View Full Version : I cheated; do you?
Today, I put aside my rangefinder camera, and I took out my trusted Canon F1N SLR along with a Canon 85mm/1.2L lens and loaded the F1 with a roll of EFKE ASA 25 film. I decided to be fair to my SLR system and to give one SLR some use. It felt good to look through the viewfinder of the F1 and it was great to have a built-in spotmeter. It was like a reunion with an old relative after not seeing him for some time. Focusing was a snap, and it was reassuring to actually see the effect of what I would be getting at 1.2. Not to put RF down, it just felt good to "cheat" on my rangefinders today :angel:
Do you have similar encounters?
Not since my SL35M threw me over for a new owner about a year ago. But it went to a forum member so maybe he cheats.
I've been back into rangefinder shooting for maybe 9 months now after 30 years of strictly SLR and P&S. The rangefinders (I have 2, a Canon GIII and a Mamiya SD) are my main available/low light cameras, but I shoot a lot of everyday stuff with an Olympus Stylus and a Pentax K1000.
bmattock
12-29-2005, 19:09
Today, I put aside my rangefinder camera, and I took out my trusted Canon F1N SLR along with a Canon 85mm/1.2L lens and loaded the F1 with a roll of EFKE ASA 25 film. I decided to be fair to my SLR system and to give one SLR some use. It felt good to look through the viewfinder of the F1 and it was great to have a built-in spotmeter. It was like a reunion with an old relative after not seeing him for some time. Focusing was a snap, and it was reassuring to actually see the effect of what I would be getting at 1.2. Not to put RF down, it just felt good to "cheat" on my rangefinders today :angel:
Do you have similar encounters?
Sure, we all enjoy a little strange now and then. I just got back to my PC from my little makeshift home studio - used my DSLR to take product shots of ... gasp ... film.
http://www.cameramentor.com/images/era_imgp6117.jpg
This weekend or next, it will go into my Bessa R. Or my Bessaflex. Who knows?
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Today, I put aside my rangefinder camera, and I took out my trusted Canon F1N SLR along with a Canon 85mm/1.2L lens and loaded the F1 with a roll of EFKE ASA 25 film. I decided to be fair to my SLR system and to give one SLR some use. It felt good to look through the viewfinder of the F1 and it was great to have a built-in spotmeter. It was like a reunion with an old relative after not seeing him for some time. Focusing was a snap, and it was reassuring to actually see the effect of what I would be getting at 1.2. Not to put RF down, it just felt good to "cheat" on my rangefinders today :angel:
Do you have similar encounters?
Truth be told - I cheat on a regular basis.
Now don't get me wrong - if I ever get another chance to upload some more pics to the Gallery - they too will be pure RF ones. On this site I remain virginal. (No not the other word - "squint" and read it correctly!)
But hey, I began life on the "dark side" and just cannot let that fruit go to waste now can I? ;)
I suggest that we do our level best to remain RF pure here but maybe we can convince Jorge to open a film-only SLR site where we can engage in our "alternative" pleasures. :cool:
When I have to use an SLR, I don't regard it as cheating. I regard it as depressing.
How about a "Cheaters" forum here in the RFF? This will allow some of us to share our guilt trips, and maybe we will be forgiven?
Gabriel M.A.
12-29-2005, 19:35
Nah. I don't cheat on my rangefinders. They have a very open relationship. They're all cameras. :)
dostacos
12-29-2005, 19:45
I don't consider it cheating, on the other hand since I got the Bessa R I have not done a lot with my SLRs.
AND there are some things the SLR is better at, big glass 200-500MM lenses
Yep, but my Bessa understands :D. Mostly it depends on my mood that day when I decide to go shoot or if I have a specific type of shooting I want to do.
back alley
12-29-2005, 20:09
i do not cheat.
i can't.
except for my little canon g2 digital i only own rangefinders.
after 30 years of involvement in photography i know what i like to shoot & how i like to shoot it.
almost all street and rf all the way. about the only thing that changes is what focal length is my main pov.
for years it was 85 or so, now it's 35 and 28 is moving up slowly...
as for a cheater's corner, i have to say that i hope i never see one here.
there are tons of photo sites out there but where else do they speak rf 24/7?
joe
Brian Sweeney
12-29-2005, 20:13
Cheating is synthesizing an image using all digital techniques.
I've done that too. It took me a while to convince people that they were not looking at actual pictures. But that was back in the 80's.
I alternate between rangefinder, SLR and TLR cameras as I feel the need. It keeps things interesting so I don't burn out on any single type of camera. All of my gallery images are 100% rangefinder but I will illustrate a point with an image taken with any camera if it suits the discussion. I do not guild the lilly by claiming that the images were made by anything other than what they were but I often don't say because the picture should make it's own statement.
Walker
nwcanonman
12-29-2005, 21:49
It's a lot like the Digital vs Film debate, "Which one's better?". It's not a competition. Just different horses for different courses.
In any one day I'll carry my Bessa R, with my F3/T or Yashicamat and have a digital P&S in a pocket too. I think a great majority of list members use SLR's and RF's too.
I think most of us here have a wide assortment of cameras. I have 4x5, 2 1/4, 35slr, 35rf.
I shot some film tests today (just posted in darkroom section). I have 2 Nikon FE's with 55 micro Nikkors, so it was convient for the film test.
Don't feel guilty!!!!
richard_l
12-29-2005, 22:10
I still use my Nikon FM2(n) SLR from time to time. It's entirely manual/mechanical, just like my rangefinders.
I usually have a few Pentaxes loaded and ready to go; at least one 35mm and a 6x7. On my vacation to the California desert in October I took a 6x7 and a Bronica RF645, so not all my pics will appear in the gallery. :)
I've taken more digital photos recently than analogue ones. Faithless ******* that I am.
vincentbenoit
12-30-2005, 04:44
Do you have similar encounters?Canon 24mm f/1.4 on an EOS body... Is there an equivalent in the RF world?
vincentbenoit
12-30-2005, 05:20
An "EOS body" Vincent? What sort of film do you use, Lexar or Sandisk? I think we should be told!Tri-X, of course... ;)
(Okay, I give in, sometimes it's SanDisk but then the lens is not really 24mm anymore... Funny how this "digital film" tends to be smaller than full-frame... Put it in the wrong camera and it shrinks!)
Canon 24mm f/1.4 on an EOS body... Is there an equivalent in the RF world?
Close?
A 24mm f2.0 FD on a VI-L ?
Bertram2
12-30-2005, 05:34
TFocusing was a snap, and it was reassuring to actually see the effect of what I would be getting at 1.2. Not to put RF down, it just felt good to "cheat" on my rangefinders today :angel:
Do you have similar encounters?
Yes. In general I always found polygamy to be the supeior concept . :angel:
bertram
vincentbenoit
12-30-2005, 05:34
Close?
A 24mm f2.0 FD on a VI-L ?Nice... Close, but not quite!
Do you have similar encounters?
My plan for today (Friday) is to load my Nikon FE with a roll of Delta 100 and venture out with three pre-AI Nikkors (35/2, 50/1.4, 135/2.8) and do a little shooting.
Peter
Todd.Hanz
12-30-2005, 05:48
I've spent too much money on my other cameras to consider using them "cheating", they are like an expensive mistress, I just hope my M3 doesn't get jealous when I'm gazing into those "Twin lenses" of my Rolleiflex's :)
Todd
Holding a Dynax (aka Minolta Maxxum) 9 + grip + 2.8/28-70 + big cobra flash + reflector yields both generally good indoor colour pictures and a good workout (I don't have to subscribe to a gym).
After a day with that plus a shoulder bag full of decent SLR lenses, you develop a longing for your RF gear.
I don't consider this relationship cheating, more like a purely hygienic endeavour.
My Nikon FG has been getting a lot of use lately. Usually with a Nikkor 35 f2 or the ever popular 105 f2.5.
For Christmas I got a Maxxum 5D.
And now I think I want a Spotmatic.
Today, I put aside my rangefinder camera, and I took out my trusted Canon F1N SLR along with a Canon 85mm/1.2L lens and loaded the F1 with a roll of EFKE ASA 25 film. I have been on the lookout for a nice F1n to add to my FD lens collection. If you ever want to get rid of it let me know. :D
Theo-Prof
12-30-2005, 06:19
I have had a rangefinder (Bessa-R) now for only about 8 months. I have cheeted but primarily becasue I did not have a RF lens of the right focal length or I wanted the larger image I get from my Pentax 67.
Kevin
Is there a TLR forum? I know that there is some TLR chatter here but I sense that it is not quite "accepted" and most of my shooting is done with a TLR (Mamiya C220), although my Zorki 4 is a close second. I'm also not sure of the acceptability of posting images from my "not quite RF" cameras: Kodak Retinette and Ansco Speedex 4.5 - - both "guess & check" focusing.
I really enjoy the forum and I feel like I know many of you, just from reading your posts each day, and I completely understand the sentiment of not wanting to make this the "Not an SLR" Forum rather than the RFF - - and I don't want to press my luck by posting non-RF pictures, topics, etc.
So, is there a TLR forum? If so, are any of you also active there? It would be nice to take along the same collection of (almost) friends...
bmattock
12-30-2005, 07:24
So, is there a TLR forum? If so, are any of you also active there? It would be nice to take along the same collection of (almost) friends...
The closest thing would probably be the "Classic Camera" forum over at PN, but that's not as friendly or as well-trafficked as RFF.
Not a good solution for your problem, it would seem - TLRs are fun and many of enjoy them, but there are a lot fewer TLR shooters than RF shooters, so I kind of doubt that a TLR-only forum would gain much traction.
We could always beg Jorge/Joe for a TLR forum on RFF with the proviso that that posts not show up on the 'new posts' display to avoid offending sensitive eyes, but my guess is that they'd be against that, just based on previous discussions.
But we can always snatch a few words here and there about TLR's, and I'm ok with that. Welcome, by the way.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
KoNickon
12-30-2005, 07:42
I'd love more discussions on TLRs here, though they are technically off-topic, of course.
To the original question, I don't think of using SLRs as cheating; rather, more like exploring an alternative lifestyle! I use SLRs all the time -- they're what I started with and I don't see myself abandoning them. I just shot two rolls up in Maine with my Leicaflex SL and several Leitz R lenses. Much fun.
Yes, I cheat (mostly with a ~shudder~ digital SLR, a Canon 20D).
oftheherd
12-30-2005, 08:02
Today, I put aside my rangefinder camera, and I took out my trusted Canon F1N SLR along with a Canon 85mm/1.2L lens and loaded the F1 with a roll of EFKE ASA 25 film.
...
I don't consider it cheating, as others have said, whatever tool seems best, or sometimes just what I want out of the photo. It might be SLR, or TLR, and one of these days I will get brave and grab the 4x5 that is sitting on the shelf looking reprovingly at me.
Which brings me to a question for you. How do you like the EFKE 25? Is it like the old Adox? I have been toying with getting some in 35mm, MF and 4x5.
Yes, I cheat (mostly with a ~shudder~ digital SLR, a Canon 20D).
Hey look, it's one thing to do a little "foolin' around" with a cute SLR; but we're not talking deviant practices here! :D
Actually, I've done some of that DSLR too. Feels good once in a while, don't it? ;)
Peter Klein
12-30-2005, 08:34
I have a film SLR, an Olympus OM-2, but I almost never use it. I "cheat" with an Olympus E-1 DSLR. And sometimes I even put the old OM lenses on it. Is that transgenerational cheating? ;)
I generally much prefer rangefinder focusing to SLR focusing. But sometimes autofocus and the convenience of digital are the way to go, especially when time is short.
I suspect there is a digital RF in my future. That way I can "cheat" without being completely unfaithful. :D
--Peter
ChrisPlatt
12-30-2005, 11:43
I would never be without a classic Pentax mechanical SLR.
Keep Chris in Christmas
-Chris-
Bottom line: we're photographers, and we use cameras. Sometimes RF, sometimes SLR, sometimes TLR, sometimes even digital ... The only time we cheat ourselves is when we don't carry a camera :D
Gene
Oh yea. Canon 300d and Leica R8. Love the 300d and the R glass with adapter. I got the R8 with 7 Leica lenses, 2x conv, angle finder and bellows off a guy last year for $1500. The great thing is all parties were happy with the deal. ;)
I cheat with folders, box cameras, pin holes. home-mades. I'm just camera promiscous.
In 35mm format, I only shoot rangefinders. I own three SLRs, two of which will be sold very soon (Canon EOS bodies). The other SLR was my first camera (Minolta XG-1), and it holds too much sentimental value for me to sell.
When it comes to medium format... anything goes. I shoot with Holgas, Dianas, and other toy cameras every now and then. I'm looking into getting a TLR. I've done some pinhole work, and I'm planning on building a pinhole camera that will use 120 roll film. I'd also like to get a Hasselblad 500cm body. I do have an Iksra on its way, so I'll be able to shoot with rangefinders in both 35mm and MF :)
I guess, it is OK to use several systems for photography. I invested too much into non-autofocus 35mm SLR cameras and lenses, and then I "saw the light", as they say, and I started building up my rangefinder system. Each has its charm. For example, I like the Vivitar 90mm-180mm flatfield macro zoom. Such a lens is unavailable in a RF.
For those who ahve a penchant for all types of cameras, be it rangefinder, SLR, TLR or any of the MF types, there is a forum for you. I am a member, as are a few of the other members here.
http://cameracollector.proboards30.com/index.cgi?
It is a friendly place that dees a small but constant flow of members.
Hope to see some of you over there.
As for cheating, I could be what you call a philanderer. If Hugh Hefner were a photographer he would be me. I sometimes go out with as many as 7 cameras when I go on a shooting spree. But I do try to carry at least 1 rangefinder when I go out. I have been carying one to work every day talely, either my Zorki-4 or my Kiev IIIa.
Heath
tedwhite
12-30-2005, 20:18
I'm a Pentax Spotmatic slut. Worse, I just bought a Bessaflex TM for all my Super Takumar lenses to mate with. (But when I ride my mountain bike in the desert my constant companion is my Oly XA stuffed in a pocket).
I'm a Pentax Spotmatic slut. Worse, I just bought a Bessaflex TM for all my Super Takumar lenses to mate with. (But when I ride my mountain bike in the desert my constant companion is my Oly XA stuffed in a pocket).
Ted: Could you tell me more about your Bessaflex camera. Is it new and how much does it cost?
Frank Granovski
12-30-2005, 21:15
I only cheat when I feel the need to use my not-so-sharp 135mm on the street. So I have to use the Nic' SLR. I have a love-hate relationship with this lens but soon it will be banished to the closet, that is when I get my 105mm from FrankS and I get my R3A from Stephen for the 90mm M. I can't stand the G2's 90mm..., just the 45mm. :cool:
Bertram2
12-31-2005, 01:53
Ted: Could you tell me more about your Bessaflex camera. Is it new and how much does it cost?
Raid,
Stephen Gandy/cameraquest.com provides detailed information. I don't know who in RFF uses it but my friend Roger Williams at CVUG uses this camera exclusively since quite a while, you can contact him at usefilm.com, where he has posted a bunch of pics shot with M42 lenses.
Don't forget Bessaflex means metering stopped down, so if you own nice old M42 lenses and want to use it this camera is fine, otherwise there is no good reason
IMO to buy it.. IMHO at least.
bertram
back alley
12-31-2005, 05:02
raid
do a search here, i think bill m did a bit of a review of his.
joe
tedwhite
12-31-2005, 06:17
Bertram is right, Raid. It's designed for use with lenses with the stop-down capability (little pin sticking out of back of lens). Super Takumar and SMC Takumar and Fuji lenses, etc. all in M42.
It's a well built camera with an easy-to-see LED meter lights when stopped down. My eyes are not as good as they were, so it is difficult for me to see the match needle system in the Spotmatic bodies. This, and the ability to use my drawer full of Takumar lenses, made it a very worthwhile buy for me. You can read about it and see lots of pics at Gandy's CameraQuest site.
Ted
Raid,
Stephen Gandy/cameraquest.com provides detailed information. I don't know who in RFF uses it but my friend Roger Williams at CVUG uses this camera exclusively since quite a while, you can contact him at usefilm.com, where he has posted a bunch of pics shot with M42 lenses.
Don't forget Bessaflex means metering stopped down, so if you own nice old M42 lenses and want to use it this camera is fine, otherwise there is no good reason
IMO to buy it.. IMHO at least.
bertram
Betram,
I have several good lenses in M42 for my old Pentax Spotmatic F. Among them are SMC lenses like 35mm, 50mm/1.4, 85mm/1.8. I have used the 85mm lens on Canon FD bodies in the past, with an adapter and stopped down, and the results were very nice. Cost plays a role here. I can't just keep on adding more and more camera bodies unless justified somehow. I will check out usefil.com. Thanks.
Raid
Raid, I think your Pentax Spotmatic F is a better camera than the Bessaflex, whose only advantages are being brand new, perhaps brighter viewfinder, and ability to take the Bessa trigger winder. Your F has a great advantage in allowing open-aperture metering with the SMC lenses. Bessaflex is like the old Spotmatics in metering only stopped down.
back alley
12-31-2005, 13:16
Betram,
I have several good lenses in M42 for my old Pentax Spotmatic F. Among them are SMC lenses like 35mm, 50mm/1.4, 85mm/1.8. I have used the 85mm lens on Canon FD bodies in the past, with an adapter and stopped down, and the results were very nice. Cost plays a role here. I can't just keep on adding more and more camera bodies unless justified somehow. I will check out usefil.com. Thanks.
Raid
gee raid, i really would like to help you here...maybe it's time to sell that ol' canon 6l...yeah, i might be interested...do you do lay away?
;)joe
terrafirmanada
12-31-2005, 14:43
Well I am a fairly new rangefinder user, but when I had the CLA on my M3 a few months ago I used the Canon F1 along with the fixed lens rfs while the work was being done. It was nice to have the meter in the system, but I felt removed in an odd sort of way. Now that I am reunited with the Leica, I think I know what that feeling of removal came from.
I am a very active - involved- person. I also have a short span of attention. That being said; if I have to figure out lighting, framing, film speed et cetra, I feel more involved in a process. I like to be at one with what I do, even if my visible product might not be as good as a photo I might have taken with the F1. I LIKE THE STRUGGLE. One day I hope to capture my best, most artistic impressions with a rf.
As some of my posts have noted, I use a Pentax istDS2 when my R-D1 decides it is too cold outside. Using a rangefinder has reinforced my desire to use only primes (except in special situations like a safari), and many of the Pentax lenses are superb. I only post rf pictures in my gallery, but will attach the occasional Pentax pic to a message.
Happy new year!
Kirk
gee raid, i really would like to help you here...maybe it's time to sell that ol' canon 6l...yeah, i might be interested...do you do lay away?
;)joe
Oh well, Joe, if you only knew what goodies I have when it comes to cameras and lenses. My Canon VI-L may be up for sale one day if the price is right. It is very clean and operates like new. Start saving .... :D
"The moment you cheat for the sake of beauty, you know you're an artist." - Max Jacob
;)
I like that quote, Andy! :D
Bertram2
01-01-2006, 04:15
Betram,
I have several good lenses in M42 for my old Pentax Spotmatic F. Among them are SMC lenses like 35mm, 50mm/1.4, 85mm/1.8.
Raid
You got the right camera already I'd say. And if the old Spotmatic F gives up one day then better look for another one in mint condition.
I once tried an old Praktica with stopped down metering and I said to myself "never ever again !!". And I think stopped down metering was one of the worst probs of SLR technology in the early years which let many photogs stay with RF, worse than weight and size.
In those days the screens were really dark and it could come to a point where you got simply blind (f16, indoor, flash), impossible to focus anything properly.
Even if the modern screens are really bright, it slows you down anyway.
bertram
Bertram: Where in Germany do you live? I looked at one of your photos taken from the window of your room. This could be Bavaria or is it the Hamburg/Bremen area?
I am the opposite... I was raised on SLRs, and despite the fact of owning and using several RFs, I still "see" better with an SLR.
I love the "quiet" of a RF (e.g. M3), as well as the fact that they don't look like a serious camera to the average layman, so they make me much less intrusive. I also love how sharp the 45 Planar is on my Contax... as someone said, so sharp it hurts.
But try as I will I can still focus faster with a split circle in my FE2 than the patch in a M3, and I still compose better looking at the 100% viewfinder of a F3HP than the frame lines in a Leica, despite forced usage and practice with the RFs.
So I struggle with what I want to do, versus what I know I do, well... :) Is that cheating, or torture? :)
It is "being practical". I do the same. Isn't it great that we are in a position to choose between such great camera systems.
I was shooting with my Yashica Mat 124 today. I never thought about it before but with TLR's your not viewing thru the 'taking lens', but it's not an RF. So what are they?
nwcanonman
01-01-2006, 22:11
I was shooting with my Yashica Mat 124 today. I never thought about it before but with TLR's your not viewing thru the 'taking lens', but it's not an RF. So what are they?
.................
Jim,
Remember, the "TL" in TLR stands for "Twin Lens". One, of the twins, is the "Viewing" lens on top, that you are viewing through when focusing and other twin is the "Taking" lens on the bottom that passes the light/image to the film. They are focused together. :)
Does that help?
So is there a designation based on the twin lens system as RF or SLR that describes them other then TLR? Maybe TLR is describtion enough. Anyway their not range finders so I was still cheatin' (as Raid described it).
nwcanonman
01-01-2006, 22:57
JIm,
Yep, it's called just TLR and it's not a Rangefinder. So you too are a CHEATER!
LOL.
Bertram2
01-02-2006, 02:58
Bertram: Where in Germany do you live? I looked at one of your photos taken from the window of your room. This could be Bavaria or is it the Hamburg/Bremen area?
No, it's the Rhein-Neckar area, south-west of Heidelberg. Outta my window you look to the east of the Rhein plane, towards the " Bergstrasse" at the bottom of the "Odenwald". If you ever have been here you should be orientated now ? ;)
bertram
tedwhite
01-02-2006, 06:40
Bertram 2: I visited usefilm.com but couldn't find any mention of Roger Williams. Got any suggestions?
Ted
Bertram2
01-02-2006, 07:40
Bertram 2: I visited usefilm.com but couldn't find any mention of Roger Williams. Got any suggestions?
Ted
Only this one:
Roger Williams (http://www.usefilm.com/Image.asp?ID=1019929)
Should work.
I like the idea of a cheaters section on this forum. :)
every time I mention SLR here, I get guilty feelings.
No, it's the Rhein-Neckar area, south-west of Heidelberg. Outta my window you look to the east of the Rhein plane, towards the " Bergstrasse" at the bottom of the "Odenwald". If you ever have been here you should be orientated now ? ;)
bertram
Bertram: I grew up as a child in Bonn, but have been more often back to Bayern. I certainly have bene to heidelberg and have driven a lot around that area.
tedwhite
01-02-2006, 16:38
Thanks, Bertram. Very nice images. I notice he's using cv lenses, 20mm & 40mm. Those are not cheap. I just shot my first roll with the Bessaflex, using Super Takumar lenses, lenses I've had for a long time (you could say they're amortized); however the glass is superb and they can still be found on ebay at reasonable prices.
Another cheater camera I've got is the Yashica T4 Super. The regularly placed viewfinder plus the one on the top of the camera make it the perfect stealth camera.
Ted
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