Which medium format for me ?

[fredus]

Hi there,

I've used a Yashica Mat 124 for the past 2 months and I'm really delighted with it. It's not so much about the nice negatives I'm getting (don't get me wrong, I love them !) but it's also about the slower process than 35mm and the view I get in the viewfinder ! I can walk during hours just looking in the finder ! :-)

I'd like to upgrade to something a bit better and get maybe a feel at these great brands known as Mamiya and Hasselbad ... I've 2 choices in my mind right now: Mamiya M645 super or Hasselbad 500cm ... I will get a standard lens at first since this is my favorite field of view ... Are these camera reasonable choice for someone fairly new in medium format ? Are there any other choices I should consider ? What I'm looking for is a well build camera and definitely a 3D like finder (which is what I get from my Yashica ...)

Thanks for your help !

Fred

[Todd.Hanz]

the hasselblad will be similar to the Yashica in that you can still use the WLF, or get a prism finder. Both the Hassy and Mamiya will suit you well, the Hassy may be a bit less expensive though.

Todd

[onespeed]

try a folder there are some great ones and yeah they fixed lenes but the quality is really great some also have coupled rangefinders look up jurgen kreckel and peruse his site it could change your mind
R,

[rover]

Most modern MF SLRs are of very good quality. Do you like the 6x6 format of your YashicaMat? If so then a 500cm is a great choice as already stated.

The Bronica SQAi/SQB and older cameras are also very good, the lenses are quite good. If you want to go a bit older a Kowa kit would do.

For a lesser price, one of the remanufactured FSU kits may be an option.

[David Goldfarb]

If you're planning to stick to one or two lenses get a Hasselblad. A 500cm right now with a 12-exposure back and an outstanding normal lens is very affordable, as is most MF equipment right now. With Hassy equipment though, it's the third or fourth lens that is going to be where it starts to get pricy.

Mamiya RB67 equipment is another excellent and very affordable system right now, but the camera is more of a handful than a Hassy, which is quite handholdable.

If you like having a very extensive system with a wide choice of lenses and backs but can't afford to do that with Hasselblad, consider the Bronica SQ-series or even the old S2a. I've got a pretty extensive S2a system with two bodies, a wide range of lenses from 40mm to 500mm, 5 backs, Polaroid, tilt-shift bellows, grips, prisms, etc, that all told probably cost around $3K including CLAs and some custom lens adaptations. Right now you could probably do it for even less.

I'm not a big fan of 645 SLRs unless one wants to have only one camera system and can't commit to either 35mm or MF. It's definitely an improvement over 35mm, but for the additional bulk of the system, I'd rather have a 6x6 or larger. I do like to print square, though, and even if you crop to 645, with 6x6 you get to choose where you crop from, so it's a bit like having the rise and shift movements on a view camera.

[zpuskas]

I agree with rover, Bronica is a very good buy now. I've had a SQ-A for over 15 years and never had a problem. My only regret is what I paid and what it's worth now--as with all medium format, prices have dropped dramatically.

[fredus]

mmm good point David ... For the Bulk, I might as well go the largest possible and I really like the look of 6x6 .. Didn't think too much of an folder. I'm browsing the recommended website and find it fascinating .. I might pick up a cheap one for the heck of it ...

I'll look into the bronica system ... I really don't want an extensivwe system ... A standard lens and a portrait lens will be enough for me.

Thanks for all these idea folks !

Fred

[remrf]

I own both the Mamiya 645 and a C-3 and a Rolleicord as well. Hands down my favorite is the 645. I put together a three lens system with an M body for about $400.00. For me the camera is more intuitive and ergonomic in its use than the C-3. The Rolleicord is,like the Yashicas (which I have also owned) a joy to use but is limited to the single focal length.

I like the 645 so much I am seriously contemplating selling off my Mamiya TLR gear. I have two lenses (105mm and a 180mm) and both waist level and eye level finders. If someone simply must have a Mamiya TLR then give me a ping.

[James Burton]

...the Hassy may be a bit less expensive though.


The Bronicas are even less expensiver.

ETRSi (6x4.5) are very cheap, SQAi (6x6) are not much more. I have an SQAi
and it's fantastic. Now if I could only learn to use it :-)

Thanks,
James

[fredus]

I love you guys ... You're expanding my choices ten folds ... Looking into the bronica system .. They look really nice and cheap !!!

So Hasselbad 500cm (or 501 ... Need to find out about the difference)
Bronica SQxx .. Need to find out about the variant ...
Mamiya 6 is a different animal but it looks nice as well and since I'm a Leica M fan, it might suits me well !

Fred

[fredus]

Can you use these SLR without a tripod .. Looks like the mirror really flaps ... I guess it would be easier with a rangefinder such as the mamiya 6 ... mmm ... How about noise ?? I guess pretty noisy for me who is used to the Leica M ...

[rover]

No problems handheld with a 6x6. I try to keep my Hassy at 1/125 or more with the 80 and have had no issues.

Doug made comments a few weeks ago about using the Mamiya, RZ67 I believe. He also shoots hand held.

[fredus]

I have trouble really seeing the size of the Bronica SQ-A ... Does someone have a picture of a standard system (body, back, grip and maybe prism finder) taken next to a SLR or a Leica or a film canister ... So I can realize the bulk of the system ?? It seems huge on this picture for example ...

http://www.ritzcam.com/catalog/images/B-SQAs.jpg

[x-ray]

Hasselbald 500cm is a great choice too. Make sure you get a "CF" lens, not a "C". They don't make the parts for the "C" series lenses anymore, so any servicing may become difficult/expensive in the future.

The shutter self distructed in my 150 sonnar C T* back in November. I was in Atlanta and dropped it at KEH repairs for an estimate. I dropped it on Friday and had an estimate on Monday to replace all the blades (parts from Hasselblad) and the cost was $185 for a total cla and new parts. The lens was back in the studio the next week. I also had my 500CM cla at Koh Camera and the cost was very reasonable. If I remember correctly it was around $145. I think there are plenty of parts available for the older C and C T* lenses. They're a great deal and I plan to buy a clean 120 and 60. I traded a total sustem with C lenses from 40 up back when the CF lenses came out and bought a 2000FCM. Bad mistake. Every piece went back to the shop within a year. I've had almost no repairs out of my 20+ year old 500CM and C lenses. From time to time light seals in the backs have to be replkaced but you can buy the seals on ebay for around five bucks and replace them in about five minutes each.

I've owned three MF systems over the fourty plus years of commercial photography. My all time favorite was my Rollei SL66's. I used three for twenty five years and had almost no problems until the last few years. I had run over a nundred thousand rolls through them without any real problems. In the end they were just worn out. Repairs became difficult and I deceided to sell them. I purchased a friends SWC and 500CM system and like it but not like the Rollei. It's small and well built but strange feeling since I used Rollei so many years. I preciously had Hasselblads prior to the Rollei and during a period that I worked for an Ad agency. I also had Pentax 6x7. These are fantastic and extremely high quality bodies and lenses. They're very cheap now and a super value. Take a look at them.

Don't overlook the non T* lenses. I've had both and the only difference is if there is a light source in the shot that might flare and then it's not much of a problem.

I would suggest if you're on a budget a 500C with a non T* 80mm and old style A12 back. Even the old 12 back is good but a little slower to load. You should be able to pick up a nice one for around $500-600.

[David Goldfarb]

I tried a friend's SQ-A with exactly that setup shown--the prism and rapid wind grip--and found it to be more like handling a 35mm SLR than any other medium format camera I've tried, including the Pentax P67. It's very light and intuitive.

[DougK]

Don't write off Pentax. KEH has some great deals on Pentax 645 manual focus gear right now. I got one for peanuts with a 75mm lens and it looks like it rolled off the assembly line yesterday.

[pvdhaar]

As an owner of a Bronica SQB, I can do nothing but put in another vote for them. I've had mine since 1999 and although the handle bar on the advance leaver fell off once, it never failed in operation. On top of that, I'm extremely pleased with the performance of the 80mm/2.8.

Nice thing about the Bronica ETRS/SQ/GS lines is that all lenses are leaf-shutter lenses, which means that you can sync flash at all shutter speeds, upto 1/500.

I've attached a couple of pics, all taken with the 80/2.8..

[gchpaco]

If you have the right accessories, the 6x6 and 645 SLRs are very handholdable. I didn't bother picking them up for my S2A. Mirror slap will mean you probably won't be able to handhold nearly as low as you're used to, but the 645s are pretty good about it all told and tend to have well damped mirrors.

That said, once you get them on tripods they tend to be a total dream to work with. This is especially true with the 6x6s (no flopping the thing on its side) or the RB/RZ67 (rotating back; big and heavy tho). I have a lot of medium format cameras, and for my money if I'm going to bring the tripod, I'm only bringing my Bronica. My preposterously large Fujis are really nice for handheld shots, but MF SLRs are almost always designed for tripod use and are really really convenient there.

[shutterflower]

RF645 !!!!!!!!!!!

Duh !!!!

go here and find out why you should buy this camera and nothing else :

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14424

[ClaremontPhoto]

Robert White's Bronica ETRSi is at a very good price right now.

[Terry Collins]

Have you considered the Mamiya 7 or 7II medium format 6x7 rangefinder. Superb build quality and stunningly sharp lenses. These cameras are highly portable and easy to use hand held. I use a Mamiya 7 with a 65mm lens (the best choice for good all round use). There are only minor differences in spec between the 7 and the 7II bodies and a second hand 7 with this lens can be obtained for less cost than a 7II.

Good luck

Terry Collins
(just joined)

[jamiewakeham]

About two years ago, I got a brand-new Arax MLU (re-worked Kiev 88, which is itself a Hassy clone). At the time I think it was the right call. Nowadays Bronica has got so damn cheap I might choose used SQ over new Arax gear.

However, getting something with a Pentacon-Six mount does let you use the utterly wonderful Sonnar 180/2.8, which is one hell of a medium format portrait lens!

Jamie

[narsuitus]

If you are delighted with the Yashica Mat 125, you should definitely consider a 6x6 Rolleiflex TLR.

[Max Power]

I had a C220 for a good while, and really enjoyed it, but there were two things I couldn't really warm up to: 6x6 and TLR. Yeah, I know, that's pretty much the whole point of a C220:D

I ended up selling it to a friend, and picked up an M645 1000S. SLR and 645 really works for me. I picked up an 'L-Grip' for about $20 on eBay and it made all the difference for hand-holding it.

The format and SLR thing make it all great!

Kent

[Steve Bellayr]

Consider what type of pictures that you want to take. Are you setting the camera on a tripod or walking about in the street. As I recall the Yashica Mat 124 has a meter. The Hasselblad 500 c/m does not. You will need a meter to get the most out of that camera. I don't think it as as conducive as the TLR for street work. Lenses are exorbitant. Fantastic for portraits, indoor architecture and landscapes. You will need additional lenses. But, it is a great camera. Some of the cameras come with lenses that are much less expensive.

[Spina74]

I've used many low cost MF. a cheep seagul TLR (it's really cheap, but its quality is rather poor), a yashica MAT (cheap but beter quality), a moskva 5 RF ( very good quality for BW) ad a pentacon SIX.

the overall qulality is rather good, and you can find camera like new for about 200$. You will have a great variety of choice for the lens. The newest Zaiss Jena lens are multicoated and the quality is very good. i've a 50, 80, 120. I've also a russian 150. All the lens will cost 500$ like new.

[oftheherd]

Only you can decide what you want in negative size. I am not a big fan of 645 since it is not that big. Granted, it is bigger than 35mm. I am not a big fan of 6x6 because as already stated, it ends up most people crop to more like 645 for printing. I think it was ShadowFox that mentioned you get to pick what part of the negatvie you will crop from, and that is very true. I used to do that often with the Yashica MAT 124 G I had many years ago. I really loved that camera because it was the first serious Mf I every had and I loved the idea it had a built in light meter that was quite usable.

However, having gotten a Mamiya Super Press 23, a 6x7, I really like it. (of course no one on this forum would know that. :D :D ) What I like about it besides the fact it is a 6x7, is that it is a system camera. It has interchangable lenses and backs, perspective control with a bellows back, extension tubes for closeups, framelines for 100mm (the standard), 150mm and 250mm lenses, and that with changing frame lines for closeups. The other lenses require an auxillary viewfinder, but are rangefinder coupled (the one exception is the older 250mm f/8 which is not rangefinder coupled). All lenses are tack sharp. The 50mm is equivalent ot 24mm on 35mm cameras, the 65mm to 28mm, the 100mm is normal, the 150mm is like a 75mm, and the 250mm is like a 135mm telephoto. All lenses have their own leaf shutters, from B to 1/500, so flash is to 1/500 synched. All also have a method of keeping them open for focusing on ground glass. Since all lenses are leaf shutter, they will be quieter than an SLR.

You can get 6x7 and 6x9 backs, but the 6x9 are more rare unless in the triple format of 645, 6x6 and 6x9. All backs take 120 or 220 film. The 6x7 backs are more common, and wind on with a crank like a 35mm camera.

The camera should come with a handle mounted on the left of the camera. There is a button in the handle that controls a shutter release cable for all lenses. The backs extend far enough to grip with the right had for gripping stability. I have found it quite 35mm like in use, and very hand holdable.

Being a 6x7, it is a little heavy, but not as much as you would think, and a wide strap helps that a lot. It isn't easy to get cut film, but there are 3 different focusing backs, two of which take cut film holders. Sorry, no built in meter so you will need a separate light meter. I used a Sekonic L28c2 for years, and the Gossen Luna Pro is also good.

Well, I suppose you think I like the Super Press 23. You are right. Of course there is also a Universal model which lacks the bellows back but with an adapter will take gralock cut film holders or roll film backs. What's not to like?

But, maybe not for you. Like all other MF systems, they are coming down in costs. You can find the newer and older models on fleabay all the time. I don't recommend the olders one for both their age and esthetics. Due to their age you may end up needing cla, but that is true of all older MF systems you may choose. I have had good luck with mine. I have had mine with the 100mm f/3/5 lens for over 30 years with no real problems. I purchased the 65mm lens, then the 50mm, then the 150. Only the 65mm gave me a problem, with the shutter jamming. The others have been fine, and the 50mm I know was used commercially before I got it.

Good luck in your choices. Frankly, I don't think you willl hate any MF system just because of the negative size. The problem comes if you keep wanting to get bigger negatives is you start with a 645.

[Finder]

Who crops 6x6? That is kind of like saying there is no point in going to 6x12 or 6x17 because you can't fit the apsect ratio on a piece of paper. I can't even think of a 6x6 image on RFF that has been cropped from square. All my images regardless of format are printed full frame and printing and paper size has not limited that.

[FrankS]

Who crops 6x6? That is kind of like saying there is no point in going to 6x12 or 6x17 because you can't fit the apsect ratio on a piece of paper. I can't even think of a 6x6 image on RFF that has been cropped from square. All my images regardless of format are printed full frame and printing and paper size has not limited that.

This is a personal decision and based on how one sees and shoots. Very occasionally I have an image that looks better as a square, but most times by far, I find that by cropping to rectangular, the image from one of my 6x6 cameras looks better TO ME.

Finder, take your avatar for example. I find that by cropping either the bottom OR the left side, the image becomes more pleasing TO ME. (That way, her hands are not so dead center in an otherwise nonsymetrical composition.) Like I said, it's purely a personal aesthetic thing about how you see and shoot. I completely respect your decision on composing and printing the way you did, as I know everyone makes their own choices as to what suits them better, and there is no right or wrong way.

[GeneW]

Using a Hasselblad is something akin to using a Leica -- there's a sense of quality about it that makes you want to go out and try to make great pics. I have a 500C/M with 80mm Planar. What a lens!

I like composing in the square and rarely crop my 6x6 shots. My main problem with MF is that my Epson 2450 scanner can't pull out the full detail of the negative (and I long ago gave up darkroom work). Some day maybe I'll find a good price on a Nikon 8000.

Gene

[Ken Ford]

I know the OP is long, long gone, but...

I truly enjoy working a photo with my 500c/m - it forces me to climb inside the waistlevel. I'm one of those twits that prints full frame with dirty borders, too - working with the square format is a wonderful mental challenge.

[Bob Michaels]

The only thing not perfect with the Mamiya 7 is the price. But I don't regret the money I paid for mine as it's well worth it.

As far as MF SLR's, the Bronica SQA system if hard to beat for the price they go for these days. Good glass, rock solid, and prices are cheap. My SQA is the only SLR I own.

[f/stopblues]

The only thing not perfect with the Mamiya 7 is the price. But I don't regret the money I paid for mine as it's well worth it.

Really, the only thing that kept me off this camera was the close focus distance. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I know there's not a lens that you can get close enough for a tight head shot. Its inherent with rangefinders of course, but this one seemed extreme.

I'm always surprised the Bronica GS-1 is hardly ever mentioned! It's a 6x7 SLR similar to the RB67. It's probably not as robust, but it is cheaper and there's no compromise in image quality. I hand hold regularly down to 1/125 and really enjoy the camera!

[rxmd]

I would get the 645 because it offers you much more lens options. Mamiya's own lenses are great, and you can use all the excellent and cheap Carl Zeiss Jena and Russian lenses with an adapter. This is impossible on a 500-series Hasselblad because it doesn't have a shutter in the body. OK, it's with stopdown operation, but that's not much of a problem in practice - medium format work is slower anyway.

Since the whole point of an interchangeable lens system is the interchangeable lenses, I would try to maximise the use you make of this. (The adapter costs $35 at Arax, and you get lenses like the 30mm fisheye for under $200 or the 50mm and 180mm Zeiss lenses for under $100.)