getting camera to Joe, surplus funds

[FrankS]

Alright, enough revelling, let's keep this going to completion!

There are 2 issues to deal with at present: how to get the camera to Joe, and what to do with surplus funds and contributions that will continue to come in (mailed MO's and such).

The last is easiest to deal with first. Either we buy film and accessories to go with Joe's camera, or the surplus is directed towards the RFF site. I favour the latter. What do you guys think?

Now, how to get the camera to Joe? Any ideas?

[yossarian]

Frank, first I'd like to personally thank you for conceiving and supervising this project.
Wonderful! Second, I agree that any surplus should go to RFF.

WELL DONE, FRANK!!!

Fred Morrison

[FrankS]

Thank you Fred, but I just had an idea, and donated $20 like everyone else.

[f/stopblues]

I'd vote for surplus to the site also. Also, if possible, some border smuggling and a member bringing it to him seems best (ie. most personal). Just getting a package on the doorstep seems on the same plane as a gift certificate, IMO.

[ClaremontPhoto]

Who lives nearby to Joe?

[Kim Coxon]

Hi,
Didn't someone say they could "carry"it across the border ans get it to Joe?

As to the funds, my vote is that we send the camera and lens "complete" ie case, hood etc but any other funds go to the site.

Kim

[yossarian]

Frank, you are too humble--the idea is everything, and you have perpetrated a totally
selfless act whether you like it or not!

Fred

[FrankS]

I like the "complete" camera idea too. Trius (Earl) lives in northern NY state and often visits Toronto. He has offered to carry it across. ONce here, we could mail it to someone near Joe. Chris (cap_ whatever) lives in Vancouver but that's a ways from Edmonton. Does anyone live closer, like in Cagary?

[rover]

You know how Joe is with hoods. I would say to at least provide for a a hood and donating the rest to RFF is another very good idea.

[ClaremontPhoto]

There's thousands of people here. Somebody *must* live in the same city and can meet up in a coffee shop?

[taffer]

Good point as for the hood Rover, I think that's a must.

As for the rest, I like the RFF funds idea.

[Honu-Hugger]

I favor two thoughts: that the surplus go to the RFF (I'm sure Joe would support this) and one way or another we get a picture of Joe receiving the camera :)
P. S. Preferably fully clothed...

[taffer]

I got a new idea !

Luigi's half case for the ZI !

[richard_l]

A hood contributes to photographic quality (and the ZM hoods ain't cheap). A case is optional. I suggest that we include the proper lens hood in the kit, but donate what's left over to RFF.

[FrankS]

We can't give it anyone. It would be a shame to be scammed by a new member with mallicious intent. (Sorry for the negative thought amongst all this positive vibe!)

[Honu-Hugger]

We can't give it anyone. It would be a shame to be scammed by a new member with mallicious intent. (Sorry for the negative thought amongst all this positive vibe!)
I'm sorry -- I don't understand what this means?

[FrankS]

There COULD be a person who sees this as an easy opportunity to steal a valuable gift.

[jaapv]

I'm with Rover, get him the hood and maybe a pol-filter.Any surplus to RFF.
And, Frank, don't be shy itwas your idea and you deserve credit for it! :angel:

[taffer]

Well we could use the surplus to get one of those hand-to-hand delivery with RFF song-poem included :D

[ClaremontPhoto]

A Camera'o'Gram!

[rover]

I don't know that there are a lot of established members in Edmonton. If customs costs can be saved by having the camera shipped to someone in the states and then passed to a Canadian member, where ever they meet, then the camera can be mailed to Joe domestically in Canada.

If a better option doesn't come up, I can make it into Vermont somewhere is someone from the great white north is up for a drive.

[FrankS]

Hire a green-eyed redhead to deliver the camera and spend the night? (Sorry, inappropriate)

[FrankS]

Thank you for that offer Ralph, but if we need to go with that plan, Trius (Earl) in northern NY often visits Toronto

[jaapv]

Hire a green-eyed redhead to deliver the camera and spend the night? (Sorry, inappropriate)

Do we have THAT much money left in the kitty,Frank? :D ;)

[rover]

Thank you for that offer Ralph, but if we need to go with that plan, Trius (Earl) in northern NY often visits Toronto


My next offer was to meet you for lunch somewhere in NY.

[ch1]

If Trius, or any other non-Calif. resident in the US, "buys" it we will avoid sales taxes. :cool:

I leave the cross-border movement to the other febrile minds here. ;)

I agree that after getting together a complete kit - any surplus should go to support the RFF site.

[Bryan Lee]

I said it before but here goes, How much would it cost for a airplane ticket round trip from edmonton to thousand oaks to pick up the camera in person, Its all frozen up there and I feel kinda bad sending him out in the snow right off. If he had 2 days he could fly down, pick up the camera, and then spend the day or 2 days shooting film for the contest or just enjoying the new camera. Then playing with sunny negatives could keep him warm til spring. just an idea, I understand if the tickets over 500 bucks but what the heck, Im willing to chip in 5 more bucks for a good cause like thawing a guy out.

[taffer]

Bryan that's a great idea, we know how Joe lusts for some warmer weather, but have in mind that this also depends on Joe's timing...

[VinceC]

Reliable delivery is pretty darned important. If we're still getting donations, it might be a good idea to use some of that money to get the camera kit safely into Joe's hands -- expedited shipping or even a cheap plane ticket for someone to Edmonton.

[VinceC]

Oops. The plane-ticket idea came up while I was posting my earlier message.

[FrankS]

An airplane ticket for Joe is certainly generous and "thinking big" to be sure, but a bit too expensive/over the top IMO. (Sorry for the negative.)

Once in Canada, the gift can be shipped securely with insurance and a tracking number for $25 or so, so that is no problem.

Let's keep this open until tonight or tomorrow and see if any other ideas come up.

[hiwatt]

I like the idea of Joe getting a complimentary ticket to california to collect the Ikon from Tony's hands (with official :D :D pics of the event of course).

[Bryan Lee]

Flight: United Airlines flight 6744 / 323 - 1 Stop - Change planes in Denver, CO (DEN)
Depart: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Wed, 01 Feb 6:19am Conditions
Arrive: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Wed, 01 Feb 11:57am
Total travel time: 6hrs 38min



Flight: Air Canada flight 5113 (operated by United Airlines) / 248 -
1 Stop - Change planes in Vancouver, BC, Canada (YVR)
Depart: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Fri, 03 Feb 6:45pm
Arrive: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Sat, 04 Feb 1:15am
Total travel time: 5hrs 30min
Next day arrival


Round-Trip not including ticket taxes and applicable charges* USD 224.00
Plus Service Fee USD 12.00





Flight: Air Canada flight 239 / 5008 (operated by United Airlines) -
1 Stop - Change planes in Vancouver, BC, Canada (YVR)
Depart: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Wed, 01 Feb 10:25am Conditions
Arrive: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Wed, 01 Feb 3:31pm
Total travel time: 6hrs 6min



Flight: United Airlines flight 770 / 6747 - 1 Stop - Change planes in Denver, CO (DEN)
Depart: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Fri, 03 Feb 1:00pm
Arrive: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Fri, 03 Feb 8:16pm
Total travel time: 6hrs 16min


Round-Trip not including ticket taxes and applicable charges* USD 224.00
Plus Service Fee USD 12.00





Flight: Air Canada flight 239 / 5008 (operated by United Airlines) -
1 Stop - Change planes in Vancouver, BC, Canada (YVR)
Depart: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Wed, 01 Feb 10:25am Conditions
Arrive: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Wed, 01 Feb 3:31pm
Total travel time: 6hrs 6min



Flight: Air Canada flight 5113 (operated by United Airlines) / 248 -
1 Stop - Change planes in Vancouver, BC, Canada (YVR)
Depart: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Fri, 03 Feb 6:45pm
Arrive: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Sat, 04 Feb 1:15am
Total travel time: 5hrs 30min
Next day arrival


Round-Trip not including ticket taxes and applicable charges* USD 226.00
Plus Service Fee USD 12.00





Flight: United Airlines flight 6746 / 267 - 1 Stop - Change planes in Denver, CO (DEN)
Depart: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Wed, 01 Feb 3:10pm Conditions
Arrive: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Wed, 01 Feb 9:43pm
Total travel time: 7hrs 32min



Flight: United Airlines flight 770 / 6747 - 1 Stop - Change planes in Denver, CO (DEN)
Depart: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Fri, 03 Feb 1:00pm
Arrive: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Fri, 03 Feb 8:16pm
Total travel time: 5hrs 15min



Round-Trip not including ticket taxes and applicable charges* USD 226.00
Plus Service Fee USD 12.00





Flight: Air Canada flight 235 / 560 -
1 Stop - Change planes in Vancouver, BC, Canada (YVR)
Depart: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Wed, 01 Feb 6:00am Conditions
Arrive: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Wed, 01 Feb 10:25am
Total travel time: 5hrs 25min



Flight: Air Canada flight 5113 (operated by United Airlines) / 248 -
1 Stop - Change planes in Vancouver, BC, Canada (YVR)
Depart: San Francisco, CA (SFO) Fri, 03 Feb 6:45pm
Arrive: Edmonton, Canada (YEG) Sat, 04 Feb 1:15am
Total travel time: 3hrs 40min
Next day arrival

This was just the first thing that poped up on a basic search, The tickets look cheep enough but it would be up to Joe.

[sockeyed]

I'm in Vancouver and would love to help out somehow, but that doesn't help a ton unless we could somehow lure Joe here. Actually, a ZI is pretty good bait!

[erudolph]

I'm not sure what the total pool is. I take it it's enough to buy both a body and lens. If there's a few hundred bucks left after that, I'd say buy kit accessories for Joe. If there's _thousands_ leftover (would be surprising) I'd say put it aside in a special RFF fund, rather than adding it into the general fund. As for the plane ticket idea, ask Joe if that's what he wants.... :-)

Ed

[hiwatt]

Bryan,
I was about to ask you if you worked in a travel agency...but you just made a quick internet search.
I'd think about Joe flying to California as a way to elegantly avoid Canadian import duties and stuff (without having a third party sneaking the camera cross-border).
If someone on the forum works in a travel agency (or in an airline co.) maybe we could even get it cheaper...just my 2 cents...

[JoeFriday]

I'd vote for a lens hood.. the rest donated to RFF.. I think buying a plane ticket is a nice thought, but a bit too much.. it might be inconvenient for Joe, and we don't need to make him go that far out of his way for something he didn't ask for

[FrankS]

I'll ask Joe. Thanks for the details, Bryan!

[raid]

I suggest the following:

Use the surplus fund to start a new concepts here. A lottery in which one person each month gets a lens or camera and only people paying into this fund are eligible. use the surplus to start this fund.

[yossarian]

Green eyed redhead...


Green eyed redhead...


Wow....


You did say green eyes..........right?


Wow.

[raid]

If 100 people pay each month $5 each, we have $500 ready to go. If Joe's money should be spent on Joe, this is certainly propoer and fine, but we could start from scratch a monthly lottery.

[Bryan Lee]

With total respect for Frank as it was his original idea I would say no amount of money is to much to have a afternoon in San Francisco or L.A. with a new camera when youre freezing you yinyangs off in Canada in the middle of winter. We dont even know if Joe has time but who knows he might have a week to burn or he might just be busy. I spent a few winters alone up the Yukon river in Alaska so thats where im coming from with my thinking on the subject. I think we would all love to see pictures of Joe in California taking pictures with his new camera and in a way it would be a holiday for all of us even those stuck in the snow unlike myself whos sweated off a kilo in 100f degree heat all day. Again with total respect to Frank, as Joe knows all about this stuff by now maybe we could just ask him if he wants to fly down or if he even has the time.

[jlw]

There's thousands of people here. Somebody *must* live in the same city and can meet up in a coffee shop?

Let's hope none of those thousands of people are Canadian customs agents!

[bobofish]

Absolutely a hood, as for the case it will certainly be something he will like....people can be pretty picky about their cases.

I like the plane ticket idea, if Joe's up for the trip...a nice weekend...some sun.....a new camera.....

Things like little accessories are valuable gifts, but can sometimes be a little ho-hum compared to something like a camera....

Potentially, we could leave some of the funds in a future "for Joe" fund, just as little rewards throughout the year; film, filters, etc.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the Luigi Case idea is a fantastic one....Maybe Luigi's even willing to cut a deal. The case would of course have to be personalized, and maybe even have a little RFF graphic.

And the lottery idea is fantastic...has me drooling already. (I never win the lottery though, alas...)

[FrankS]

No offence taken whatsoever, Bryan. I'll simply ask Joe.

[Bryan Lee]

I'll ask Joe. Thanks for the details, Bryan!

Thanks Frank, I was typing while you were posting and in the end I have total faith you will figure out the details on all this and in the end well all be happy. This is about doing something good for a good guy and it couldnt have come at a better time after a few of us have been grouchy and suffering from cabin fever lately.
THANKS FRANK

[jlw]

Hire a green-eyed redhead to deliver the camera and spend the night? (Sorry, inappropriate)

I'm sure you meant a red-haired, green-eyed security guard named Mike O'Malley, who'd be ideally qualified for transporting valuable items. What's inappropriate about that?

[oftheherd]

I'd vote for a lens hood.. the rest donated to RFF.. I think buying a plane ticket is a nice thought, but a bit too much.. it might be inconvenient for Joe, and we don't need to make him go that far out of his way for something he didn't ask for

I agree. Plus, for some reason, I specifically remember Joe once mentioning in another thread how when he buys something in the States, he always stops at Customs on his return and pays his duties. That's good. One of the things we depend on here is Joe's integrity. Wouldn't want to sully it now.

[ch1]

Let's not forget that the SF area gets lots of rain in Jan/Feb.

Joe may wind up with "soggy skies" if he goes - but I agree it's really up to him.

Just keep in mind the sales taxes are going to come close to USD 200 if he "buys" it in Calif.

[peterc]

I vote for getting camera, lens and hood for Joe. Surplus to RFF (since I'm sure it isn't free to operate). Buy it in Joe's name (that will avoid Calif. taxes), ship to Trius for spiriting across the border and ship "next day" delivery to Joe.

Peter

[oftheherd]

I suggest the following:

Use the surplus fund to start a new concepts here. A lottery in which one person each month gets a lens or camera and only people paying into this fund are eligible. use the surplus to start this fund.

Wow, sounds like a Korean Keh. :D

For those who don't know, Korean women often enter into a keh, where all contribute a certain agreed upon amount for the number of months that there are members. Each month a different woman gets all the money. Works out well as long as all continue to contribute for all the agreed upon months. Of course, stores are rife about the first one or few not continuing to contribute. :mad: :D

Not that it would happen here of course. :angel:

[jlw]

If 100 people pay each month $5 each, we have $500 ready to go. If Joe's money should be spent on Joe, this is certainly propoer and fine, but we could start from scratch a monthly lottery.

I STRONGLY suggest you consult state laws before you start using RFF to advertise a lottery!! (Don't ask; it was a long time ago, but I found out about this the hard way. Let's just say that in most states, attorney general is an elective office, so they're not exactly adverse to publicity for busting out-of-state "gambling" operations.)

I also was struck by the similarity to the idea of a keh. The way I've read about it is that a group of families agrees to get together once a week for a potluck dinner. At the dinner, each chips in a set amount -- say, $20. Then they have a drawing, and whosever name is drawn gets the money.

What makes this different from a lottery is that once you've won, you're no longer eligible next time -- so eventually, everyone will win the pot once (you're honor-bound to stay in the group and keep contributing after you win.)

In mathematical terms, this means that the money you get out eventually is exactly equal to what you put in, so you're not actually gaining anything compared to what you'd get by socking away your own $20 every week for a year -- it's really a savings plan rather than a game of chance (thus avoiding legal problems.) Still, not everyone has the willpower to save $20 a week and leave it untouched for a year -- but in the dinner-game setting, you've got a social incentive to stick with the program, and every week you get to see somebody walk out with $1,040 (assuming it's a year-long cycle) knowing that sooner or later, that somebody is going to be you.

I'm not volunteering to set this up (it really works better in person) but there it is as an idea...

[Gid]

Camera, lens and hood sounds good to me, with the rest to RFF. Out of interest, how much would the Canadian duty be if it was done legit? Or is Canadian customs delays the issue?

Gid

[VinceC]

Out of curiosity, how much IS Canadian customs on a gift of this value? Shouldn't the generous member contibutions also go toward ensuring Joe has a legal, ethically procured camera? Or should he spend the rest of his life wondering if the tax authorities are going to catch up with him? Just a thought.

[dcsang]

Alright, enough revelling, let's keep this going to completion!

There are 2 issues to deal with at present: how to get the camera to Joe, and what to do with surplus funds and contributions that will continue to come in (mailed MO's and such).

The last is easiest to deal with first. Either we buy film and accessories to go with Joe's camera, or the surplus is directed towards the RFF site. I favour the latter. What do you guys think?

Now, how to get the camera to Joe? Any ideas?


I vote for the extra funds to go to the site.
As for the camera to Joe.. well.. seeing as how he's wayyyyyyyyyyy up there (points North of Calgary) .. how about we get a dogsled to deliver it to him :D

Dave

[JoeFriday]

how about we get a dogsled to deliver it to him :D
it's gotta be quicker than the postal service

[dcsang]

it's gotta be quicker than the postal service

Well.. I know we've got a remote office up there (emphasis on the word "remote" :D) but I don't know anyone up there; other wise I would have (ab)used the internal mail service here at work :D

Dave

[FrankS]

Good point Vince!

[GeneW]

However nice it would be to put the 'personal' touch on delivery, we could pay to have expedited, overnight courier delivery, even from the US. It costs a bit, but clears all the legalities, etc, and Joe would have the camera within a day or two of shipping, plus all the shipping and customs papers. Businesses frequently use this service for important items that they can't afford to have 'stuck' in customs.

Just a thought.

Gene

[VinceC]

I like Gene's idea best. A proper gift requires proper delivery. That's the cost of doing business. It also removes chances for errors or unexpected foul-ups.

[VinceC]

Another thought. Gene's idea would be the most expedient, getting the camera into Joe's hands conceivably the end of this week with no travel involved.

I'll also be a lone voice on the excess donations. They were intended for photo equipment for Joe. I think they should be quietly pooled until such time as the approximate amount is known. Then it could be turned over to Joe, perhaps in the form of a gift certificate from one of the sponsors. I'm going to make a guess that RFF advertisers already cover the fairly nominal cost of keeping the Website up and running. And yes, after a particularly fascinating thread a few months ago, I did donate a small fee to keep the site up and running.

[Goodyear]

I'm with ManGo.

And Gene.

Delivery should be above board without attempting to fudge customs - especially if there's already enough in the kitty to cover the duties.

[wlewisiii]

I also agree with Gene on the delivery and with Vince on the disposition of any excess. The contributions were specifically for joe, not any other purpose. Get the camera, lens and appropriate hood to joe and then tally up the remainder as an account for him to use at a later time.

William

[nickchew]

Seriously,
Can we get a $2 thank you card to go with it? I mean, this is all a nice gesture, but what we really want to say is "thank you" right? So how about someone actually sending a thank you card with the gift? (I'll do it myself if it is ok with Joe to give me his address.)

Also, I don't know how customs duties are calculated here (Quebec), but I paid nearly CDN$100 for my bessa R valued at about US$300 then. So it is a sizeable amount.

Nick

[ch1]

While I have no qualms about someone in the US legitimately acquiring the camera from outside Calif. to "avoid" the sales tax I have a lot of qualms about "evading" customs duties.

Why not finalize the tally and see where we are. I assume PopFlash can determine the custom duties (we know that their website is "equipped" for international sales). Since the item is going to an out of state purchaser (i.e. put sales receipt in Joe's name - after all we bought all those Joe Rizuttos!) there shouldn't be any Calif. sales tax.

There are merits to either using any "surplus" as an "accessories fund" for Joe (since it was with the intention of making a gift to Joe that resulted in the cash) or donating it to RFF. I'm indifferent to that issue.

[GeneW]

Also, I don't know how customs duties are calculated here (Quebec), but I paid nearly CDN$100 for my bessa R valued at about US$300 then. So it is a sizeable amount.
First, just to be technical, there are no custom duties on photographic equipment. What you paid was taxes and, most likely, a ridiculous brokerage fee. It should have been summarized on the waybill. With the right kind of expedited, overnight courier, the brokerage fees can be paid up front by the sender as part of delivery.

Taxes, though, have to be considered. Does Alberta still have no provincial sales tax? If so, then we should get the final tally in USD, convert to CDN, and calculate 7% GST. Perhaps this could be wired to Joe, or sent via money order because he'll have to pay this at his end.

Gene

[GeneW]

Seriously,
Can we get a $2 thank you card to go with it? I mean, this is all a nice gesture, but what we really want to say is "thank you" right? So how about someone actually sending a thank you card with the gift? (I'll do it myself if it is ok with Joe to give me his address.)
I really like the thank-you card idea. It would be neat to have everyone send one individually to Joe -- neat collection. And those who can, could send a photo postcard of a good RF image, or maybe a small print with a thank-you card inside?

Gene

[ch1]

......
Taxes, though, have to be considered. Does Alberta still have no provincial sales tax? If so, then we should get the final tally in USD, convert to CDN, and calculate 7% GST. Perhaps this could be wired to Joe, or sent via money order because he'll have to pay this at his end.

Gene

This is a good point. While it should be relatively easy to "avoid" Calif sales tax the purchase may well be subject to Cdn GST. Our friends on the "uptown" side of the border should know what tax liabilities may arise from a cross-border purchase since many of them have purchased stuff from "downtown" vendors here in the US.

[shutterflower]

Towards the site. I think that would be best.

[Andrew Touchon]

Whatever means is used to deliver the gift to Joe, I think the entire amount collected should be applied to Joe's present including the cost of shipping and taxes. I did not contribute to a RFF general fund or any other slush fund.

[FrankS]

We're a classy group and I thhnk we should go with Vince's sentiment about being above board with the Custom's charge.

Joe indicated to me that he is not fond of flying, so the airplane ticket idea is out. Some have expressed concerns about the appropriateness of that as well.

Gene's suggestion about deluxe shipping and Nick's about a card are very good and I think we should go that way.

The surplus funds issue seems to be devisive with some saying surplus should go to RFF, others saying surplus should still go to Joe. While money was collected in Joe's name, the goal was for a camera/lens and hood. (Joe said he wasn't big on cases.) That was exceeded. Shipping, taxes and Custom's charges should be covered too. Perhaps a poll to decide on surplus, or ask Joe?

[Socke]

Frank, first I'd like to personally thank you for conceiving and supervising this project.
Wonderful! Second, I agree that any surplus should go to RFF.

WELL DONE, FRANK!!!

Fred Morrison


I can' say it better myself so I just quote Fred!

[oftheherd]

I also agree with Gene on the delivery and with Vince on the disposition of any excess. The contributions were specifically for joe, not any other purpose. Get the camera, lens and appropriate hood to joe and then tally up the remainder as an account for him to use at a later time.

William

That is true that all were collected for Joe. However, most would probably not mind any excess going to Jorge. I don't, but don't mind it all going to Joe, perhaps as mentioned, as a gift certificate from a forum sponsor. Personally, I don't mind either way.

One thing I hadn't considered is that we should also pay for any customs duties with any excess. I sure agree with that. The value of the gift is lessened if Joe has to pay that. If there hadn't been an excess, I guess he would have been stuck or we would have had to kick in more. Since we know there will be an excess, I think it proper to pay any shipping and handling, and any duties.

If all agree with paying S&H and duties with any excess, let's do that. If there is still money left over, we can figure how much and debate its disposition after Joe has his well deserved gift free and clear.

How think you all?

[ch1]

The surplus funds issue seems to be devisive with some saying surplus should go to RFF, others saying surplus should still go to Joe. While money was collected in Joe's name, the goal was for a camera/lens and hood. (Joe said he wasn't big on cases.) That was exceeded. Shipping, taxes and Custom's charges should be covered too. Perhaps a poll to decide on surplus, or ask Joe?

Frank,

I thought of a poll too, but we cannot restrict it to the actual contributors so the result may not express the sentiment of the giftors.

I think we know what Joe will say - his humility is one of the things we are thanking him for.

So rather, I nominate YOU to make the decision and will support whatever you choose!

George

[oftheherd]

I really like the thank-you card idea. It would be neat to have everyone send one individually to Joe -- neat collection. And those who can, could send a photo postcard of a good RF image, or maybe a small print with a thank-you card inside?

Gene

Well, a Thankyou card is always a nice idea. However, with three threads full of heartfelt expressions from caring individuals ...

How could a card with sentiments from someone who doesn't know Joe top that!?

[FrankS]

Would anyone object to leaving the decision to me as opposed to conducting a poll?

[peterc]

However nice it would be to put the 'personal' touch on delivery, we could pay to have expedited, overnight courier delivery, even from the US
Gene has an excellent point. It's probably best to get it there as quickly as possible with all the legal and tax law ducks in a row.

Peter

[Honu-Hugger]

Hey:)

Sorry guys, but I don't like where this is going.

Firstly, I think we should get the camera/lens/shade combo and get that to joe asap. The excess should go to Jorge to pay for the server time (or whatever he spends the money to run this place), if everyone is agreeable to that. Paying for joe to fly down to wherever to pick up the camera is, I think, inappropriate.

As far as I am concerned, this has been a one-off. We have come together to turn small tokens of thanks into an appropriate gift for someone who helps make this place possible. I think now that we should return to doing what we do best - talk, discuss and rant about things rangefinderish. This isn't the lottery, a savings and loan, the credit union, or a christmas club. The path to such things is the path to heartache and the destruction of that which we hold dear, and I don't want a part of it.

ManGo

Hear, hear...

My vote is for the camera to be delivered ASAP and above board; camera, lens , and hood. I'd like to see any surplus go into the RFF general fund -- just my thoughts on this :)

[FrankS]

Let's get Joe his camera asap and pay for shipping, taxes, and customs.

Whatever is surplus to that we'll do a poll or leave for me to decide a bit later.

Okay?

[BJ Bignell]

The cost for Joe - or an agent on his behalf - to receive the kit inside Canada would be 7% of the value in Canadian dollars (we call it GST!), plus a $5 handling fee. So if the goodies were worth, say, $2500 Canadian dollars, it'd be $180.

[oftheherd]

Frank,

I thought of a poll too, but we cannot restrict it to the actual contributors so the result may not express the sentiment of the giftors.

I think we know what Joe will say - his humility is one of the things we are thanking him for.

So rather, I nominate YOU to make the decision and will support whatever you choose!

George

copake_ham - Frank was just trying to do something nice. Now here you are putting a big burden on Frank.

But I will support you. :D :D :D

Actually Frank, I would not personally put such a decision on you. Hopefully after purchase, shipping and taxes, there won't be too much left anyway. As I said, I am a little more in favor of a gift certificate, but not adamant about it. All to Joe or surplus to RFF, my personal stake in this has been well spent. Of course I don't know how much I have to say even as I was a late one to jump on the bandwagon.

[Kin Lau]

Would anyone object to leaving the decision to me as opposed to conducting a poll?

I'm okay with that.

[wlewisiii]

Would anyone object to leaving the decision to me as opposed to conducting a poll?

Not a problem for me. You've run this operation well so far.

William

[terrafirmanada]

I'd like to see the camera, lens and whatever else be delivered paying customs. Anything left can go RFF, but I think FrankS may decide.

[oftheherd]

I STRONGLY suggest you consult state laws before you start using RFF to advertise a lottery!! (Don't ask; it was a long time ago, but I found out about this the hard way. Let's just say that in most states, attorney general is an elective office, so they're not exactly adverse to publicity for busting out-of-state "gambling" operations.)

I also was struck by the similarity to the idea of a keh. The way I've read about it is that a group of families agrees to get together once a week for a potluck dinner. At the dinner, each chips in a set amount -- say, $20. Then they have a drawing, and whosever name is drawn gets the money.

What makes this different from a lottery is that once you've won, you're no longer eligible next time -- so eventually, everyone will win the pot once (you're honor-bound to stay in the group and keep contributing after you win.)

In mathematical terms, this means that the money you get out eventually is exactly equal to what you put in, so you're not actually gaining anything compared to what you'd get by socking away your own $20 every week for a year -- it's really a savings plan rather than a game of chance (thus avoiding legal problems.) Still, not everyone has the willpower to save $20 a week and leave it untouched for a year -- but in the dinner-game setting, you've got a social incentive to stick with the program, and every week you get to see somebody walk out with $1,040 (assuming it's a year-long cycle) knowing that sooner or later, that somebody is going to be you.

I'm not volunteering to set this up (it really works better in person) but there it is as an idea...

I never heard of whole families getting together, maybe sometimes they do. At any rate, I don't really think that is what we want to do here, or a lottery either (reread the post on lotteries and inherent dangers).

Cheers.

[ch1]

copake_ham - Frank was just trying to do something nice. Now here you are putting a big burden on Frank.

But I will support you. :D :D :D

Actually Frank, I would not personally put such a decision on you. Hopefully after purchase, shipping and taxes, there won't be too much left anyway. As I said, I am a little more in favor of a gift certificate, but not adamant about it. All to Joe or surplus to RFF, my personal stake in this has been well spent. Of course I don't know how much I have to say even as I was a late one to jump on the bandwagon.

How about this?

Whoever "gave" and feels strongly about the "surplus" issue should PM Frank with their "opinion".

It won't be a scientific poll but presumably someone who didn't contribute is unlikely to send a PM that could (if he wanted to) be verified by Frank.

As I said, I'm indifferent b/w the two choices and defer to Frank.

[FrankS]

We can simply delay the decision on the surplus until later, once it is all in and collected (MO's sent by mail).

I'm trying to learn more about the courrier service where we can pay all charges upfront and the delivery time is a day or 2.

Let's get this camera/lens/hood to Joe asap.

[Paulbe]

I think the camera, lens, and hood are great.
The rest should go to RFF to run things.
Paul

[RJBender]

I suggest the following:

Use the surplus fund to start a new concepts here. A lottery in which one person each month gets a lens or camera and only people paying into this fund are eligible. use the surplus to start this fund.

That might get the site shut down, Raid.

R.J.

[FrankS]

That might get the site shut down, Raid.

R.J.

Yes, let's not confuse the issue with this. If a lottery is possible/legal, then it can be discussed in a new thread, completely independent of this one.

The surplus contributions will either go to Joe or to the RFF site, but that can be decided later once it is all in.

[FrankS]

Does anyone know anything about the deluxe courrier method of shipping that GeneW mentioned which included paying for all charges upfront? Anyone? :)

[RJBender]

Out of curiosity, how much IS Canadian customs on a gift of this value? Shouldn't the generous member contibutions also go toward ensuring Joe has a legal, ethically procured camera? Or should he spend the rest of his life wondering if the tax authorities are going to catch up with him? Just a thought.

Excellent point, Vince. :)

R.J.

[FrankS]

Hi RJ, Due largely to Vince's sentiment, we've decided to go classy and aboveboard. Gene provided me with a link to a UPS deluxe courrier service:

UPS Worldwide Express Plus

Get the early morning delivery advantage for your rush shipments

Guaranteed Delivery by 8:30 a.m. or 9:00 a.m.

Guaranteed delivery by 8:30 a.m. on the next business day to Canada.
Guaranteed delivery by 9:00 a.m. the second business day to European countries.
A surcharge applies



Service Availability
UPS Worldwide Express PlusSMservice is guaranteed to more than 215 cities in Canada and Europe.

For specific guarantee details and service availability, use our online applications to calculate delivery time and estimate cost.

Benefits

Verbal confirmation of delivery
Immediate notification for both shipper and receiver if there is any change in delivery schedule
Combined with our powerful online tracking features, UPS Worldwide Express Plus is the right choice for your critical shipments
All-inclusive rates including customs clearance
Three free delivery attempts for unclaimed shipments

[RJBender]

That is true that all were collected for Joe. However, most would probably not mind any excess going to Jorge. I don't, but don't mind it all going to Joe, perhaps as mentioned, as a gift certificate from a forum sponsor. Personally, I don't mind either way.

One thing I hadn't considered is that we should also pay for any customs duties with any excess. I sure agree with that. The value of the gift is lessened if Joe has to pay that. If there hadn't been an excess, I guess he would have been stuck or we would have had to kick in more. Since we know there will be an excess, I think it proper to pay any shipping and handling, and any duties.

If all agree with paying S&H and duties with any excess, let's do that. If there is still money left over, we can figure how much and debate its disposition after Joe has his well deserved gift free and clear.

How think you all?


Give it all to Joe. Start another fundraiser for the site next week. Just my 2¢ worth.

R.J.

[RJBender]

I didn't kill this thread did I?

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/images/smilies/nervous.gif

R.J.

[rover]

We can simply delay the decision on the surplus until later, once it is all in and collected (MO's sent by mail).

I'm trying to learn more about the courrier service where we can pay all charges upfront and the delivery time is a day or 2.

Let's get this camera/lens/hood to Joe asap.


I am with Frank on this.

[ch1]

Hi RJ, Due largely to Vince's sentiment, we've decided to go classy and aboveboard. Gene provided me with a link to a UPS deluxe courrier service:

UPS Worldwide Express Plus

Get the early morning delivery advantage for your rush shipments

Guaranteed Delivery by 8:30 a.m. or 9:00 a.m.

Guaranteed delivery by 8:30 a.m. on the next business day to Canada.
Guaranteed delivery by 9:00 a.m. the second business day to European countries.
A surcharge applies



Service Availability
UPS Worldwide Express PlusSMservice is guaranteed to more than 215 cities in Canada and Europe.

For specific guarantee details and service availability, use our online applications to calculate delivery time and estimate cost.

Benefits

Verbal confirmation of delivery
Immediate notification for both shipper and receiver if there is any change in delivery schedule
Combined with our powerful online tracking features, UPS Worldwide Express Plus is the right choice for your critical shipments
All-inclusive rates including customs clearance
Three free delivery attempts for unclaimed shipments


Frank,

UPS is notorious for their "bloated" brokerage charges for good shipped from US to Canada. We've had some threads on that here.

Since time is of the essence I suggest you look into DHL or FedEx as possible alternatives.

George

[jmilkins]

Would anyone object to leaving the decision to me as opposed to conducting a poll?

FrankS - I'm happy with any descision you make on the surplus after camera, lens, hood & whatever duties are due (which surely wouldn't be too much from a per contributor basis, so as a group lets not make an issue of it) .

You've already demonstrated the spirit of this community in coming up with the idea and I'm sure your view on any surplus will be just fine.

thanks

[FrankS]

Thanks John.

George, I think with Joe's bad experience with UPS, another carrier would be best. (Even though Jan seems to want to mess with his head. :) )

[Paul Connet]

Hi RJ, Due largely to Vince's sentiment, we've decided to go classy and aboveboard. Gene provided me with a link to a UPS deluxe courrier service:

Frank, This thing is happening because of you. You deserve many thanks and a good bit of the effort. I just tuned in to the thread late yesterday and posted my $20 by Paypal. What I see now is just too many cooks stirring the pot.

The ball is in your hands, go with it and know we trust your judgement. :)

Thanks again,
Paul C.

[ch1]

Frank, This thing is happening because of you. You deserve many thanks and a good bit of the effort. I just tuned in to the thread late yesterday and posted my $20 by Paypal. What I see now is just too many cooks stirring the pot.

The ball is in your hands, go with it and know we trust your judgement. :)

Thanks again,
Paul C.

Amen to that!

[Alec]

Frank, you have all our trust, and more. [is that proper English?]
Do the right thing.
And let's deal with details after the deed is done [now that's alliterations!]

[Trius]

Hi,
Didn't someone say they could "carry"it across the border ans get it to Joe?

As to the funds, my vote is that we send the camera and lens "complete" ie case, hood etc but any other funds go to the site.

Kim
Yes, I can carry it across and get it to Joe. I do not have time at this moment to go through this entire thread. Frank, PM me if you need me.

Earl

[Gid]

FrankS,

I'll support whatever decision you make. Not abdication on my part, just trust.

Regards

Gid

[spenny]

First, just to be technical, there are no custom duties on photographic equipment. What you paid was taxes and, most likely, a ridiculous brokerage fee. It should have been summarized on the waybill. With the right kind of expedited, overnight courier, the brokerage fees can be paid up front by the sender as part of delivery.

Taxes, though, have to be considered. Does Alberta still have no provincial sales tax? If so, then we should get the final tally in USD, convert to CDN, and calculate 7% GST. Perhaps this could be wired to Joe, or sent via money order because he'll have to pay this at his end.

Gene

It's not quite correct that there are no import duties on cameras and/or lenses coming into Canada from U.S If the equipment was maufactured in North America there are no duties but if manufactured outside North Anerica then the import duties are, I believe, 6% on cameras and lenses.

[fgianni]

My vote is for the case, a ZI in a Luigi's half case, that's pure class!

[fgianni]

My vote is for the case, a ZI in a Luigi's half case, that's pure class!

Sorry Frank I did not see your earlier post.

Of course it's OK for me if you choose, it was your idea from the beginning!

[bcs89]

Would anyone object to leaving the decision to me as opposed to conducting a poll?


I also was a late comer, did not see this till this AM, but for what it is worth I say let Frank decide, I have no doubt the right thing will be done then.

scott

PS
Thank you all for such a great little corner of the web!

[VinceC]

I'm very comfortable in relying on Frank's judgment from here on out. He's the one who rallied the troops and made this whole thing happen.

[GeneW]

It's not quite correct that there are no import duties on cameras and/or lenses coming into Canada from U.S If the equipment was maufactured in North America there are no duties but if manufactured outside North Anerica then the import duties are, I believe, 6% on cameras and lenses.
Then I stand corrected. I was never charged extra, though, for any of the new Canon lenses I purchased from B&H a couple of years ago.

Gene

[fgianni]

My vote is for the case, a ZI in a Luigi's half case, that's pure class!

Sorry Frank I did not see your earlier post.

Of course it's OK for me if you choose, it was your idea from the beginning!

[Gabriel M.A.]

My vote: Surplus of anything left after covering customs, shipping, etc. etc., to go to RFF.

Short and sweet. After all, it is via this venue that all of this happened.

Besides...anybody noticed ss o mm e sl o w n e sss l a t
e ly?

Surplus to RFF.

[ch1]

I guess this driver won't be available to take the camera up north on his return trip! :D

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060117.wsmug0117/BNStory/National/

[Gabriel M.A.]

I suggest the following:

Use the surplus fund to start a new concepts here. A lottery in which one person each month gets a lens or camera and only people paying into this fund are eligible. use the surplus to start this fund.

That might get the site shut down, Raid.

R.J.
Hmm...anybody know of a good web host in Aruba? Wait, or was it Cayman Islands? ;)

[FrankS]

Tony e-mailed me, from his business trip in Hawaii, and suggested that we were worrying too much about shipping, and that he could handle it expediciously.

[Kin Lau]

Lets send each piece, ie hood, strap, lense, body, manual, to Joe separately via USPS ... then it'll generate the mother of all "waiting for the mail/I hate the Post Office/I hate customs" thread :D

[Gabriel M.A.]

At the risk of posting on a thread that may be getting old (I'm not up to date on everything that is going on on every single thread), may I suggest that only one thread be kept alive so that there is no further confusion as to what the state of events are?

[ch1]

Tony e-mailed me, from his business trip in Hawaii, and suggested that we were worrying too much about shipping, and that he could handle it expediciously.

I figured as much since his website is clearly geared to handle international (i.e. non-US) orders.

Best thing now is to get a finally tally on our funds and a final price w/taxes & shipping etc. and see where we stand.

Should be have Tony include a gift card or do we each want to send separte ones? Imagine Joe gettting 50 or so cards - it'll be like Christmas all over again!

[raid]

That might get the site shut down, Raid.

R.J.


I did not even give this a thought; if this is really a potential legal problem for RFF, then of course my suggestion is not a practical one.

[FrankS]

Yours was a very interesting idea, Raid. Perhaps it could be discussed in its own thread.

The surplus contributions to Joe may either go to another lens and a giftcard for Joe, or another lens and a donation to RFF, all depending on the amount that's left.

Tony is out of the country until Friday, and Josh wants/needs to defer to him. Popflash is out of stock on the Zeiss body (according to their website) anyway, so there is no rush to ship what isn't in stock yet. I've asked for prices from both Josh and Tony. I'm hoping Tony can give us a good one.

Deep breath everyone. We did good! :)

[GeneW]

I probably missed this in the stream of messages, but did we ever ask Joe if he prefers black or silver body? (assuming both are available)

Gene

[FrankS]

He indicated a slight preference for black but only if it is available soon. Anyone know when black is coming?

[rover]

I just sent an email to Hasselblad USA to see if there is a release date for a black body yet.

[FrankS]

I just sent an email to Hasselblad USA to see if there is a release date for a black body yet.

Joe doesn't want to wait that long! Silver it is.

Josh emailed me saying Tony would cover the shipping. A big thank you to Tony!

[John]

I suggest we just reimburse Joe if the courier requests brokerage and taxes at the door. He could pay it when it comes and we pay pal him the amount right away.

Alternatively the supplier will be charged the amount a week or two later on his shipping account, whom we could reimburse instead. When shipping by air, Fed Ex's fee for brokerage is a flat $7.49 base rate. I called tonight to confirm that, but I foggily remember it being different before. I thought it was base rate or 1% of value, whichever was higher. Anyway they said no tonight as long as the person I asked is correct. 7% GST is $175. Approximate total of $182.50. Shipping paid by supplier. Marked as gift could reduce the above but who knows?

Shipping papers will say origin USA. This works with a courier. If you mail it a customs person wanting to split hairs could notice "other origins" stamped on the camera.

[Nick R.]

After taxes, shipping, customs, and handling fees are all taken care of how about using any surplus for filters. They're the kind of item that doesn't get bought because the good ones are just a little bit more than one wants to spend for an item that only gets used occasionally. My two cents.

[RJBender]

I suggest we just reimburse Joe if the courier requests brokerage and taxes at the door. He could pay it when it comes and we pay pal him the amount right away.

Alternatively the supplier will be charged the amount a week or two later on his shipping account, whom we could reimburse instead. When shipping by air, Fed Ex's fee for brokerage is a flat $7.49 base rate. I called tonight to confirm that, but I foggily remember it being different before. I thought it was base rate or 1% of value, whichever was higher. Anyway they said no tonight as long as the person I asked is correct. 7% GST is $175. Approximate total of $182.50. Shipping paid by supplier. Marked as gift could reduce the above but who knows?

Shipping papers will say origin USA. This works with a courier. If you mail it a customs person wanting to split hairs could notice "other origins" stamped on the camera.


Well, it is a gift. :D Tony said not to worry about it, right? Let's see what Tony has to say when he gets back. ;)

R.J.

[John]

Ditto Nick R, we could get Joe the filter of his choice.
If a sizeable sum is left over we could add some accessories to the current contest. Hood, filters, Luigi case, bag. Just an idea because a RFF donation would be fine too. ;) ;)

[ch1]

Ditto Nick R, we could get Joe the filter of his choice.
If a sizeable sum is left over we could add some accessories to the current contest. Hood, filters, Luigi case, bag. Just an idea because a RFF donation would be fine too. ;) ;)

Not to mention a Ferrari and the green-eyed redhead in the passenger seat!

Just how much $ do you guys think we collected? :D

[Rick Waldroup]

I am checking out of this forum. Try this link- www.donatemoney2me.com. If that link does not work just google begging on the internet. This place was fun for a while but this is ridiculous. Hey, Joe do us a favor and donate the damn camera to a charity or a school or a student that might learn from it. Hell, I too would love a Zeiss Ikon. If this offends anyone, so be it. But this is definately my last post on this forum, so who cares?

[ch1]

I am checking out of this forum. Try this link- www.donatemoney2me.com. If that link does not work just google begging on the internet. This place was fun for a while but this is ridiculous. Hey, Joe do us a favor and donate the damn camera to a charity or a school or a student that might learn from it. Hell, I too would love a Zeiss Ikon. If this offends anyone, so be it. But this is definately my last post on this forum, so who cares?

Ciao, hasta la vista, adios, ta ta.

Er...don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out! :p

[unohuu]

Surplus

to

Site

Luke

[raid]

[QUOTE=FrankS]Yours was a very interesting idea, Raid. Perhaps it could be discussed in its own thread.

Frank: I posted something here:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=205253#post205253

Note that several people suggested that this may be not legal. I don't know much about law for such a situation. Maybe a lawyer or two could jump in and clarify.

[spenny]

Then I stand corrected. I was never charged extra, though, for any of the new Canon lenses I purchased from B&H a couple of years ago.

Gene

Gene: In my experience, if there is one thing consistent about importing stuff into Canada it is that the whole system appears to me to be incinsistent.

Spenny

[RJBender]

I am checking out of this forum. Try this link- www.donatemoney2me.com. If that link does not work just google begging on the internet. This place was fun for a while but this is ridiculous. Hey, Joe do us a favor and donate the damn camera to a charity or a school or a student that might learn from it. Hell, I too would love a Zeiss Ikon. If this offends anyone, so be it. But this is definately my last post on this forum, so who cares?


http://www.corvetteforum.cc/zeroimg/smilies/leaving.gif
Stick around and enter the contest.

If you divide the value of the camera by the number of hours Joe puts in keeping this place tidy, it's probably way below minimum wage. What's wrong with a gift to show our sincere appreciation of Joe's work here on RFF?

R.J.

[VictorM.]

My 2 cents: body, lens, hood to Joe for a job well done and the rest to the site. It'll make up for my attempt at a donation getting rejected (paypal issue?).

[Bryan Lee]

I am checking out of this forum. Try this link- www.donatemoney2me.com. If that link does not work just google begging on the internet. This place was fun for a while but this is ridiculous. Hey, Joe do us a favor and donate the damn camera to a charity or a school or a student that might learn from it. Hell, I too would love a Zeiss Ikon. If this offends anyone, so be it. But this is definately my last post on this forum, so who cares?


Do we have a case of CAMERA ENVY?

[Bryan Lee]

To bad Joe doesnt like to fly, As for any other decicion making now that the big decisions have been made I will leave the details to FRANK S and will stand by any decision you make Frank. For me this is a one time deal and its just about doing something nice for a nice guy who by they way has never asked for anything.

[FrankS]

Latest e-mail from Tony at Popflash.photo:

"The Silver bodies should be here by the end of next week. The Black versions have no ETA."

Silver it will be then. Sorry Joe, you'll have to wait a bit! :(

[brightsky]

Late to the party, but checking in anyway.

I think it would be a nice idea to include a matching hood and other accessories as the receiver desires.

As far as surplus funds, since this was your idear FrankS, IMO it should be your call.

It was *really* nice of Tony to pick up the freight. Popflash (Tony/Josh) are nicer to work with than any other vendor I've encountered.

[FrankS]

Here's my latest info:

the camera, 35mm lens and hood total $2212

money collected = $825(popflash) + $1785(paypal) = $2610

gross surplus = $400

Tony will cover the shipping (info from Josh)

Joe will require $200 for taxes/customs to make everything legit

net surplus = $200

I spoke with Jorge, and he says that at the moment the RFF site is okay.

I'm thinking that the $200 extra should go to Joe for a filter and some film.

What do you guys think?

[Rich Silfver]

Gift certificate at a Canadian camera store?

[RJBender]

Here's my latest info:

the camera, 35mm lens and hood total $2212

money collected = $825(popflash) + $1785(paypal) = $2610

gross surplus = $400

Tony will cover the shipping (info from Josh)

Joe will require $200 for taxes/customs to make everything legit

net surplus = $200

I spoke with Jorge, and he says that at the moment the RFF site is okay.

I'm thinking that the $200 extra should go to Joe for a filter and some film.

What do you guys think?

What about adapters so Joe can use his Canon lenses on the ZI? Someone suggested that yesterday.

R.J.

[FrankS]

Good idea, RJ.

$200 for filter, lens adaptors, film

[rbiemer]

I had a suggestion but in the interest of taking the high road and low heart rates, I'll agree w/FrankS and say use the surplus for film.
Rob

[bcs89]

Here's my latest info:

the camera, 35mm lens and hood total $2212

money collected = $825(popflash) + $1785(paypal) = $2610

gross surplus = $400

Tony will cover the shipping (info from Josh)

Joe will require $200 for taxes/customs to make everything legit

net surplus = $200

I spoke with Jorge, and he says that at the moment the RFF site is okay.

I'm thinking that the $200 extra should go to Joe for a filter and some film.

What do you guys think?



Sounds perfect to me - the only thing missing is a very big thank you to FrankS for conceiveing/coordinating this great idea - Thanks Frank!

scott

[hiwatt]

Filter, adaptor and film is perfect.

[Goodyear]

Here's my latest info:

<snip>

What do you guys think?
Yes. Frank, you are the man with the plan.

[rover]

This is all resolved at this point. Frank announced the resolution on another thread. (1/2 to Joe and 1/2 to RFF)

[VictorM.]

I'd go with whatever Frank says...and thanks again, Frank, for an excellent idea. Ignore those who think otherwise (money changes everything-and everyone).

[GeneW]

Sounds perfect to me - the only thing missing is a very big thank you to FrankS for conceiveing/coordinating this great idea - Thanks Frank!

scott
Hear, hear! Frank, you conceived and pulled off an extraordinary gesture of thanks. Now our thanks to you!

BTW, Frank, do you do hire out for birthdays? :D

Gene

[FrankS]

Birthdays, no. I'm a wedding planner on the side. ;) ha, ha, joke.