to deal with, and produces less distortion which makes for a more pleasing image. I just went through the same buying decision, and finally went with the 21mm. The quality is there, so there shouldn't be any qualms with that.

[rover]

Originally posted by iMacfan
Thank you Rover, those shots are pretty good, especially since they are from the first roll on such an extreme perspective lens. I particularly like the 'pop' 3d effect on the gravestone shots. One thing, though, is that there seems to be a fair bit of flare - but maybe that was just the conditions at the time.

David

Dave, the gravestone shot was taken directly into the sun. It was a worst case scenerio. The stones were shaded under the canopy of some trees, but the flare is from the sun directly ahead slightly to the left of center. The gateway to the cemetary was taken in similar conditions, the sun was more off to the left, but strong and more behind the subject than in front.

[iMacfan]

Thanks everyone for the help - I finally took the plunge and bought the 21/4. Also a heads up for those in the UK: Robert White are offering a Bessa L for £25 with any CV 12,15 or 21 lens, so how could I resist? Made it a palatable three hundred quid in total, including postage and our draconian 17.5% of valuless added tax.

David

P.S. Does anyone think I should post a seperate thread to tell everyone about the deal?

P.P.S. Don: I'm actually a medical student, but I think we're all allowed a bit of cynicism from time to time!

[don sorsa]

David - Well done. Post your photos.

You're a medical student, eh? Doctors without Borders is one of the finest organizations in the world - a true source for hope and change.

Best regards,
Don

[laurentvenet]

Hi David. Thank's for your posting, I was also in the same questions, 15 mm or 21. This summer I wanted to buy a Russian Horizon 2002 but it's big and too specific. 21 mm seems to be perfect with my scopar 35, and jupiter 8.
BTW, your promotion for www.robertwhite.co.uk is amazing ! thank's, I'm hesitating now between cameraquest in Us, and this Uk shop which is close to France.
Cheers, Laurent

[Marc Jutras]

For those interested, I just got a 15/4.5 and posted results frrom my first roll in my gallery.

I went for the 15mm because I wanted at least a 110º field of view. The X-Pan was out of my league and I didn't feel like investing in something like a Horizon 202. I figured I should stick to my R2 and simply add a lens.

I knew the 21mm would be nice but my previous experience with the superb 20-35 Nikon lens showed me I often needed more FOV.

The 15mm is not easy to master but it's not that hard either (or I'm a bit weird and see like that...). The only real problem I had was with fingers in the frame in horizontal pictures. You have to hold the camera by the edges only with nothing touching the front at all (if that makes sense to you).

Conlusion: I love the 15 and I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with it. But it's not for everybody or every project.

[rover]

I really like the shots you posted Marc. I have had a couple fingers in my shots with the 21mm too. Part of the learning curve I guess.

[That Guy]

Great work with the Heliar, Marc! After viewing you work, I feel like a hack with mine. I had a finger or two in the frame when I first started using the 15mm. But I truly love the unusual perspective of the lens. The X-Pan'esque crops work fairly well, too, I think. I haven't tried that yet.

I'm impressed by the verticals and horizontals in all the images. Did you use a bubble level with the lens? Or are they corrected in PS?

Again, great work!

[Marc Jutras]

Chris, all shots are the complete negative except the "X-Pan" crop and I didn't use a level. I was sincerely expecting problems with my alignment. I used the 15mm viewfinder as I would normally with the camera's viewfinder. I relied on the sides of the finder to judge verticals and horizontals. For leveling, I either went voluntarilly for a tilt on some shots and relied on my vision to judge if I was leveled when I needed it.

[laurentvenet]

one last word. 15 lens is called aspherical, then I understand it's not a fish eye, but this feature is not mentionned for the 21 lens. Is it because it's obvious than a 21 lens is not aspherical ?

[rover]

Correct, the 21 does not have any aspherical elements.

http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/voigt/v-lens/v-l-m/index.html

[Designer]

Originally posted by Marc Jutras
Chris, all shots are the complete negative except the "X-Pan" crop and I didn't use a level. I was sincerely expecting problems with my alignment. I used the 15mm viewfinder as I would normally with the camera's viewfinder. I relied on the sides of the finder to judge verticals and horizontals. For leveling, I either went voluntarilly for a tilt on some shots and relied on my vision to judge if I was leveled when I needed it.

Hi! Marc,

I also relied on the framing sides of the viewfinder to judge verticals. It's really need some practice for me to familiar w/. the lens.:D

Keven

[laurentvenet]

does aspherical improve line rendering ? (my english is poort), I mean is there less distorsion and a more natural rendering with an aspherical lens ?

[That Guy]

Laurent, since you are in Paris, I translated this to French from Canon's website. The translation may be off a little here and there, but it was free.

La Lentille de Aspherical Exigeant la Précision d'Ajustage de 0,1 µm ou Moins

La lentille sphérique généralement utilisé pour la photographie a un sort théorique : c'est impossible de converger des rayons parallèles à un point. Puisque beaucoup de lentilles sont combinées pour le corriger, il y avait des limites dans atteindre de qualité supérieure d'une lentille de grand-ouverture et le caractère compact de lentille. Mais ces limites peuvent s'être cassées si vous utilisez la lentille de aspherical avec l'idéal a courbé la surface qui peut rassembler des rayons à un point. Mais c'est difficile à faire la lentille de aspherical, et pour la surface courbée délicate résolue par le calcul exige en fait telle précision d'ajustage comme 0.1µm ou moins, et avant que la technologie de production en série a été établie, les artisans consommés avaient poli manuellement des lentilles un à un par leur perception et leur expérience. En plus, ce n'était pas si facile à mesurer la précision de la lentille produite à cause de l'absence d'instruments pour mesurer le niveau de 0.1µm ou moins précisément.

La très élevé-précision Mesure la Technologie : la Première Etape dans l'Investigation de Précision de Lentille

Afin de fabriquer en série la lentille de aspherical si difficile être faite comme la lentille de rêve appelée, le Canon a empoigné le développement de théorie de conception, la technologie d'ajustage de précision, et la précision mesure la technologie. Pour la précision mesure la technologie, nous avons établi l'extrême-haut précision mesurant la technologie de contrôle avec la précision à mesurer de 0,02 µm (le 2/100,000 mm) utilisant l'interféromètre laser pour mesurer de longueur. Nous avons établi aussi la technologie de production en série au moyen de la précision NC meulant/uniforme polir le aspherical extrême le système d'ajustage. Ainsi nous avons développé la lentille pour la seul-lentille appareil-photo réflexe adoptant une lentille de aspherical de sol pour la première fois dans le monde.

La réalisation de Technologie de Production EN SERIE pour les Diverses Lentilles de Aspherical pour Rencontrer de Diverses Applications

En plus de la méthode de polir direct de lentille, le Canon a développé beaucoup de technologies de production en série pour la lentille de aspherical y compris la technologie de moule en plastique pour mouler des lentilles en versant le matériel en plastique dans un moule de aspherical précis, la technologie de fac-similé pour mouler aspherical en placant ultraviolet-guérir la résine sur la surface d'une lentille sphérique, et une technologie de moule de verre directement pour appuyer le verre avec aspherical meurt. Ces technologies sont utilisées dépendent sélectivement de la précision de lentille, de l'ouverture, et du prix, se rendre compte de qualité supérieure, le caractère compact, et le poids léger de diverses lentilles d'appareil-photo, les photocopieuses, LBP, etc.

Activement Utilisé aussi pour Filmer

La lentille de aspherical pour créer des images supérieures sont aussi utilisées pour les caméras. Le canon a développé des lentilles pour 35 mm filmer demandé par l'Association des Producteurs de Film Américaine. Le K interchangeable de lentille-35 feuilleton adoptant la lentille de aspherical a reçu le deuxième Prix de Division Science DE TECHNOLOGIE de Prix d'Académie en 1977.
:)

[laurentvenet]

Merci beaucoup Chris !!! It's just so kind of you for taking so much time to translate all this long text.
It's always warming me up to meet french friendly speaking people !

Kind regards, Laurent

[That Guy]

Le ne faire aucun cas de.

www.freetranslation.com (http://www.freetranslation.com/)

Glad I could help. :)

[jordi-bcn]

Hi guys,

I've also in the same question and yours posts are been very useful. I've seen that cameraquest www.cameraquest.com and photovillage www.photovillage.com have cheap prices (sorry for my poor english).

[iMacfan]

Hello again,

As I promised, here is one of my first pics with the 21/4. It's also the first scan with my new Minolta 5400 film scanner, which I think will have a far greater learning curve, so please forgive any deficencies in that regard. It's a view of the Thames in central London:

[rover]

I like that lens, mine needs to go for a walk again.

Jordi, Photo Village and Cameraquest are the official US distributors for the CV gear. They do tend to be pretty fairly priced here in the States, and from you all say, they are low compared to other dealers around the world.

There is a nice 21 on ebay (US) right now, with LTM/m adaptor and case.

[Nikon Bob]

iMacfan

I have been itching to get a CV 21 for a while and your photo and others are really convincing me to do so. We are both users of the Minolta 5400 so I want to ask how do you like yours?

Nikon Bob

[iMacfan]

This is literally my first scan with the machine, with no corrections at all (no ICE, no USM...). So, considering that, I'm pretty impressed with the overall quality of the image, but can't judge the quality at top res just yet. I must say that it seems a bit slow doing the scans, but this is made up by the hilarious and frankly rediculous noises and how it moves the film holder from side to side etc... All in all nothing too much to complain about just yet.

David

[Nikon Bob]

David

You can PM or email me on the Minolta 5400 and maybe we can help each other out at times. I don't want to hijack this thread .

Bob

[nihraguk]

Like many other posters on this thread, I'm also having some diffculty deciding between a 21mm and a 15mm...

After reading the first few posts here talking about the difficulty with the 15mm, I thought I had found my answer, and was about to go for the 21mm...

But then I saw dingo's and marc's shots with the 15mm.... and I'm back where I started. :(

It is so difficult to decide which focal length you're more comfortable with... when you can't try out the lenses yourself.

[peter_n]

Maybe you can borrow or rent? I think in general the wider you go the fewer opportunities you get. The thing is that when you do capture something well the reaction to the shot is always dramatic, and that is as true of a 21 as a 15.

[Doug]

Both lenses are very very wide... the wider you get the more challenging it is to use, and the more specialized the application. There's nothing quite like the 15 when you really need it, but OTOH it's far from a "normal" view of the world. The next more extreme step can only be the fish-eye lens.

I have the 15 and 25mm lenses. The 25 gets a whole lot more use, while the 15 sits in its case awaiting those special events. I think the 21mm might be about the widest "walking around" lens, and it's deservedly popular. See Alan Soon's 21mm shots in Istanbul:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=322503

Of course, you could go the proper RF Forum route and get both! :) Here's a 15mm shot:

[Kin Lau]

Nice thread so far.

I've recently picked up a Sigma 15-30 zoom for my DReb, which is only a 24mm equiv but I also picked up a film body to take advantage of this. 15mm is quite something to get used to... I've shot 7 rolls in Hawaii, mostly @ 15mm and looking at some scenes now, I probably should have zoomed out a bit.

I'm going to try shooting the same scenes in 15, 20 & 30(or 28) just to get a better feel for this.

[nihraguk]

Thanks Doug... the link to Alan's gallery was very helpful. I suspect I'll be getting the 21 after all...

Originally posted by Doug
Both lenses are very very wide... the wider you get the more challenging it is to use, and the more specialized the application. There's nothing quite like the 15 when you really need it, but OTOH it's far from a "normal" view of the world. The next more extreme step can only be the fish-eye lens.

I have the 15 and 25mm lenses. The 25 gets a whole lot more use, while the 15 sits in its case awaiting those special events. I think the 21mm might be about the widest "walking around" lens, and it's deservedly popular. See Alan Soon's 21mm shots in Istanbul:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=322503

Of course, you could go the proper RF Forum route and get both! :) Here's a 15mm shot:

[peter_n]

Thanks for the link also Doug. Great pictures there, I'm off to Madrid in April and I'm definitely taking my 21mm after seeing these shots!

[Doug]

I'm envious, Peter! I'd love to spend some more time with a camera in Madrid. We were there a couple years ago, in May. I used the 25mm a lot there, about equally with the 40, and more than the 15. I think this Madrid shot looks more 40-ish... Way behind in my scanning.

[peter_n]

Nice Doug! I'm looking forward to it - I have a kid attending university there for a year so I'm taking advantage of that. We're probably going to rent an apartment in the old part of the city. :)