View Full Version : What's coming on Dec 21?
Yet another teaser from Zeiss: http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9?Open
Shipment begins for the black version of the Zeiss Ikon and/or the 15mm Distagon? Announcement of the digital version? Revival of the Contax marque?
Frank Granovski
12-18-2005, 02:06
First day of Winter? The longest night? Zeiss's birthday?
A new partnership? A new camera? Zeiss is buying out Leica? Buying out Cosina?
Now I won't be able to function until Dec 21st; and I know my life will be changed forever. :)
If I may guess, I think it's a digital back for contax SLR's !!!!!!!! maybe maybe
bobofish
12-18-2005, 02:56
Holy Cow does that get my blood stirring....
Not that I will have money for whatever they do create, but hey, what's one more thing to lust after, in the grand scheme of things? :D
Hm...SLR photographers. Well, that's clearly not a Zeiss Ikon rangefinder.
Digital Back? Well, that's simply not a new dimension, it's been done. But perhaps they can do it better?
Perhaps the very words of the little blurb are a hint...."New Dimension" for "Millions."
....perhaps Zeiss has entered into an agreement with Canon or Nikon? I mean, Contax was never really owned by "millions" of people, so it would be a touch foolish to say that about a new Contax.
This is exiting news indeed! I for one am hoping that at the very least Zeiss will pull it through this make or break age.
I still wonder why Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock, Leica and Hasselblad couldn't have seen the future for what it is, and joined together and pooled resources to come out with a comprehensive line that would be world-class and world-competitive.
Perhaps this will be the beginning of such a venture? I mean Hassy's in trouble, Leica's in trouble, and all those companies are competing against each other in an era of diminishing returns...maybe they've seen the light.
By golly that's exiting.
Zeiss lenses in all current SLR mounts ?
A universall back wich you can couple with diffrent brands SLR's with different adaptors ?
A universall back wich you can couple with diffrent brands SLR's with different adaptors ?
maybe yet little further - a digital film cassette you can load to any slr out there. that would surprise milions of users.
...there were such trials in the past, but none was successful so far.
Zeiss lenses in all current SLR mounts ?
Oh god I hope so! *wets pants*
darkkavenger
12-18-2005, 04:57
ohmygod *faints*
If they come with a digital back it would be easier to blow in new futere for the beautifull Contax slr line. And with that, the Ziess MM mount (CONTAX) lens line up. So that could be logical.
But a digital back for which camera? They no longer have their own SLR, and they wouldn't introduce a back for an out-of-production model. Rather, it must sureyl be a range of SLR lenses. As Cosina produce lenses for Nikon, wouldn't surprise me if Zeiss were to do the same.
ZeissFan
12-18-2005, 06:46
I would say that Zeiss does a much better job of building anticipation toward the announcement of a product than Canon and Nikon - where so-called accidental leaks of information spoil most of the fun.
oh god I hope they come out with a lens I can shove in front of my canon slr's.....
and I wsh leica would do that too.....
"Millions of SLR photographers will discover a new dimension in photography..."
...sounds like CZ lenses in SLR mounts to me.
Wouldn't be all that tough to manage, either. If they brought out just Canon EOS and Nikon mounts, they'd cover the vast majority of DSLR users willing to pay Zeiss prices for lenses.
"The Distagon T* 2.8/15 ZM is scheduled for start of deliveries in October 2005 and the Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM is supposed to follow at the end of 2005."
Pulled from Zeiss's website. Hm....I dont think this is it though.
"However, the contract between Carl Zeiss and Kyocera concerning the exclusive use of the CONTAX brand name by Kyocera still exists. Since this existing contract is supposed to be in effect for several more years, Carl Zeiss cannot give any statements on future development, at present."
Also this little tidbit, but I still hope they end up making other slr mount lenses...
XXXGRAPENUTSXXX
12-18-2005, 07:25
Maybe The Contax Line and the G system are coming back
Gabriel M.A.
12-18-2005, 08:42
I think Wednesday is coming on December 21. And maybe, just maybe, some Christmas cards?
oh god I hope they come out with a lens I can shove in front of my canon slr's.....and I wsh leica would do that too.....
They already do - you just need to buy the adapters.
"New dimension", hmmm....I still think something in the ZI line is most likely. The RF camera allows continuous view even at the time (4th dimension) of exposure which no SLR can offer (without a pellicle mirror.) When you consider Leica's anticipated introduction of the digital M in (Photokina?) 2006, this Wednesday for the digital ZI's announcement wouldn't be that surprising.
Or they may simply mean the 15mm Distagon (with floating elements) opens up a "new dimension" for millions of photogs who haven't used such a super wideangle. Yeah I know this would be an anticlimax...
Uncle Bill
12-18-2005, 17:30
We won't know until the 21'st. I am thinking really big things here. A full camera line? A buyout? Or, a real curve ball that will blow all of us away.
Bill
wlewisiii
12-18-2005, 17:36
All the new lenses in original Contax mount? :angel: Though to be honest, EOS would be nice too.
William
ZeissFan
12-18-2005, 17:44
I suspect it will be a new SLR system, probably manufactured under license by Cosina.
Or it will be Carl Zeiss lenses available in the popular Japanese SLR mounts, also manufactured under license by Cosina. That would mean goodbye crappy kit lens (not that I own one).
Well, we'll know in three days.
They already do - you just need to buy the adapters.
yeah, but those adapter kinda suck, I never really careed for using them
Interchangeable-lens camera-phone from Nokia with Contax/Yashica mount.
darkkavenger
12-19-2005, 02:05
a rangefinder system that goes on top of SLR systems and allows the mounting of their new lens : Carl Zeiss T* Vario-Hologon 1.5/10 ASPH
If they're smart enough, that would be some Zeiss glass come with major Japanese mounts, be it EOS or F. Anything else is pure waste of time and energy.
If they're smart enough, that would be some Zeiss glass come with major Japanese mounts
This was my first guess when I saw the teaser. It would really open up a lot of market to Zeiss.
Peter
phototone
12-19-2005, 11:19
It says "Millions of SLR photographers will discover a new dimension....."
My speculation is that whatever it is, it is for "SLR" photographers., which means either a new series of lenses for SLR's, or a new SLR system (camera and lenses). It may not even be for 35mm, as Zeiss makes the lenses for some of the Hassy 120 size SLR's. You need to take that into consideration. Perhaps a new line of digital back optimized lenses for Hassy bodies.
It may not even be for 35mm,
I guess it depends on how much glass they're geared up to sell. Who knows, Sony could be releasing a dSLR.
Peter
beethamd
12-19-2005, 11:51
Cosina already make C/Y mount lenses so I think perhaps that Cosina would now be able to offer Zeiss branded C/Y lenses in addition to other Zeiss branded SLR lenses. This is all very interesting.
Apparently the Ai-S and M42 versions are the only Voigtlander SL lenses in series production. http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/voigt/v-lens/sl/zaiko/index.html
Besides, Zeiss admits Kyocera still has the exclusive rights to the Contax license for another several years, so I don't think Cosina will make Zeiss lenses for the C/Y mount even though the lenses themselves don't say "Contax."
The Sony dSLR is a possibility, but there are no corrseponding teasers or announcements on the Japanese Sony site (or Hasselblad site for that matter.)
anselwannab
12-19-2005, 14:56
Leverage the Ikon body and make it into an SLR, just like they did for the early SLRs? At the same time announce that the upcoming digital camera is going to be a back that can go on the Ikon or the SLRikon???(Outside chance)
I wonder what kind of contract Cosina has with Epson for the RD1. If there is a non-compete, maybe Zeiss can come out with a digital Manual Focus SLR based on the Ikon first. (Way outside chance.)
Probably wide lenses for EOS, but MF. (Where I'd put my money.)
It would be interesting to do an experiment where people who post on these speculative discussions are tested to see if they can understand when a question is rhetorical.
Kyocera may have the license for a few years, but arrangements can be made to terminate such a license. I'm not speculating per se, just pointing out that such things are done in business all the time. Money is money.
Earl
Kyocera may have the license for a few years, but arrangements can be made to terminate such a license. I'm not speculating per se, just pointing out that such things are done in business all the time. Money is money.
That's exactly what I expected Zeiss to do some months ago, shortly after Kyocera's pull-out. I even speculated that the digital version of the Zeiss Ikon might revive the Contax name. But in light of this statement issued as late as Sept, that won't be happening anytime soon. http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/ContentsWWWIntern/6DDDFEBAA94C63B6C12570740040C246
That's exactly what I expected Zeiss to do some months ago, shortly after Kyocera's pull-out. I even speculated that the digital version of the Zeiss Ikon might revive the Contax name. But in light of this statement issued as late as Sept, that won't be happening anytime soon. http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/ContentsWWWIntern/6DDDFEBAA94C63B6C12570740040C246
I don't view that statement as definitive beyond today... since it hasn't been updated today. All they are saying is that they can't say anything more about the Contax brand ... until they say something new about it.
Earl
waterlenz
12-19-2005, 16:51
What is the object at the left edge of the frame on the CZ webpage refered to above?
Tom
Okay, I'll rephrase what I've said: I don't believe they'll "say anything new about it" anytime soon, and certainly not this Wednesday which is, after all, what the teaser's about. :p
I also expect Zeiss to drop a little hint if they have any plans about the future of Contax. For example, the ZM lenses being designed "with digital application in mind" is taken by most people to be a hint about a digital RF.
And don't forget even the Zeiss Ikon took more than 1 year from announcement to delivery.
What is the object at the left edge of the frame on the CZ webpage refered to above?
Tom
Looks like either a mobile phone or PDA to me.
Mazurka: FWIW, I agree with you; I don't really think the announcement on the 21st will be about Contax either. But Zeiss is capable of surprising, so I don't think it could be ruled out 100%.
Earl
bobofish
12-19-2005, 17:30
Now I'm dissappointed...it looks like that little thingy on the left of the announcement picture is something from the N Series Nokia phones.
http://www.nokia.com/nseries/index.html?prod=N90&lang=de&country=DE
I hope that's not what it is...because as we all know, as cool as a phone with a camera could be, a cool camera with bitchin lenses is better.
I've been thinking about how since Contax is gone and Hasselblad has all but stopped production on their 6x6 cameras (the new autofocus ones take Fuji lenses, most people know) and Rollei is not really a thriving concern, Zeiss would be looking for other, somewhat more guaranteed platforms to put their lenses on.
It occured to me that the Zeiss Ikon might simply be an experiment to see what they could do with producing new platforms for their lenses...I don't think anybody really labors under the illusion that a rangefinder, even a digital, could make or break a company in this day and age.
Of course we can still hold out hope, and even if Wednesday's announcement isn't what we all hope it is, maybe it's a sign that they are indeed working things through, maybe next year some great things will come out.
A full-frame alternative to Canon is certainly something a lot of people would go for. Nominally speaking, in these days of mergers and alliances, perhaps Sony could convince their nominal partner Nikon to produce a platform for Zeiss lenses branded as Sony cameras...who knows.
Then there's always the possibility (now I'm dreaming a bit) of a camera using Sony's sensors, KonicaMinolta's Autofocus expertise, and Zeiss glass.
We'll have to wait and see! Either way, we are the humble hamsters of Zeiss's marketing buzz...we are buzzing away.
Frank Granovski
12-19-2005, 17:45
Maybe Zeiss bought Nikon? Then all Nikon cameras will be called Zeiss-Nikon. Could be.
Bobofish: Well, the announcement has to do with SLR users. I don't think we'll see a Nokia SLR phone any time soon.
You make some good points; it would make sense to produce Zeiss lenses for the EOS mount. Zeiss has stated they believe digital cameras need a full frame sensor.
OT, but have we seen many shots made by ZM lenses on the R-D1? Is there a thread on that?
Earl
Out with a new brand named......Nikontax?
ZeissFan
12-19-2005, 18:04
If one of the Japanese companies was involved, it probably would have leaked by now. They don't know how to keep a secret.
Maybe Zeiss bought Nikon? Then all Nikon cameras will be called Zeiss-Nikon. Could be.
haha...that was clever
They say "More on Wednesday, December 21"... Maybe it will be just the next teaser??? Didn't they do the same when announcing the Zeiss Ikon and its lenses?
Cheers
Thomas-Michael
dffman2001
12-19-2005, 20:54
Pictures are leaked! Nikon it is!
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF06gross/$File/06_gross.jpg http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF05gross/$File/05_gross.jpg http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF04gross/$File/04_gross.jpg http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF03gross/$File/03_gross.jpg http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF02gross/$File/02_gross.jpg
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF01gross/ $File/01_gross.jpg
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF06gross/$File/06_gross.jpg
RObert Budding
12-19-2005, 23:15
F-mount Zeiss lenses! Yahoo!! This is fantastic news!
FYI - Zeisss has removed the pics from their site.
Robert
Wow, it's the best thing that happened to the Nikon system since Ai! Thanks dffman!
And that's my first SLR (which I still have) in the pic - the Nikon FM. Very heart-warming. Hope I can finally get a real 85mm f/2 Zeiss lens, the Jupiter 9 I've ordered notwithstanding. Perhaps another reason to hold off getting the Zeiss Ikon :angel:
"Zeiss brings ZF" - do they have the transaxle company's approval? :p
I wonder who will make the lenses? Oberkochen or Cosina?
Frank Granovski
12-19-2005, 23:48
:bang: I have 6 Nikon F mount lenses for sale. Anyone interested? :D
PS: :bang:
f$%& I was hoping for canon mount lenses......damnation, hm....maybe its time to get an FM3...
RObert Budding
12-19-2005, 23:50
I'm wrong - the images are still there.
Robert
RObert Budding
12-19-2005, 23:54
I've always liked Nikon bodies. And my first "real" camera was a Nikon FE2. But it is funny that the company that copied the Zeiss Ikon is now "hosting" the real deal.
Robert
Remember when Zeiss Ikon sued Nippon Kogaku in the 1960s over the Nikon brand so the Japanese had to re-brand their products "Nikkor" for the German market? Somewhat ironic isn't it? ;)
bobofish
12-20-2005, 00:02
And didn't Nikon sue Ikon a couple decades back, because they thought Ikon's name infringed on their own, copied name?
But that notwithstanding,
WOOHOO!
I think that's magnificent news. Rather than bringing out another possibly damned to failure body, they're going for a very proven and stable system.
I have to admit, while I am somewhat sorry that the lenses won't be available for EOS (Until recently I was something of a Canon guy) but I'm growing to really like the Nikon system, especially the easy integration of mf lenses.
Although as we all know, with an adapter, these will be useable with EOS as well, and with some tinkering, possibly with all electronics talkedy talking.
But it is funny that the company that copied the Zeiss Ikon is now "hosting" the real deal.
Not only did Nippon Kogaku copy Zeiss products, they were also formed by merging several optical companies, just like Zeiss Ikon was a merger of camera companies. Even to this very day both are very diversified in the optical industry with a large range of products like scientific instruments (microscopes, opthalmologic equipment, etc), cine lenses, telescopes and binoculars...the list goes on and on. They are also among the handful of companies who have their own glassworks (Schott in Zeiss' case.)
bobofish
12-20-2005, 00:09
And it just occurred to me...
May the Leica executives that are running that company into the ground contract anal herpes, and grow dozens of leprose appendages! May their wives shun them, and their dogs find other masters!
All those people who said that Nikon wouldn't go for a deal with Leica....well here's a deal with Zeiss!
Although knock on wood, maybe this will get Canon to make a long distance phone call to Leica......or even more hypothetically, maybe this Zeiss maneuver is a result of industrial espionage, trying to beat a Leica/Canon alliance? Muhahahaha.
Although any such alliance, knowing Leica's lightning fast reflexes when it comes to new technology, could probablly be developed by interns and still come out faster.
Nikon fans beware - this may mean manual-focus Nikkors and the FM3A will no longer be made. :eek:
bobofish
12-20-2005, 00:15
Mazurka,
I've always heard that Schott is Zeiss's thing, but in what sense...does Zeiss actually own Schott, or do they just have an exclusive agreement?
A couple years ago, I took a glass-blowing class, and we got a lot of Schott glass donated to us by the company...it was cheaper for them to ship it to us, as much as we could possibly use, then it would have been for them to run the rods back through the machines and redo.
It was mostly tubes and rods that they sent us, and the average that they were "off" was about 1mm....still, the explanation we got was that several hundred rods run through the machine every minute, and to actually take the time to remelt, and rerun would be prohibitive...as such the pure optical glass was useless to them.
The first thing I made with a Schott tube was a little head of Homer Simpson...it would be neat to think that he is now made of the stuff that dreams are made of, namely Zeiss lens glass!
damnation, I hope they also come out with canon mounts...I refuse to use those damn adapter things
Mazurka,
I've always heard that Schott is Zeiss's thing, but in what sense...does Zeiss actually own Schott, or do they just have an exclusive agreement?
Bobo, Schott has always been a Zeiss company IIRC.
damnation, I hope they also come out with canon mounts...I refuse to use those damn adapter things
Just get a working FM2/FE2/FM3A. You won' t regret it.
bobofish
12-20-2005, 00:36
Or for that matter an FG...
I found one in perfect condition with a 50 1.8 for $25 at an antique shop. AND they are the smallest Nikon, more or less, AND they have TTL.
Goodness me. Zeiss lenses....This could be really really cool.
Kim Coxon
12-20-2005, 01:04
Less than 24 hours and all the speculation will be over! ;)
Kim
Less than 24 hours and all the speculation will be over! ;)
Kim
speculation? Its already on the zeiss site
darkkavenger
12-20-2005, 01:58
How so it's already there ?? I've seen the leakage pics only :)
Are they going to go for MF lenses or AF lenses? From the pics showing a FM, I'd suppose that producing MF lenses is the easiest way for Zeiss, probably just new lens housings for the Contax line.
Frank Granovski
12-20-2005, 02:00
Less than 24 hours and all the speculation will be over!speculation? Its already on the zeiss siteI have 6 Nikon F mount lenses for sale. Anyone interested?I wonder if these Zeiss F's will be priced nice. Cosina making 'em?
They'll be priced for quality-minded amateurs and professionals. Hence, unlikely cheaper than current Zeiss-CV offerings.
Frank Granovski
12-20-2005, 03:44
That could mean priced Leica'ly?
Use EURO's in Belarus?
bobofish
12-20-2005, 03:51
I imagine just like the ZI offerings, some will be priced somewhat competitively, like the Cosina made lenses, and some will be made by Zeiss, and priced stratospherically.
Doubtless however is that they will probablly sell a lot of lenses, because the Zeiss name stands for something just about everybody with more than a couple brain cells can agree about.
I'm curious as to what the ratio of rock star lenses to more humble lenses will be.
After all, the Nikkor lenses are no slouches, and there seem to be plenty of price points to choose from...the Zeiss lenses will have to be compelling offerings indeed, because I doubt they will be able to compete in price with Nikkors.
Consequently, I'd be willing to bet that most of the lenses will be rock stars, also since Zeiss will want to make a big big statement.
Is this the first time that Zeiss has offered lenses in a "competing" mount? I mean a camera mount that already has proprietary lenses offered... I'm no expert, but I can't think of an example. (well, except for the occasional red herring in the Leica or Alpa lines...)
RObert Budding
12-20-2005, 04:03
I'm curious as to what the ratio of rock star lenses to more humble lenses will be. After all, the Nikkor lenses are no slouches, and there seem to be plenty of price points to choose from...the Zeiss lenses will have to be compelling offerings indeed, because I doubt they will be able to compete in price with Nikkors.
Nikon does make some bad "consumer-grade" lenses. Their good glass, though, is quite good. But I expect that Zeiss will only make premium lenses. And surely, they will be less expensive tha Leica glass.
Robert
Pictures are leaked! Nikon it is!
Perfect timing on my acquisition of a Nikon F3 HP ...
Gene
Frank Granovski
12-20-2005, 04:36
:angel: Finally after years of cr_ppy Nikon F lenses, Zeiss has come to the rescue! I can't wait to see their line-up! :cool:
That could mean priced Leica'ly?
Use EURO's in Belarus?
Well, current ZI offerings look less expensive than those of Leica. They have to compete. But Zeiss is generally not known for budget products.
And no Euros here: we're not in EU, let alone Eurozone :)
anselwannab
12-20-2005, 04:50
Does the inclusion of the Nikon bodies mean that there is some agreement between the two companies? If Zeiss where doing it without Nikon's approval, would they be able to use their cameras in the ads?
There are F to EOS adaptors, right?
An EOS line of products seems to make more sense. Although, with Canon having a pretty full line of products, I would think you would want to slot any new uber lenses above the L offerings, and then you are in Leica price territory.
I agree, if there is an agreement between Zeiss and Nikon, I would think Nikon might stop making MF F mount lenses.
Robin Harrison
12-20-2005, 04:58
With the Nikon deal, Zeiss have another huge market for their lenses. Is nobody else a bit disappointed what this means for the Contax brand? I know they were dead anyway, but there was always the hope that whilst there was Zeiss glass, there was a need for a Zeiss-mount body (ultimate goal: full frame digital C/Y mount manual focus SLR, branded by whoever). Now Zeiss have opened up lens sales to two large, huge, massive groups of users (Leica AND Nikon), I very much doubt they'll be looking for a partner for the manual focus SLR lenses.
Oh well. Back to rangefinders!
looks lik ethe pictures from Zeiss are gone. Did anyone save them to their computer?
An EOS line of products seems to make more sense. Although, with Canon having a pretty full line of products, I would think you would want to slot any new uber lenses above the L offerings, and then you are in Leica price territory.
Compared to an 400/2.8 APO-Telyt Canons EF-400/2.8L is a bargain :-)
BTW, could anybody here imagin buying a lens with a closest focusing distance of 17 METERS ?
Compared to an 400/2.8 APO-Telyt Canons EF-400/2.8L is a bargain :-)
BTW, could anybody here imagin buying a lens with a closest focusing distance of 17 METERS ?
could if I was gona use it to shoot photos for magazine articles with titles like "alien coffee table set"
bobofish
12-20-2005, 07:37
Jorge,
This image courtesy of some guy named Sang Kyu on P.net
Wouldn't it be fun if Zeiss introduced a partnered (Cosina?) SLR with F mount to go with the new lenses? (Pure fantasy on my part -- haven't seen this rumoured)
Gene
They have to rise CONTAX again !!! (They probably will over a few years)
bobofish
12-20-2005, 07:58
I don't know how soon Contax will return....
Unfortunately as we all know, film bodies are not the most profitable thing to invest in these days, Contax or not.
They would probablly have to develop the whole line, because from what I've read, basically everything but the lenses, and even then..was developed buy Kyocera.
As such, they would have to recoup the costs, or sell at a loss of the development costs. These days, there's just not enough pure film demand. Partnering with Nikon is an excellent move. (or at least providing lenses for F-mount)
Eventually somebody will come out with a full frame sensor line, or at least a very good sensor line that is independant of Canon, Nikon, etc. When that happens, and it could be relatively soon, I think we will see Contax reborn not long after.
It's also possible that Kyocera has decided to clutch their knuckles onto the remaining years of their contract, simply out of spite. It's certainly not the honorable thing to do, but as we know many companies in this world do not function on principles of honor. Zeiss would have no choice in that case, and would simply have to bite the bullet and find another way. Which brings me back to why they won't be bringing out a new Contax until they can sell digi digi digi.
wlewisiii
12-20-2005, 07:59
Hrmf. Looks like I'll need to get a F-EOS adaptor when I buy that EOS-5 body I'm planning on getting sometime.
William
Perfect timing on my acquisition of a Nikon F3 HP ...
Gene
To that point you may want to check out eBay. Last night there were a number of F3's at very reasonable BINs (under $200 for at least two of them) being offered by a well-known and reputable e-tailer. Looked like he was "clearing out" a lot of Nikon inventory.
Won't mention who seller is here but send PM if you want that info.
I was tempted myself to get one as a "spare" but fought off the GAS pains. :D
To that point you may want to check out eBay. Last night there were a number of F3's at very reasonable BINs (under $200 for at least two of them) being offered by a well-known and reputable e-tailer. Looked like he was "clearing out" a lot of Nikon inventory.
Won't mention who seller is here but send PM if you want that info.
I was tempted myself to get one as a "spare" but fought off the GAS pains. :D
Thanks, but my F3HP arrived last week and, for now, I'll be content with one body. Gotta save some GAS for 2006 :D
Gene
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 08:52
I still have my tried-and-true F2A plus my FE from 1980. I replaced light seals on both last year, and aside from that, they're in great shape.
Regarding the EOS mount, I don't know what licensing is involved, and it seems that the problems people experience with third party lenses and the need to re-chip, etc., make it not worth the bother.
A Pentax K mount also would be a simple thing to do. Pure manual mount with none of electronic connections to confound things.
I suppose that once the agreement with Kyocera expires, perhaps we'll see another Contax camera, but whether it continues with the mount is unknown. I would think it could be a legal issue and not a mechanical one.
Edit: After giving this some more thought, I would like to say that I suppose you could do a manual-focus EOS mount. That might confuse some Canon users, who expect all lenses to be autofocus. Does Canon make any manual focus-only lenses?
RJBender
12-20-2005, 09:30
Well, it will be Wednesday in Germany in less than 5 hours.
There was some speculation on DP review (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0512/05122001zeisslenses.asp) that Zeiss might have some new lenses for Nikons. Could this be payback (http://www.dragonsgate.net/mbell/leica/thievery.htm) time?
It wouldn't surprise me if Cosina was making Zeiss branded lenses in Nikon F mount. I wonder when the patent expires for Nikon's F mount? :confused:
R.J.
Cosina makes AI-S compatible lenses for some time now. Some pretty intersting stuff under the Voigtlaender brand like the 40/2 pancake, probably a Tessar design.
I think Zeiss doesn't want their lenses to be mounted on a FF Canon natively. As we could see from their statements about a digital ZI rangefinder they don't think digital is good enough for their lenses, yet. So they probably don't want a lens showing issues with a Canon 5D or Canon 1Ds body and choose a mount where , nearly, no 24x36 sensor is available.
I'm waiting for reports from Kodak DCS Pro 14/n users, I know one who'll jump on a 85 Planar to mount on his Kodak :-)
RJBender
12-20-2005, 09:45
Wouldn't it be fun if Zeiss introduced a partnered (Cosina?) SLR with F mount to go with the new lenses? (Pure fantasy on my part -- haven't seen this rumoured)
Gene
Cosina makes camera bodies for Olympus, Canon and Nikon. I think they made the Nikon FE-10, FM-10, Canon T-60 and Olympus OM2000.
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonfmseries/fm10/
R.J.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 09:50
Cosina makes AI-S compatible lenses for some time now. Some pretty intersting stuff under the Voigtlaender brand like the 40/2 pancake, probably a Tessar design.
I think Zeiss doesn't want their lenses to be mounted on a FF Canon natively. As we could see from their statements about a digital ZI rangefinder they don't think digital is good enough for their lenses, yet. So they probably don't want a lens showing issues with a Canon 5D or Canon 1Ds body and choose a mount where , nearly, no 24x36 sensor is available.
I'm waiting for reports from Kodak DCS Pro 14/n users, I know one who'll jump on a 85 Planar to mount on his Kodak :-)
Volker,
Before Cosina started making cameras with the Voigtlander name, wasn't the Voigtlander name used on key rings and other small products in Germany? I'm thinking that this was probably 10 or 15 years ago?
R.J.
Does Canon make any manual focus-only lenses?
They make three tilt/shift lenses that are manual focus only.
Volker,
Before Cosina started making cameras with the Voigtlander name, wasn't the Voigtlander name used on key rings and other small products in Germany? I'm thinking that this was probably 10 or 15 years ago?
R.J.
Possible, the history of Voigtlaender is a long one.
As far as I know the name belongs to the german "Ring Foto" which is a group of photo dealers.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 10:04
Volker,
Have you ever tried Voigtländer film?
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000D81QC.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
R.J.
Probably :-)
but under a different brand:
http://www.ihrplatz.de/_Pics/images_eigenmarke/foto_universal.jpg
and Porst, which belongs to Ringfoto, offers the same stuff as Color X.
I think they are both Ferania Solaris.
BTW, Photo Porst and the german voigtlaender page are on the same IP address.
yossarian
12-20-2005, 10:59
It had interchangeable film magazine backs. Maybe Zeiss is thinking of a twofer, as
with the Leica R...
Well, I don't see this as too surprising (using hindsight of course). Zeiss is no longer selling as many camera lenses as they used to. Contax is dead, and Hasselblad has gone to Fuji, and Rollei is a shadow of its former self, which was not that formidable in the first place. They needed to reestablish themselves in the pro / expensive enthusiast lens category, and so they are doing it with the Ikon and with aftermarket lenses for a major manufacturer. Since they are not competing with themselves (they have no native SLR/lens system in 35mm or MF now that contax is gone), it makes perfect sense for them to try to piggyback on another system's lens mount. They are selling M mount lenses (and a body) for the simple reason that they don't need to create a market. They can just undercut Leica prices with lenses that are approximately equal in quality and expect to sell a lot of lenses. With Nikon, it is a slightly different model, but still very similar. They can sell lenses that will be perceived as better than Nikon for a higher price and try to take the top of the market away from Nikon. Competition's a bitch. It is the good/bad of sticking with the old lens mounts: on the one hand you make the customers happy because they can use their old lenses, but on the other you open yourself up to competition when the patents expire...
Well, I don't see this as too surprising (using hindsight of course). Zeiss is no longer selling as many camera lenses as they used to. Contax is dead, and Hasselblad has gone to Fuji, and Rollei is a shadow of its former self, which was not that formidable in the first place. They needed to reestablish themselves in the pro / expensive enthusiast lens category, and so they are doing it with the Ikon and with aftermarket lenses for a major manufacturer. Since they are not competing with themselves (they have no native SLR/lens system in 35mm or MF now that contax is gone), it makes perfect sense for them to try to piggyback on another system's lens mount. They are selling M mount lenses (and a body) for the simple reason that they don't need to create a market. They can just undercut Leica prices with lenses that are approximately equal in quality and expect to sell a lot of lenses. With Nikon, it is a slightly different model, but still very similar. They can sell lenses that will be perceived as better than Nikon for a higher price and try to take the top of the market away from Nikon. Competition's a bitch. It is the good/bad of sticking with the old lens mounts: on the one hand you make the customers happy because they can use their old lenses, but on the other you open yourself up to competition when the patents expire...
Further, you may recall that in announcing the new Nikon D-200 they made it fully backwardly compatible to ALL prior Nikkor lenses. Thus Zeiss suddenly has an "entry" in the DSLR prosumer market!
JoeFriday
12-20-2005, 11:41
well, as a D70 owner, I can safely say that if the Zeiss lenses are remotely affordable, they will be very welcome in my camera bag.. I've stopped using my Nikon gear mostly because the Nikkor glass generally sucks compared to most RF gear.. and to my knowledge there isn't an adapter for the Nikon mount like there is for the EOS system
once I see the prices I'll decide if I'll be keeping my Nikon DSLR after all
You may be in for an ugly surprise, I think they'll make non-CPU AI-S lenses which won't be of much use on anything below a D2h, D2x or D200 and the older or current high end film bodies.
JoeFriday
12-20-2005, 12:19
I haven't investigated it much, but I think non-CPU AI-S lenses are compatible with the D70.. you lose metering capability, but I generally don't use the internal meter on that digital camera.. I just shoot a photo.. look at the histogram and make a quick adjustment
well, as a D70 owner, I can safely say that if the Zeiss lenses are remotely affordable, they will be very welcome in my camera bag.. I've stopped using my Nikon gear mostly because the Nikkor glass generally sucks compared to most RF gear.. and to my knowledge there isn't an adapter for the Nikon mount like there is for the EOS system
once I see the prices I'll decide if I'll be keeping my Nikon DSLR after all
Actually, the high grade Nikkor lenses (i.e. made in Japan) are very good. And priced accordingly.
But they also have the plastic cheapos (made in Thailand etc.) that are sold as "kit" lenses with lower end camera bodies and are kind of crappy.
Looks like this marketing tactic has "cheapened" the Nikkor lens reputation and apparently created an opening for Zeiss at the high end.
Sigma has been making lenses for EOS mount, Nikon, Minolta etc as well as their own Sigma cameras for several years, and some of their EX line are pretty good. If CZ are going into the aftermarket for Nikon, I'd guess they'll have an EOS mount also within a pretty short time. Why not? It's probably the biggest segment of that market.
JoeFriday
12-20-2005, 12:56
I agree.. I know there is high quality Nikkor glass out there.. but I never felt like paying the price they demand.. if Zeiss can move in and grab that 'between' market, a lot of people will notice
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 13:08
Actually, the high grade Nikkor lenses (i.e. made in Japan) are very good. And priced accordingly.
But they also have the plastic cheapos (made in Thailand etc.) that are sold as "kit" lenses with lower end camera bodies and are kind of crappy.
Looks like this marketing tactic has "cheapened" the Nikkor lens reputation and apparently created an opening for Zeiss at the high end.
Calling something a cheepo and crap because of where it is made "Made in Thailand" is a colorful statement but far from reality. Because Im writing this from Thailand and involved in some manufacturing projects here I can tell you for a fact anything and I mean anything you can dream up can be made here to the highest qaulity standards. It is more a reflection on Nikon and what they choose to produce rather than the Country of origin. All technology started with food production and the need to grow more food on less desireable and or smaller plots of land and took off from there. Foodwise Thailand is the richest country Ive ever seen from the amounts, diversity, and qaulity.
I like the rest of us wait in anticipation to see the confirmation of ZF lenses and find all this very exciting, I just hope it dosnt turn out to be some kind of elaborate hoax. Long live the Nikon F, Ziess, and Black and White Film.
Calling something a cheepo and crap because of where it is made "Made in Thailand" is a colorful statement but far from reality. Because Im writing this from Thailand and involved in some manufacturing projects here I can tell you for a fact anything and I mean anything you can dream up can be made here to the highest qaulity standards. It is more a reflection on Nikon and what they choose to produce rather than the Country of origin. All technology started with food production and the need to grow more food on less desireable and or smaller plots of land and took off from there. Foodwise Thailand is the richest country Ive ever seen from the amounts, diversity, and qaulity.
I like the rest of us wait in anticipation to see the confirmation of ZF lenses and find all this very exciting, I just hope it dosnt turn out to be some kind of elaborate hoax. Long live the Nikon F, Ziess, and Black and White Film.
Seems to be a misunderstanding here. It was not my intent to say that because it is made it Thailand it is cheapo crap. But rather that Nikon chose Thailand as the locale for where they make lower end lenses.
That's all I'll say about this.
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 13:30
They make three tilt/shift lenses that are manual focus only.
Thanks for clearing that up.
The EOS mount has no mechanical coupling for aperture control. I don't see Zeiss bothering with the electronics or offering lenses that can only be used with stopped-down metering. Canon would also be reluctant to license out to Zeiss who, unlike Tamron, is a formidable competitor of their L range and even the higher-priced non-L's.
And don't forget Sigma who reverse engineer the mount and the resulting compatibility issues. Yet another reason not seeing Zeiss lenses in EOS mount.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 13:55
The stats at the bottom of the page say 2 members and 62 guests are viewing this thread!! :p
R.J.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 14:16
Check the FAQs on the Zeiss site (http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/search/DD9620D4BF2FABF141256B0300362CD7?OpenDocument):
FAQ
Zeiss Lenses for Cameras from Nikon, Canon, Minolta,...?
Carl Zeiss keeps receiving inquiries for high quality Carl Zeiss lenses to be used with cameras from Canon, Minolta, mainly Nikon.
Yes, it is possible, in a way:
Novoflex, the well known manufacturer of versatile accessories produces an adapter system to ac-comodate Carl Zeiss high quality lenses made for Hasselblad medium format cameras to almost any important 35 mm SLR camera.
With the Novoflex adapter the imaging per-formance of the respective Carl Zeiss lens can be utilized to the fullest in manual mode, while automatic features like diaphragm actuator, f-stop-simulator, and autofocus won't work. Our tests with Hasselblad lenses and Contax cameras gave perfect results. With the Contax AX even autofocus worked properly.
R.J.
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 14:25
The EOS mount has no mechanical coupling for aperture control. I don't see Zeiss bothering with the electronics or offering lenses that can only be used with stopped-down metering. Canon would also be reluctant to license out to Zeiss who, unlike Tamron, is a formidable competitor of their L range and even the higher-priced non-L's.
And don't forget Sigma who reverse engineer the mount and the resulting compatibility issues. Yet another reason not seeing Zeiss lenses in EOS mount.
I agree as well. More trouble than it's worth. Plus, they would be marketing to a large audience that wouldn't want to bother with manual focus and cameras that were not designed for manual focus.
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 14:28
Seems to be a misunderstanding here. It was not my intent to say that because it is made it Thailand it is cheapo crap. But rather that Nikon chose Thailand as the locale for where they make lower end lenses.
That's all I'll say about this.
No problem, I didnt think you had bad intentions or anything anyway. I havent had much interest in anything Nikon has been making lately outside of the scanners. The FM2 on the otherhand with a new Ziess telephoto lense would be very appealing.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 14:51
Well, I don't see this as too surprising (using hindsight of course). Zeiss is no longer selling as many camera lenses as they used to. Contax is dead, and Hasselblad has gone to Fuji, and Rollei is a shadow of its former self, which was not that formidable in the first place. They needed to reestablish themselves in the pro / expensive enthusiast lens category, and so they are doing it with the Ikon and with aftermarket lenses for a major manufacturer. Since they are not competing with themselves (they have no native SLR/lens system in 35mm or MF now that contax is gone), it makes perfect sense for them to try to piggyback on another system's lens mount. They are selling M mount lenses (and a body) for the simple reason that they don't need to create a market. They can just undercut Leica prices with lenses that are approximately equal in quality and expect to sell a lot of lenses. With Nikon, it is a slightly different model, but still very similar. They can sell lenses that will be perceived as better than Nikon for a higher price and try to take the top of the market away from Nikon. Competition's a bitch. It is the good/bad of sticking with the old lens mounts: on the one hand you make the customers happy because they can use their old lenses, but on the other you open yourself up to competition when the patents expire...
The Rollei story is a bizarre one. Some people think that Samsung bought Rollei in 1995 just so they could use the Rollei name on their wristwatches. Samsung no longer owns Rollei but they own Burett Swiss Sports Watches, Haas & Cie. and Nouvelle Piquerez. Rolex sued them in 1997 and won. If you want a Rollei wristwatch, you'll have to go to Korea to buy one. :) More here (http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/1998/mar98/0398tn1.html)
R.J.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 15:07
According to this website (http://www.vermontel.net/~wsalati/CasualCollector/cosina.htm), Cosina made the Canon T-60, Nikon FM-10, Olympus OM-2000, Ricoh KR-5-Super-2 and Yashica FX.
R.J.
Huck Finn
12-20-2005, 15:18
You may be in for an ugly surprise, I think they'll make non-CPU AI-S lenses which won't be of much use on anything below a D2h, D2x or D200 and the older or current high end film bodies.
Nikon has made one AIS manual focus lens WITH a CPU - the 45/2.8-P, a pancake lens to mate with the FM3a. They have not come out with any more "P" lenses, i.e. MF lenses that will work with advanced metering systems. This would be a nice niche for Zeiss to fill with theses ZF lenses.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 15:21
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/363166.jpg
B&H has the Voigtlander lenses in Nikon AI mount. I'll bet that the Zeiss lenses will look very similar to these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=317&shs=&ci=8433&ac=&Submit.x=13&Submit.y=9):
R.J.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/363166.jpg
B&H has the Voigtlander lenses in Nikon AI mount. I'll bet that the Zeiss lenses will look very similar to these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=317&shs=&ci=8433&ac=&Submit.x=13&Submit.y=9):
R.J.
R.J.
Great minds think alike - although you posted first - darn it.
As I thought about this more and more - and who would be benifited it became obvious. This is the "next shoe drop" of the Zeiss/Cosina partnership.
The Nikon-compatible, Cosina-made lenses are going to be re-branded with the Zeiss label.
Makes a whole lot more sense now - I mean really, how else could Zeiss "suddenly" come up with a line of Nikon F-mount lenses?
Another "clever" case of Cosina taking advantage of a German "brand" and vice versa. :p
how else could Zeiss "suddenly" come up with a line of Nikon F-mount lenses.
The way they "suddenly" come up with a line of Leica-mount lenses is also by re-branding Voigtlander offerings. Very clever indeed. :rolleyes:
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 16:18
I wonder if Cosina has changed the Bessa Flex and will offer it as a F mount or just configred a whole new manual reflex camera with the AE shutter off the new R2a/R3a for new Ziess F mount lenses? I better lay off the coffee.
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 16:28
The Nikon-compatible, Cosina-made lenses are going to be re-branded with the Zeiss label.
I must disagree with this point. If these are Zeiss designs: Planar, Sonnar, Distagon, etc., they won't be rebadged Cosina Voigtlander lenses. These will be built under license using Zeiss lens designs and adhere to Zeiss quality control.
If anything, they will rely on Zeiss designs from the Kyocera Contax. After all, Zeiss -- not Kyocera -- holds the patents on those lens designs.
And the Zeiss M-mount lenses for the Zeiss Ikon are not rebadged Voigtlander M lenses.
I must disagree with this point. If these are Zeiss designs: Planar, Sonnar, Distagon, etc., they won't be rebadged Cosina Voigtlander lenses. These will be built under license using Zeiss lens designs and adhere to Zeiss quality control.
If anything, they will rely on Zeiss designs from the Kyocera Contax. After all, Zeiss -- not Kyocera -- holds the patents on those lens designs.
And the Zeiss M-mount lenses for the Zeiss Ikon are not rebadged Voigtlander M lenses.
Mike,
You may well be right - and we're all about to find out.
But what I noted was that these are Nikon F-mount SLR lenses. How would Zeiss 'suddenly' adapt their M-mount RF lenses to retro-fit Nikon SLRs? I think that the focal planes would be all screwed up - wouldn't they?
What stuck me was that when I went on the Zeiss website today was that they show the Cosina-made "Zeiss Ikon" camera body with no reference to the fact that they do not make it - Cosina does with their license!
Check it out - no attribution to Cosina at all.
This leads me to suspect that ... well you can figure the rest out.
Regards,
George
So did they just give the announcement the brush off untill next week?...
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9?Open
plummerl
12-20-2005, 16:46
... and the news on Wed. the 21st, is....
Wait until Wed. the 28th!
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B58B9/?Open
larry
waterlenz
12-20-2005, 16:48
I agree.. I know there is high quality Nikkor glass out there.. but I never felt like paying the price they demand.. if Zeiss can move in and grab that 'between' market, a lot of people will notice
I doubt a ZF lens would be signifciantly less costly than a high quality Nikkor, especially now that many MF Nikkors can be had secondhand for a small fraction of the cost of an equal quality new lens. :bang:
Tom
Well, they sure got everyone's blood boiling - didn't they?
I'll bite again, George. See this link: http://www.zeissikon.com/faq.htm
No one, not even ZeissFan, said anything about " 'suddenly' adapt their M-mount RF lenses to retro-fit Nikon SLRs" either.
waterlenz
12-20-2005, 16:56
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/363166.jpg
B&H has the Voigtlander lenses in Nikon AI mount. I'll bet that the Zeiss lenses will look very similar to these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=317&shs=&ci=8433&ac=&Submit.x=13&Submit.y=9):
R.J.
What is really amusing is that these Voigtlaender F mount lenses look quite a bit like Zeiss Ikon Contarex lenses whose production ended in the early 70's but with an aperture ring added.
Tom
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 16:59
Mike,
How would Zeiss 'suddenly' adapt their M-mount RF lenses to retro-fit Nikon SLRs? I think that the focal planes would be all screwed up - wouldn't they?
What struck me was that when I went on the Zeiss website today was that they show the Cosina-made "Zeiss Ikon" camera body with no reference to the fact that they do not make it - Cosina does with their license!
Without having any knowledge, I would think that they are reworking the Zeiss lenses from the Contax SLR to the F mount. That would be much easier, because you only have to adjust for the film to flange distance.
I don't believe these are refitted M lenses because of the reasons you state.
Also, Zeiss makes no mention of the Zeiss Ikon as being a Cosina product, because it's not a Cosina product. It's a Carl Zeiss product. Just as when Cosina was the maker for the lower-end SLRs for Olympus, Nikon and others, those were not branded Cosina. It's the same approach.
The Zeiss Ikon is a Carl Zeiss design. Cosina is only the manufacturer. Sort of like when a builder puts up a house. He'll use subcontractors to install windows, pour cement, do electrical work, maybe do all of the work. But in the end, the builder's name goes up on the house -- not the subcontractors' -- because it's his design that is being built to spec. And when something goes wrong, the builder gets the blame, who of course will roll it downhill onto the subcontractor.
Carl Zeiss AG isn't the type of company that would slap their name onto someone else's lenses. The names Planar, Sonnar, Distagon, Biogon still mean something.
Hope I wasn't being too preachy here. Peace to all. :)
I'll bite again, George. See this link: http://www.zeissikon.com/faq.htm
No one, not even ZeissFan, said anything about " 'suddenly' adapt their M-mount RF lenses to retro-fit Nikon SLRs" either.
'Nuff said. I didn't go to the FAQ's - just the product link from the main web page.
Glad to see that they do acknowledge Cosina relationship and still expect same when these lenses are finally released.
Hey, don't get me wrong - if they are top quality lenses - I'm interested. I just think that the "teaser" was a bit misleading.
If anything, they will rely on Zeiss designs from the Kyocera Contax. After all, Zeiss -- not Kyocera -- holds the patents on those lens designs.
There may be patents, but there also may be various agreements between K and Z which superceed the patent and may prevent Z from certain things *shrug* Or not *shrug*
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 17:01
That lens looks a lot like the f/2.8 135mm Sonnar for the Contarex, right down to the bayonet on the front of the lens.
I wonder where Cosina got its design cue?
these Voigtlaender F mount lenses look quite a bit like Zeiss Ikon Contarex lenses
That's an indirect resemblance. Actually they take after lenses for the Icarex camera, which in turn were styled after Contarex lenses. Why does Cosina pay homage this way? The Icarex was actually a Voigtlander design offered by - who else? - Zeiss Ikon Voigtlander. http://anusf.anu.edu.au/~aab900/photography/cameras/zeiss_icon.htm
Frank Granovski
12-20-2005, 17:10
Damn! Chaser's right:More on Wednesday, December 28
ZeissFan
12-20-2005, 17:10
by the way, this has been an excellent discussion.
waterlenz
12-20-2005, 17:14
That's an indirect resemblance. Actually they take after lenses for the Icarex camera, which in turn were styled after Contarex lenses. Why does Cosina pay homage this way? The Icarex was actually a Voigtlander design offered by - who else? - Zeiss Ikon Voigtlander. http://anusf.anu.edu.au/~aab900/photography/cameras/zeiss_icon.htm
Are you suggesting that the Contarex lenses were a Voigtlaender design? :confused: My 'Zeiss Compendium' is presently 5000 miles from me so I am unable to check that particular reference.
Tom
Are you suggesting that the Contarex lenses were a Voigtlaender design?
Why do people keep having trouble reading my posts, or even Mike's? :rolleyes:
It's the Icarex camera that's a Voigtlander design.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 17:22
I must disagree with this point. If these are Zeiss designs: Planar, Sonnar, Distagon, etc., they won't be rebadged Cosina Voigtlander lenses. These will be built under license using Zeiss lens designs and adhere to Zeiss quality control.
If anything, they will rely on Zeiss designs from the Kyocera Contax. After all, Zeiss -- not Kyocera -- holds the patents on those lens designs.
And the Zeiss M-mount lenses for the Zeiss Ikon are not rebadged Voigtlander M lenses.
Volker (Socke) mentioned that the 40mm f/2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=363154&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation) was probably a Tessar design.
R.J.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 17:27
R.J.
Great minds think alike - although you posted first - darn it.
Thaks Goerge but u is difinitely smartah! :p
R.J.
Six leaked photos.....hmmm....that may lead to "More on mmddd..." six times around.
Volker (Socke) mentioned that the 40mm f/2 was probably a Tessar design.But it's not, of course, with that f/2 aperture and 6 elements in 5 groups. I have one... This 40mm SL-series lens is reputedly Cosina Pres. Hirofumi Kobayashi's favorite focal length. Smallest aperture f/16, half-stop clicks between f/2.8-8, 9-blade diaphragm, 57 deg view, focus to 0.4m, 52mm filter. Lens diameter is 63.5mm, about 30mm long
There hasn't been any Tessar-type formulations at f/2 - f/2.8 is already pushing the design a bit far.
Huck Finn
12-20-2005, 18:38
Six leaked photos.....hmmm....that may lead to "More on mmddd..." six times around.
Looks like you hit the nail on the head, Leafy. "More to come on December 28." :rolleyes:
XXXGRAPENUTSXXX
12-20-2005, 18:54
Yet another teaser from Zeiss: http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9?Open
Shipment begins for the black version of the Zeiss Ikon and/or the 15mm Distagon? Announcement of the digital version? Revival of the Contax marque?
now the web site is saying Wednesday december 28th......what's happening
It means we will get to the bottom of what we have already known six weeks later.
Folks, move on, back to rangefinder shooting, there is nothing to see here. :)
They now have Zeiss presents the ZF. More info on the 28th. They are really pissing me off. Just release the press article and deal with it !
Yeah. If they keep this up, my money's going to a 85/2 Ai Nikkor instead of waiting for the Zeiss equivalent. :bang:
Yeah, that's really cheezy. If you are going to announce something, just do it. I am sure the product will be fine, but why drag it out? It is not a TV cliff-hanger or a book, they're camera lenses!
I knew it, they just go the same way as with the announcement of the Ikon :)
Cheers
Thomas-Michael
RJBender
12-20-2005, 21:17
They now have Zeiss presents the ZF. More info on the 28th. They are really pissing me off. Just release the press article and deal with it !
Jorge,
I think it's strange that a large number of guests are viewing this thread. Several hours ago it was over 60 now it's 35 or so. I wonder if zeiss.com's IP address is on your log? :p
R.J.
this thread was linked on photo.net's Nikon forum, so I am sure there are many people coming in from there.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 21:25
... and the news on Wed. the 21st, is....
Wait until Wed. the 28th!
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B58B9/?Open
larry
TOP SECRET!!! Must be due to some last-minute legal maneuvering. BTW those German pastries look nice! :D
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF02grossen/$File/02_top_en.jpg
R.J.
RJBender
12-20-2005, 21:32
this thread was linked on photo.net's Nikon forum, so I am sure there are many people coming in from there.
That probably explains it. I usually only see 2 or 3 guests per thread.
R.J.
Howdy!
It seems Zeiss is playing the same games that Nikon did when the announced that stupid square coolpix camera.
This has me worried. The more fluff they ad to the marketing like this, the cheesier the product usually is.
-- Karl
The real question is will these lenses, assuming that is what this is all about, be really adapted to work well with digital sensors. If they haven't retooled to adapt to the need of digital sensors, then it's much ado about nothing. The main thing they need to correct for is the angle at which the light hits the sensor.
If they are doing this just for film, then they'll probably see a short burst of sales, but it's chasing a dying market.
that one leaked banner suggests these lenses will have an image circle that covers 35mm. i would have liked it if they were only for digital, so the fields of view would be spot on.
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 21:50
Maybe its a whole system including the body like I was suggesting before. It would be very easy for them to do the same thing Cosina did with the R2 body when they made it into the Bessa Flex. They could convert the Ikon to a Ikon Flex. I would deffinatly be interested in that. I love Rangefinders but SLR telephoto and macro cant be beat on small format film.
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 22:07
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0512/zeissdigital-big.jpg
RJBender
12-20-2005, 22:12
Maybe its a whole system including the body like I was suggesting before. It would be very easy for them to do the same thing Cosina did with the R2 body when they made it into the Bessa Flex. They could convert the Ikon to a Ikon Flex. I would deffinatly be interested in that. I love Rangefinders but SLR telephoto and macro cant be beat on small format film.
Bryan, if the Zeiss system includes a Cosina camera body, do you think Nikon will keep using Cosina to make camera bodies for them? :confused:
R.J.
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 22:26
Bryan, if the Zeiss system includes a Cosina camera body, do you think Nikon will keep using Cosina to make camera bodies for them? :confused:
R.J.
I dont realy think it would cause a problem but who knows.
This is my latest thought ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, A new Sony/Ziess Digital SLR system in F mount. This is just from reading into their own wording. I dont think anyone has the fantasy that MILLIONS of film cameras will be sold in the future or that film could ever incorperate the term "NEW DEMINSION" into its current marketing terminology.
sheepdog
12-20-2005, 22:48
Bryan:
Sony's dSLR plans surely include the Minolta Maxxum mount, Anti-Shake and other Konica Minolta patents after their cooperation was announced early this autumn. There was an interview with someone at Sony some time ago where it was disclosed that Sony first went after Nikon, who refused (or something to that effect) before deciding on teaming up with KM.
Many KM users on dpreview, myself included, were pretty sure that Zeiss would announce KM-mount glass (to go with upcoming Sony-branded bodies) until the leaked images (whose authenticity are confirmed by the new banner presented on the Zeiss site today) turned up..
Kind regards
Kjetil
Bryan Lee
12-20-2005, 23:25
Bryan:
Sony's dSLR plans surely include the Minolta Maxxum mount, Anti-Shake and other Konica Minolta patents after their cooperation was announced early this autumn. There was an interview with someone at Sony some time ago where it was disclosed that Sony first went after Nikon, who refused (or something to that effect) before deciding on teaming up with KM.
Many KM users on dpreview, myself included, were pretty sure that Zeiss would announce KM-mount glass (to go with upcoming Sony-branded bodies) until the leaked images (whose authenticity are confirmed by the new banner presented on the Zeiss site today) turned up..
Kind regards
Kjetil
Sony and Zeiss have been working with each other on other projects. Im just guessing anyway. As far as the Maxxum mount on digital goes will it even be made in 2 years? Who knows what kind of behind the scene licensing deals these companys have made. The bottem line is money and if if you want to sell a bunch of product you want a sure thing, The F mount if for no other reason is a sure thing in the SLR world. We will be using it till the last roll of film is made and its digital life has just began, Nobody knows what its lifespan will be. As far as mounts go in the future you wont need any wires or connections from body to lense because it will just be connected by inffered or some new communication technology. Last week I saw a big huge ugly lense in a glass case that would no longer work. It was one of the first autofocus lenses ever made. Anyway it goes, Long live the F mount and Long live good glass.
bobofish
12-20-2005, 23:51
I guess there could be two schools of thought regarding Zeiss and the F-mount/KM mount.
First off, having one mount to sell their lenses on would be something like having their own competing brand, Contax...if you want those lenses, you have to go for that mount. Nikon offers some excellent bodies, and as many people have said about a possible deal between Leica and Nikon, Nikon is really the only Japanese company with the brand prestige to make high end users happy.
The theory would be that by selling their lenses in the one mount, they will get less brand confusion, and people won't shop around as much through different bodies and sensors to end up with their lenses...quite simply they will either use their existing Nikon bodies, or purchase a new Nikon.
The other school of thought would of course be also quite logical, that Zeiss, lacking their own lens platform now (Contax R.I.P., Hasselblad now with Fuji, etc.) could become the only "high end" third party lens company. Everybody knows about Sigma, Tamron and Tokina, etc. but there have been very few forays into direct competition of quality with proprietary lenses from the camera manufacturers. And of course these days, there is no lens that you can buy new for a Nikon or Canon that is not arguably better when it is made by Nikon or Canon.
Zeiss would essentially be taking the opposite approach to Sigma/Tamron, etc. in that in stead of offering very attractively priced lenses with very close to the performance of much more expensive Nikon, Canon, etc. lenses, they would cater to the people who are not satisfied with Canon, Nikon peformance in the lens department, but like the bodies.
After all, just about everybody knows that Nikon and Canon bodies, and to some extent Minolta bodies (we'll see how that develops with Konica) outperform Leica slr bodies, and Contax is defunct, regardless of how it could compete with state of the art matrix metering and all that jazz.
Going with Nikon only would I think successfully continue the image of exclusivity that Zeiss still enjoys, despite its relationships with Nokia and Sony. Going with several lens mounts would provide them a wide market to guarantee their survival independant of one company's amazing achievements or terrible mistakes.
After all, it could well be that Nikon won't ultimately be able to compete in the full-frame market before they lose most of their market share...it could also well be that Nikon will come around one day to kick Canon in the bum.
Speculation....the fruit of idle minds, eh?
TOP SECRET!!! Must be due to some last-minute legal maneuvering. BTW those German pastries look nice! :D
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF02grossen/$File/02_top_en.jpg
R.J.
Guys, hold your horses... I just realized something.... with the 6-week release of this info, what happens right after that?... PMA!!! We probably won't see the full details until just before PMA.
So it's sounds interesting, but we are going to have to wait until then for the actual news.
The Nikon-compatible, Cosina-made lenses are going to be re-branded with the Zeiss label.
Yeah! Probably like they rebranded their Leica M compatible lenses with the Zeiss brand :angel:
RObert Budding
12-21-2005, 00:20
I must disagree with this point. If these are Zeiss designs: Planar, Sonnar, Distagon, etc., they won't be rebadged Cosina Voigtlander lenses. These will be built under license using Zeiss lens designs and adhere to Zeiss quality control.
If anything, they will rely on Zeiss designs from the Kyocera Contax. After all, Zeiss -- not Kyocera -- holds the patents on those lens designs.
And the Zeiss M-mount lenses for the Zeiss Ikon are not rebadged Voigtlander M lenses.
And the Zeiss designs for Kyocera are damn fine lenses!
Robert
There hasn't been any Tessar-type formulations at f/2 - f/2.8 is already pushing the design a bit far.
The F2 was puzzeling me, too. Dumb me didn't look up the lens design which is a dead giveaway that it is not a Tessar.
I came to the assumption from the small size, since I first saw a Tessar 45/2.8 on a Contax Aria it is the ultimate pancake lens for me :-)
The only Tessars I own are in a Rolleiflex and a Rollei 35TE.
Huck Finn
12-21-2005, 03:28
Maybe its a whole system including the body like I was suggesting before. It would be very easy for them to do the same thing Cosina did with the R2 body when they made it into the Bessa Flex. They could convert the Ikon to a Ikon Flex. I would deffinatly be interested in that. I love Rangefinders but SLR telephoto and macro cant be beat on small format film.
Nikon already has manual focus bodies at thre different price points - one made by Coina. There is absolutely no gap in the product line for this. An FM3a will do the job.
TOP SECRET!!! Must be due to some last-minute legal maneuvering. BTW those German pastries look nice! :D
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF02grossen/$File/02_top_en.jpg
R.J.
German pasteries! ive figured it all out! ZF isnt zeiss mount nikon lenses, its Zeiss made Zero Fat german pasteries for us photographers who sit around all day online reading forum speculations and stuffing ourselfs with pasteries because we are too lazy to go to cook anything.
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 04:57
Nikon already has manual focus bodies at thre different price points - one made by Coina. There is absolutely no gap in the product line for this. An FM3a will do the job.
You are correct in your facts but companys do this everyday. A Chevy SUV could get everyone to the bank but Caddilac went right ahead and came out with their version of the SUV at a higher price and made money for themselves as a branding issue. As soon as I saw them say Millions as in Millions of customers I immediatly thought and still believe it will in some way work with digital cameras. We already know it will be SLR related and F seems to be the Key to the mystery so I just added that and the fact they are partners with Sony on so many cameras and the fact Sony has no numbers in the SLR market but is huge in the digital market and mixed it all together and here it is, Sony/Zeiss DSLR gear on F mount. Im sure Sony would love to be in the SLR pro market and we dont know what they may have had on the back burner over there. Ill admit its a pretty wild guess and may be completely off the mark. After all things are considered for me I cant get past them saying Millions and not having eqauting it to digital. While I love film and will never stop using it I dont believe anybody in there right mind sees a big future in analog cameras or sales of millions of anything that will go on them. Id like to see some numbers on how many film SLRs were sold over the last couple years and out of those how many were manual cameras like the FM3. Again there will always be a market for Retro Cameras and even Cooke came out with a couple new large format lenses after 50 years of nothing. Im watching this all with much interest and my speculations are just guesses based on my understanding which could easily be debated as a good lack of understanding. Cheese.
darkkavenger
12-21-2005, 05:31
I suggest a poll : Should Carl Zeiss marketing staff be burned alive for putting us in such mental and physical exhaustion? ;)
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 05:49
I suggest a poll : Should Carl Zeiss marketing staff be burned alive for putting us in such mental and physical exhaustion? ;)
For sure they should give away some of whatever project they are going to relaese to the participents in this thread to try out or smash depending on if its any of the stuff any of us want. How about one of those clown in the cage booths where you throw a baseball and dunk them at the next PhotoTek or big 5 camera shows, I could go for that. I have a fealing if they miss the next given release date there will be hell to pay. At least we can all get mad at somebody else and not each other. Cheese.
darkkavenger
12-21-2005, 06:11
Oh!!! Bryan, please stop it with cheese!!! ;)
I've to wait 1.. 2.. 3.. t h r e e looooong days before landing in France and tasting the most exquisite kinds of cheese at my parents... well I agree I am a cheese maniac and purchase french and italian cheese even here in Prague ;)
Anyway I'll get myself a 300/4 Zeiss MC Sonnar for Xmas, maybe! So I don't care *that* much about the ZF mount, as long as we have Zeiss lenses in Kiev/Contax and Pentacon Six mount ;)
ok ok i'm waaaaaay OT!
Max
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 06:23
Oh!!! Bryan, please stop it with cheese!!! ;)
I've to wait 1.. 2.. 3.. t h r e e looooong days before landing in France and tasting the most exquisite kinds of cheese at my parents... well I agree I am a cheese maniac and purchase french and italian cheese even here in Prague ;)
Anyway I'll get myself a 300/4 Zeiss MC Sonnar for Xmas, maybe! So I don't care *that* much about the ZF mount, as long as we have Zeiss lenses in Kiev/Contax and Pentacon Six mount ;)
ok ok i'm waaaaaay OT!
Max
Be sure and get some good French Cheese Photos so when we start our Camera and Cheese thread youll be ready. Cheese Photography,,, Peace, Love, and Cheese,,, Got Cheese?,,, Time for sleep, More Cheese Later. b.
Huck Finn
12-21-2005, 07:11
You are correct in your facts but companys do this everyday. A Chevy SUV could get everyone to the bank but Caddilac went right ahead and came out with their version of the SUV at a higher price and made money for themselves as a branding issue. As soon as I saw them say Millions as in Millions of customers I immediatly thought and still believe it will in some way work with digital cameras. We already know it will be SLR related and F seems to be the Key to the mystery so I just added that and the fact they are partners with Sony on so many cameras and the fact Sony has no numbers in the SLR market but is huge in the digital market and mixed it all together and here it is, Sony/Zeiss DSLR gear on F mount. Im sure Sony would love to be in the SLR pro market and we dont know what they may have had on the back burner over there. Ill admit its a pretty wild guess and may be completely off the mark. After all things are considered for me I cant get past them saying Millions and not having eqauting it to digital. While I love film and will never stop using it I dont believe anybody in there right mind sees a big future in analog cameras or sales of millions of anything that will go on them. Id like to see some numbers on how many film SLRs were sold over the last couple years and out of those how many were manual cameras like the FM3. Again there will always be a market for Retro Cameras and even Cooke came out with a couple new large format lenses after 50 years of nothing. Im watching this all with much interest and my speculations are just guesses based on my understanding which could easily be debated as a good lack of understanding. Cheese.
All good points, Bryan. I shouldn't have restricted myself to examples of film cameras. Since these are F-mount lenses, I assume that they can be used on Nikon digital cameras.
I too am interested to see what Zeiss doeswith regard to digital. They have said repeatedly that their M-mount lenses are ready for digital when the time comes that digital is ready for them - which, to Zeiss, means means a full frame sensor for RF. Perhaps they feel differently about SLR technolgy & will have a camera to go with the lenses. This would be consistent with the path they followed for RF. The picture of an FM2 in the banner suggests that the lenses are intended for film use, but this may be only a piece of the puzzle with more to come.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 08:54
German pasteries! ive figured it all out! ZF isnt zeiss mount nikon lenses, its Zeiss made Zero Fat german pasteries for us photographers who sit around all day online reading forum speculations and stuffing ourselfs with pasteries because we are too lazy to go to cook anything.
LOL!! :D :p :)
R.J.
Here's the rest of the hints and a large version of the last one.
yossarian
12-21-2005, 09:24
The 40mm Ultron has some similarity to the Zuiko 40/2.0, which had 6 air-spaced elements and some radical curvature on the elements on either side of the diaphragm. In front of the diaphragm they are nearly identical, but behind it you find the cemented pair which differentiates the Ultron.
BTW--there have been a few Tessar derivatives faster than 2.8, but only for SLRs--
The Fujinon 55/2.2 and the Riconar 55/2.2. See, even RICOH felt the need to assign a different name to their lowest-end lens. (Before anyone asks, the 50/2.4 Prakticar has 5 elements).
Ain't marketing fun?
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 11:50
HOCHLEISTUNGSOBJEKTIVE (http://www.zeiss.de/c1256d6c004d10b2/Contents-Frame/a47654cf26c097adc1256faa0058b89a)
http://www.zeiss.de/C1256D6C004E1E25/GraphikTitelIntern/HNSanyo/$File/sanyo.jpg
http://www.zeiss.de/C1256D6C004E1E25/GraphikTitelIntern/HNASPStopfPilz/$File/ASPStopfPilz.jpg
A possible peice of the puzzle?
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 12:14
Carl Zeiss and Sinar close strategic co-operation for digital High end to photography
Swiss camera manufacturer Sinar sets on objectives of the optics optikschmiede made of upper cooking
Oberkochen/Feuerthalen/Koeln, 28.09.2004. The conversion of the chemical film to direct digitalaufnahme makes possible to achieve already on mittelformatigen image sensors the enormous image quality, which in former times exclusively the chemical large size cameras was reserved. The digital central format is revalued thereby to the king class of the photography, is adapted mobile on specialized cameras in the Studiobereich or it with mirror reflex cameras. Carl Zeiss, offerer of objectives for central format photography also over 40 different types for four different camera manufacturers, leading world-wide, communicates to the Photokina its co-operation with Sinar, to Swiss manufacturer of top class cameras for the occupation photography.
With four autofocus objectives the Sinaron starts digitally AF program of Carl Zeiss for Sinar. The optical Design of the objectives is optimized for digital High ends to photography, which form a service range with the Sinar Digitalbacks with 22 megapixels dissolution and display formats of 49x36 mm as well as the digital Sinar cameras.
Carl J. Koch, Marketing-Leiter von Sinar, says: "our fastidious customers demanded ever more strongly high-performance lenses for its fastidious Shootings on location. Carl Zeiss to respond was for us the logical consequence. We are pleased much to be able to offer in the future a line those fulfilled from the objective to the digital picture receiver also in a compact, modular professional camera system, the Sinar m, the highest professional requirements." For Christian Bannert, development leader in the division of photo objectives of Carl Zeiss, offered itself this co-operation: "as Sinar before two years on the Photokina addressed us, had we spontaneously a feeling that here two related mentalities together-find. The culture of both enterprises fits well to offer with the slope for the precision and clear objective, professional photographer the best equipment."
With Hasselblad, Rollei, Alpa and Kyocera with the Contax 645 Sinar is the fifth partner of Carl Zeiss in the segment central format. Dr. Winfried Scherle, division leader of photo objectives at Carl Zeiss is convinced: "by co-operation with Sinar we continue to develop our strong position in the central format. It offers good growth perspectives." The delivery beginning of the objective row is planned for the spring 2005.
Kornelius Mueller
Marketing of photo objectives
Tel.: +49 7364 20-2687
Fax: +49 7364 20-4045
E-Mail: ko.mueller@zeiss.de
wlewisiii
12-21-2005, 12:17
High Speed Objective? for Nikon F... So what's the fastest lens Nikon is currently making?
William
High Speed Objective? for Nikon F... So what's the fastest lens Nikon is currently making?
William
Didn't check every page but I'm guessing this one:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36976&is=USA&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
It's got to be a 1.4 of some stripe....50 and 85 IIRC. The era of super speed lenses was really the 80s...
Edit: Well, copake-ham "learned me good", to use a wantonly ungrammatical expression. So 50/1.2 is their fastest. But I will assume that their fastest AF lenses are 1.4. Yes, I know they make some super speed microscope and scientific lenses that can be duct taped onto an SLR, but I am talking current, normal production lenses.
Frank Granovski
12-21-2005, 12:32
The Zeiss objective is not speed. The objective is to make sharper and more bokehful lenses than Nikon, for Nikon owners. That is clear.
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 12:41
MYSTERY SOLVED (http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/e_html/e_m.htm)
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_MF2.jpg
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_KB.jpg
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_MF_Explosion.jpg
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_System.jpg
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 12:45
Sinar m
Sinar m Philosophy
Flexibility – Our Product Philosophy
The world of professional photography has changed dramatically – the demand for .exibility has become stronger than ever before. This affects photographers as they work and, of course, the camera systems that they use in practicing their craft. Sinar has made .exibility a policy ever since the company was founded and it faithfully continues to observe that policy. And now, with the Sinar m System, the concept of .exibility achieves entirely new dimensions never before known in photography.
An Inspired Step
Our vision was to develop a system that provides the photographer with maximum .exibility. In order to achieve that goal, it should be possible to assemble the most diverse components tailored to their respective applications, thus enabling the photographer to accomplish his tasks easily and quickly, with no sacri.ce in quality. With today’s technology, this idea appeared to be current and feasible – and this motivated us to develop the Sinar m System. The Sinar m combines the world of the view camera with components of medium format- and 35 mm cameras in a unique manner. In addition to the obvious economic advantages, this option offers fascinating new creative possibilities for image capture and pictorial expression.
Reliability and Value Conservation
The heart of this unique system that so beautifully meets the demands of professional digital high-end photography is the Sinar m. Whether it is used as a view camera or as a compact professional camera, the Sinar m is a modern, fast and fully electronically controlled focal plane shutter that is highly effective in every situation. It takes but a few hand movements to attach the various modules to the Sinar m in order to ready it for a speci.c task. These modules are optimally tailored to one another mechanically and they are equipped with microprocessors that communicate with one another. The results obtained with the Sinar m System favorably stand any comparison with regards to quality and production ef.ciency.
Precision is Fundamental
The high performance capability of current and future systems requires an extremely precise camera- and lens technology. Only with that high level of precision can the performance capability of modern sensors with smaller pixel sizes on the same surface area be utilized effectively while still achieving the required data quality. Compromises in precision add up to signi.cant losses in quality, which is why the investment in a high-resolution digital back can only be justi.ed in conjunction with appropriately precise camera systems. Because of the smaller pixels of modern sensors, this fact has to be taken into account increasingly.
Sinar m with Autofocus
In a Class of its Own
Concentrate on your subject and leave everything else to the Sinar m and its Sinaron Digital AF Mirror Module. Its autofocus system works with absolute reliability – with the precision of a Swiss clock. What’s more, its speed should thoroughly impress every professional user, because it is among the very fastest of its class. In cooperation with the .rm of Carl Zeiss, the lenses for the autofocus con.guration of the Sinar m camera were specially designed to meet the highest demands of digital photography. This means, among other criteria, high resolving power and the very best contrast rendition all the way to the edges of the image circle. It is not only with regard to optical quality that we have charted new paths with Sinaron Digital AF lenses, but also with their operation: The focus can also be adjusted manually at any time by means of a focusing ring on the lens that reacts intelligently. When that ring is turned slowly, it activates the .nest focusing steps, when the ring is turned quickly, it produces greater focusing steps. A precise exposure metering system was also developed for this system. It has several metering modes and automatic exposure features, as well as TTL .ash control. They make it possible to evaluate light conditions very accurately in any situation, so that a correctly exposed photograph is assured. The Sinar m Medium Format Mirror Module also allows the use of a large variety of Hasselblad V series lenses. In this case, focusing and setting the aperture is performed manually, although the exposure- and focusing systems of the mirror module can also be used in a supporting manner.
Break Loose!
In this con.guration, which is also ideally suitable for mobile applications, the optional Sinar m PowerGrip can be attached to the bottom of the Sinar m by means of a rapid fastening screw. The rechargeable batteries housed in this PowerGrip provide ample energy so that longer shooting sessions can be performed comfortably without external power supplies. A built-in additional lockable release button also makes it possible to work ergonomically also in portrait format.
Sinar m with Nikon Lenses
Small Piture Format - Great Effect!
Don‘t sell those Nikon lenses yet! By using the 35 mm Mirror Module, the Sinar m camera can easily also be converted into a 35 mm single-lens-reflex camera that can be used with a large variety of Nikon lenses opening up a great range of focal lengths for your Sinarback that extends from extreme wide-angle to super telephoto lenses. Additional advantages of the modular Sinar m System: It features a signi.cantly larger image area than those of many digital small image single-lensre .ex cameras and it does not require the annoying focal length multiplying factors that have to be taken into account because of the smaller sensor formats in other cameras. In any case, the full 24 x 36 mm format is at your disposal – even larger, depending on the digital back and the lens that is being used. In this con.guration too, the resolving powers of digital backs and lenses remain in a balanced relationship that ensures the best possible imaging qualities.
Sinar m in the Sinar System
The Sinar m becomes a View Camera
The Sinar m also provides the photographer with a modern shutter system for the Sinar p3 view camera. The functions of the camera can be controlled from the Sinar m and also via the Sinar CaptureShop™ exposure software. The proven Sinaron Digital Lenses, built into the Sinar Electronic Aperture Control (CAB) mounts, can also be controlled by means of the operating elements of the Sinar m as well as via the exposure software. This represents a signi.cant advantage for the user, especially with an elevated camera position, as in reproduction applications. With shutter speeds up to 1/2000 second, the Sinar m is the fastest view camera shutter altogether. That, combined with the Sinar p3, makes the Sinar m the perfect system for everyday use in the studio and also on location.
Everything Under Your Control
Regardless of whether you happen to be positioned at your computer or at the camera, you always have your system under complete control. Every setting that you can make on the Sinar m can also be made by means of the Sinar CaptureShop™ exposure software (requires version 5.2 or higher). The camera system can thus be controlled entirely from the computer and CaptureShop reacts to virtually every input on the camera. Setting changes are synchronized between the computer and the camera, so that accidental operation is impossible. This logical and highly ef.cient integration is an incalculable advantage for the user that systems assembled with components from different manufacturers cannot offer at all or at best only incompletely.
With all that medium format stuff from 2004, this place is quickly morphing into the other Leica fora I left. :rolleyes:
What's next? Single-malt whiskey? Durian cakes?
Frank Granovski
12-21-2005, 12:56
Is SINAR a new ZEISS name? Where's the ZEISS LOGO? :(
BTW--there have been a few Tessar derivatives faster than 2.8, but only for SLRs--The Fujinon 55/2.2 and the Riconar 55/2.2.
yossarian, do you have the block diagrams or other references?
Even the real Tessar in C/Y mount isn't great at f/2.8 - look at the MTF. http://www.zeiss.com/de/photo/home_e.nsf/3187a822cd4605b7c125670900704e24/a82fe043bf31376bc12567a80044ee76/$FILE/Tessar%202,8_45_e.pdf
There is also 2 full stops of light fall-off wide-open.
Brian Sweeney
12-21-2005, 13:19
Zeiss lenses for Nikon cameras.
I guess that's fair.
I use Nikon lenses on my Contax.
Maybe they just want to get even, and it took them a really long time to plan revenge.
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 13:23
Is SINAR a new ZEISS name? Where's the ZEISS LOGO? :(
If you open the PDF inside the link MYSTERY SOLVED (http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/e_html/e_m.htm) the first picture is a Zeiss lense marked 0000001. The brochure and the 2 PDFs lay it all out. "Dont throw out those old Nikon lenses".
If I am reading this correct - this is a digital with and optional full 35mm format sensor back that is fully compatible with Nikkor F-mount lenses!
Am I reading this correct?
What do you think this baby is going to cost? I'm thinking 5-figures.
Frank Granovski
12-21-2005, 14:48
Who makes it? Cosina? :)
bobofish
12-21-2005, 14:49
Bryan,
I'm not going to ***-*** your discoveries at all, but I believe that Zeiss lens is in conjunction with the medium format prism for the Sinar M.
The Sinar M was recently developed as a wicked ueber camera to shoot medium format SLR, small format SLR w/Nikon lenses, autofocus and not, as well as as a view camera with either format, and I can't remember if 4x5 is on the list. It's one hell of a design, something that most people won't be able to figure out, much less afford, but a very very good product for a working pro, especially one working in product advertising, etc.
It certainly wouldn't be much of a step for Zeiss to make autofocus lenses these days, because autofocus technology has almost become a commodity with all the brands that have it...it isn't proprietary technology anymore.
With that said however, from my pale and non-expert understanding, Nikon and Canon, etc. do own proprietary autofocus technology which doesn't work on all lenses, unless you have the correct technology. That could be something that would make a potential Zeiss autofocus lens slightly incompatible with Nikon, or Canon cameras...an example would be Sigma's problems.
And by the way Frank G. for somebody who spends so much time online, you shoould well know that Sinar is not a Zeiss name. It's an old company with a very storied tradition of producing its own products.
And as far as Sony coming out with an F-mount digital, although that would be great, rather than a KM mount (all respect to Konica Minolta, but Minolta has never managed to be first tier) if it is true that Sony approached Nikon and Nikon turned them down, I think it would be doubtful that Sony would come out with an Fmount camera anyway.
It would simply create too much conflict and confusion in the market, and would create some deal of bad blood. It doesn't mean it's impossible, and it also doesn't mean that Nikon couldn't change their mind.
Nikon does have a history however of (rightly) considering themselves to be one of the top dogs in photography, and I doubt very severely that Nikon would let themselves simply become an OEM manufacturer for Sony, or anybody else's cameras. Fuji's and Leica's have never been real competitors for Nikon's core customer base, but Sony could really take away from Nikon's name. Until, and or unless Nikon comes out with a sensor, they're going to try to play the field as if they still are a direct competitor with Canon.
One thing's for sure though....It's a nightmare for camera people that Canon could kill off everybody else in the market, and they will be the only company that produces digital SLR's. The way the market's going, Medium format digital is a little bit of an anachronism, and companies like Mamiya, Hasselblad, etc. are probablly going to go the way of the dodo. We can all hope that once sensor technology matures, that new brands will spring up to fill the void created by a potential monopoly.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 14:50
MYSTERY SOLVED (http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/e_html/e_m.htm)
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_MF2.jpg
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_KB.jpg
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_MF_Explosion.jpg
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_System.jpg
Bryan,
Here's a larger version (http://www.sinar.ch/press/webpict/Sinar_m_MF_Explosion.jpg) of the third image. That's an 80mm f/2.8 Planar and that's not a Nikon F mount on the body. :confused:
R.J.
Mazurka: Are you suggesting a third "camera and" them? Camera & Coffee, Camera & Cheese .... no Camera & Single Malt?
I'm game!
With regard to bobofish's comments just above - remember the opening teaser is something like: "millions of SLR users are about to discover...."
Somehow I don't think this Sinar thing is targeting "millions" of prosumer SLR shooters.
I'm still sticking by my first thought that Cosina F-mounts (perhaps under special production controls) are going to be branded as Zeiss.
Brian Sweeney
12-21-2005, 15:05
> I doubt very severely that Nikon would let themselves simply become an OEM manufacturer for Sony, or anybody else's cameras.
They did this with their first generation Digital SLR's, teamed with "Fujix". Nikon made most of the camera, "Fujix" did the CCD and electronics. The camera was branded under Fujix and Nikon; the Nikon got the cool red racing stripe on the hand grip. Probably less than a 2,000 cameras made. It was also a full-frame camera, and works with AI and AF lenses. And it works with my SB-29, something the D series will not do.
http://dslrexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193
RJBender
12-21-2005, 15:14
The Sinar m System is now complete.
The modular Sinar System Establishes a New Dimension
At photokina 2002 SINAR AG presented the Sinar m, a trailblazing new element for its modular system. The product that was shown as a concept at that time has now been perfected into a professional camera system. It is the declared objective of the Sinar m System to provide the photographer with a maximum of flexibility. It is designed to make it possible to execute every assignment simply and expediently, with absolutely no compromises in quality. The heart of the Sinar m System is a module that consists of a focal plane shutter and fully electronically controlled operating elements. A range of accessories can quickly be attached with merely a few flicks of the wrist to tailor it to the job at hand. That makes it remarkably effective in every situation,
regardless of whether it is used as a view camera or as a compact camera. The high performance capability of current and future systems requires an extremely precise camera and lens technology. Only with that high level of precision can the performance capability of modern sensors with smaller pixel sizes on the same surface area be utilized effectively while still achieving the required data quality. Compromises in precision add up to significant losses in quality, which is why the investment in a high-resolution digital back can only be justified in conjunction with appropriately precise camera systems. Because of the smaller pixels of modern sensors, this fact has to be taken into account increasingly. An autofocus feature that works with the precision of a Swiss watch movement and with a speed that is among the fastest in its class is available in conjunction with the Sinaron Digital AF Mirror Module and the Sinaron Digital AF lenses from Carl Zeiss. The photographer is free to devote his undivided attention to the subject because a high-grade exposure metering system with several metering modes is available, along with various automatic exposure modes as well as a TTL flash exposure control. Lenses that were designed specifically for digital photography with the Sinar m ensure, among other advantages, high resolution and the best contrast rendition all the way to the edges of the image circle.The mirror module also makes it possible to use a variety of Hasselblad lenses of the V-Series. Focusing and setting the aperture have to be performed manually, but the exposure- and the focus-metering systems of the mirror module can be used in a supporting function. When the 35 mm mirror module is used, various Nikon lenses can be attached. that greatly expands the versatility of the Sinarback digital backs because of the extensive selection of lenses with different focal lengths that range from extreme wide-angle lenses to super telephoto lenses. Because of the oversize CCD sensors in Sinarback digital backs, the full 24 x 36 mm format can be utilized, possibly even more, depending on the digital back and the lens that is being used.
The well-proven Sinar p3 View Camera can be enhanced even further by means of the Sinar m System. Attached to a Sinar p3 View Camera, the Sinar m functions as a modern shutter system that can be controlled via the display on the camera and also by means of CaptureShop Software on a computer. With its shutter speeds of up to 1/2000 second, the Sinar m is the fastest view camera shutter on the market. The Sinar m System is equipped perfectly for the future and it is compatible with all Sinarback models. Thus the Sinar m System is exactly the right product for all professional photographers who demand the greatest possible quality in every photographic assignment and situation.
Source: http://www.sinar.ch/press/release/051124PM_Sinar_m_english.pdf
R.J.
waterlenz
12-21-2005, 15:15
Why do people keep having trouble reading my posts, or even Mike's? :rolleyes:
It's the Icarex camera that's a Voigtlander design.
The context of this thread is LENSES, not cameras! I suggest you re-read the post leading to my previous reply. :rolleyes:
Well, that looks cheap! I'll get two so I can have a backup body. I certaily will add the accessory Sinar P2. I guess that is it for film!
Actually, Sinar has a sharp design there. It will be very good for a commercial studio. And it is quite an engineering feat.
The context of this thread is LENSES, not cameras! I suggest you re-read the post leading to my previous reply. :rolleyes:
I think I know who started this thread. Do you?
And how do you propose we talk about those particular lenses without mentioning what cameras (Contarex and Icarex) they were made for? :confused:
The Sinar M is not likely the item that Zeiss is talking about. Sinar is a view camera company who does some very nice stuff, but that Sinar M is going to be over 20,000 dollars for the digital back alone...not exactly something you are going to sell millions of. Probably hundreds to low thousands, and if they are lucky tens of thousands. It seems pretty clear that Zeiss is talking about Zeiss lenses for F mount...that is what the leaked images were, right?
RJBender
12-21-2005, 16:10
The Sinar M is not likely the item that Zeiss is talking about. Sinar is a view camera company who does some very nice stuff, but that Sinar M is going to be over 20,000 dollars for the digital back alone...not exactly something you are going to sell millions of. Probably hundreds to low thousands, and if they are lucky tens of thousands. It seems pretty clear that Zeiss is talking about Zeiss lenses for F mount...that is what the leaked images were, right?
Carl Zeiss Presents ZF!
....as in zee F mount. :D
Very nice use of pastries, don't you agree? It's like they're telling us "Here are some pastries to drool over while we get the lenses ready to roll out." :p :D :) LOL
Darkavenger start the fire!
R.J.
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF02grossen/$File/02_top_en.jpg
If you go back and look at this image:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15809
you'll see a Planar mounted on a Nikon F6.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 16:33
I wonder if that's a Zeiss lens hood for the Planar on the right?? :confused:
What is the URL for the page with that image, Jason?
R.J.
What is the URL for the page with that image, Jason?
R.J.
http://www.photim.net/nci/photo.php3?Code=20051220103859Marmotte06&O=1
Here's a low res of all the "hints":
http://contaxinfo.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=2
More than just the 45, although not a lot more; there's a 500mm P lens from 1998, I guess when they couldn't figure out how to get the motors to move that much glass fast enough. Now, as for details, I'm guessing that they're going to be at least P type lenses because so many Nikon bodies won't meter properly without the CPU contacts--but I'm not sure whether Cosina has any manufacturing experience with such a lens, which might mean it'll just end up being AI-s.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 16:45
I don't think Nikon is going to sit back and let Zeiss use photos of Nikon bodies to sell Zeiss glass. Look at the magazine ads for third party lenses... the brand names on the bodies are never shown.
R.J.
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 17:11
If you look through the material on the SINAR system you will see it has a NIKON F modual so all NIKON F mount lenses can be used with it. ZEISS has already released its MEDIUM FORMAT manual lenses for the HASSY and they are compatible with the SINAR digital system. Now they will release the SMALL FORMAT 35mm ZF series of manual F mount lenses and everybody wins. The second photo in the line up is clearly a small format DIGITAL SLR where as the top is a Medium Format SLR. The second camera doesnt appear to have any markings on the lense. The most interesting thing about the system is the lack of special lenses for a digital format and the modular componets of the SLR system. I find it very appealing, The fousing concept of moving the digital sensor instead of moving glass. What I expect next is a street version of this focusing system in a Digital SLR body. Maybe Sony will produce it.
The ZF lenses will appeal to many and can be used as a retro manual on a FM2 or can be used on the newest digital camera system available. No Limets with a Future.
http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/kamera/Bilder/Sinar_m_KB.jpg
Sinar m with Nikon Lenses
Small Piture Format - Great Effect!
Don‘t sell those Nikon lenses yet! By using the 35 mm Mirror Module, the Sinar m camera can easily also be converted into a 35 mm single-lens-reflex camera that can be used with a large variety of Nikon lenses opening up a great range of focal lengths for your Sinarback that extends from extreme wide-angle to super telephoto lenses
Something old, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue
RJBender
12-21-2005, 17:15
Did they just add a cherry or did I not see it this morning? Strangely, it appears to be smiling. :D http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/KVHomepageZF02en/$File/02_key_en.jpg
I hope that's sugar on that piece of fruit and not drool. :p
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9?Open
R.J.
Uncle Bill
12-21-2005, 17:16
As a PR student, I can't believe the effect of the drip, drip, drip tactic of press releases. The level of frenzy on a site dedicated to rangefinders on the introduction of a lens system from one grand old optics company to be compatible with another grand old company's camera systems. This is powerfull. If it is a launch of Carl Zeiss lenses with Nikon F mount. All I can say is wow, this totally changes my purchasing plans for the next 4 years. Now it will be a used FM3 and 3 prime CZ lenses.
Bill
waterlenz
12-21-2005, 17:17
I think I know who started this thread. Do you?
A simple matter of clicking on the first page, are you able to?
And how do you propose we talk about those particular lenses without mentioning what cameras (Contarex and Icarex) they were made for? :confused:
The Contarex dates back to the 60's and possibly the 50's (My Zeiss Compendium is inconveniently located 5000 miles from me right now to check the exact year, but recall the bullseye a.k.a cyclops model - nickname according to country) I believe pre-dating the Icarex, thus the lens style being used for the current Voigtlaender SLR lenses originated with the Zeiss Ikon Contarex per my orginal statement. :angel:
waterlenz
12-21-2005, 17:24
I don't think Nikon is going to sit back and let Zeiss use photos of Nikon bodies to sell Zeiss glass. Look at the magazine ads for third party lenses... the brand names on the bodies are never shown.
R.J.
I hope you are right! Maybe this will serve as a wake-up call and they will develop some new high-quality primes! Both C and N are lacking in the WA department for their dSLRs IMHO. If Leica, or more likely the company developing their sensor, is able to solve the oblique ray problem, their superb M WA's could fill in where N and C have failed.
Tom :D
RJBender
12-21-2005, 17:39
[COLOR=YellowGreen]
If you look through the material on the SINAR system you will see it has a NIKON F modual so all NIKON F mount lenses can be used with it. ZEISS has already released its MEDIUM FORMAT manual lenses for the HASSY and they are compatible with the SINAR digital system. Now they will release the SMALL FORMAT 35mm ZF series of manual F mount lenses and everybody wins. The second photo in the line up is clearly a small format DIGITAL SLR where as the top is a Medium Format SLR. The second camera doesnt appear to have any markings on the lense.
Bryan, I can read "ED" in this larger image (http://www.sinar.ch/press/webpict/Sinar_m_KB.jpg).
R.J.
Well here's two thoughts to ponder"
1) Hey, Joe, see we're 11 pages in and still playing nice in the sandbox - guess we have our "holiday manners" in control.
2) Why have we spent 11 pages (and counting) taliking about SLR lenses on RFF?
OOPS!
RJBender
12-21-2005, 17:49
Well here's two thoughts to ponder"
1) Hey, Joe, see we're 11 pages in and still playing nice in the sandbox - guess we have our "holiday manners" in control.
2) Why have we spent 11 pages (and counting) taliking about SLR lenses on RFF?
OOPS!
George,
Jorge's cool with it.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14952
R.J.
Bryan Lee
12-21-2005, 18:00
RJ, Its all good, I havent had this much fun since the RD1 came out and were all guessing how much it would cost. Merry Christmas and Cheese.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 18:18
The Contarex dates back to the 60's and possibly the 50's (My Zeiss Compendium is inconveniently located 5000 miles from me right now to check the exact year, but recall the bullseye a.k.a cyclops model - nickname according to country) I believe pre-dating the Icarex, thus the lens style being used for the current Voigtlaender SLR lenses originated with the Zeiss Ikon Contarex per my orginal statement. :angel:
Pacific Rim Camera has some information on the Contarex here (http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/buy/zeiss/contarex/contarex.htm).
R.J.
Bryan -- there is no doubting that the Sinar M is cool, but do you think it will be even a blip on the radar of the new F mount Zeiss lenses? The body alone is 6500 dollars, and then you need to buy a 35mm mirror box for it and a 20,000 dollar back before you can even buy a lens. So we are talking around 30,000 dollars before you buy a lens for it. Certainly, I think it is a cool camera and a great idea, but I doubt it has ANYTHING to do with the announcement of the new CZ lenses other than coincidence and fortuitous timing...
Bryan, I can read "ED" in this larger image (http://www.sinar.ch/press/webpict/Sinar_m_KB.jpg).
R.J.
That's a 17-35/2.8 ED-IF AF-S
http://nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1960
As a PR student, I can't believe the effect of the drip, drip, drip tactic of press releases. The level of frenzy on a site dedicated to rangefinders on the introduction of a lens system from one grand old optics company to be compatible with another grand old company's camera systems. This is powerfull.
It has definitely created a stir, not just here, but on other forums as well. Has any one noticed that there's been nearly 14,000 views of this thread?
George,
Jorge's cool with it.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14952
R.J.
RJ,
Oh yes, I know.
This is actually a whole lot of fun. A bunch of photographers "groping in the dark" over a 'teaser' web advert.
Goes to show that we're all a bunch of gossipers at heart! :D
Funny thing is that now, whatever the "real news" is - it will be a "ho hum". Like the one fellow above who works in PR said - Zeiss is doing a "drip, drip, drip...".
I still can't wait to find out who's guess it right!.
And, BTW, can you believe the number of "hits" to this thread? What a great "plug" for RF and RFF.
WOW!!! :cool:
RJBender
12-21-2005, 18:51
One of RFF's sponsors has these in stock. :D
http://www.cameraquest.com/Voigt%20SL.htm
R.J.
I'm still sticking by my first thought that Cosina F-mounts (perhaps under special production controls) are going to be branded as Zeiss.Zeiss has its own designs with its own name-branding that actually have relevance to the optics, and customers count on that reputation and credibility. I just cannot see why Carl Zeiss would employ "label engineering" to paste their famous names on some other company's lenses.
Formerly, Carl Zeiss lenses have been made in Japan at the Tomioka plant owned by Kyocera. Those were not Yashica lenses, but Zeiss lenses. That arrangement is now past and the plant is closed. A different series of Carl Zeiss lenses for RF cameras is now made in cooperation with Cosina. It certainly seems reasonable that this arrangement may be expanded to produce Zeiss lenses for other purposes. But re-branding Cosina's lenses with Zeiss names? No way... :)
RJBender
12-21-2005, 19:05
RJ,
Oh yes, I know.
This is actually a whole lot of fun. A bunch of photographers "groping in the dark" over a 'teaser' web advert.
Goes to show that we're all a bunch of gossipers at heart! :D
Funny thing is that now, whatever the "real news" is - it will be a "ho hum". Like the one fellow above who works in PR said - Zeiss is doing a "drip, drip, drip...".
I still can't wait to find out who's guess it right!.
And, BTW, can you believe the number of "hits" to this thread? What a great "plug" for RF and RFF.
WOW!!! :cool:
All they have to do is "leak" some images on their websites to the right people and get free publicity. Why spend € advertising in magazines?
R.J.
One of RFF's sponsors has these in stock. :D
http://www.cameraquest.com/Voigt%20SL.htm
R.J.
RJ,
Yes, I was looking again at the site earlier today. Before this thread -how many folks really knew that Cosina made F-mount SLR lenses?
Very few.
The Cosina/Zeiss deal for the Ikon body was a first step. It's led to rebranding the Cosina M-mount lenses as Zeiss ZM.
Now, the next "shoe drops" and Cosina F-mounts are re-branded as Zeiss.
BTW: I have a couple of CV lenses for my Nikon S2 - they make very fine glass - although they don't generally have "fast" lenses.
Zeiss has picked a good partner to initiate its foray into SLR lenses. But, truth be told, with both the Ikon body and now the F-mount lenses they are "outsourcing their brand" via licensing.
If I were a shareholder of Zeiss I'd be thrilled. I suspect that the "true believers" of the Zeiss "zeitgieist" are less enamored.
Oh well, que sera, sera.....
Regards,
George
thus the lens style being used for the current Voigtlaender SLR lenses originated with the Zeiss Ikon Contarex per my orginal statement. :angel:
So the decision to adopt the style didn't originate from Mr Kobayashi's direction after all? Would you expect Cosina to do so for their Voigtlander-brand if the German Voigtlander-designed Icarex did not sport this style on their lenses? ;)
BTW, how dare you mention cameras in your own post, let alone 35mm film cameras! :p
I guess at least 80% of all medium focal-length lenses also "originate from" the Planar, Tessar and Sonnar/Ernostar designs, including those from Zeiss' arch-rival Leica and even today's AF versions. I wonder why we hardly mention that fact? :D
bobofish
12-21-2005, 19:32
Copake Ham,
While I disagree with one of your points, I firmly agree with the other.
Cosina is not simply making rebranded lenses and RF bodies...Zeiss developed the Ikon and provided the formulas and specs to the lenses. Since Zeiss has no manufacturing capability for cameras anymore, they have to have somebody build it for them to spec...it's a whole different ball game than Cosina using Voigtlaender's name. Those Zeiss M lenses are for all intents and purposes Zeiss lenses, simply made in Japan by a non Zeiss factory. I don't think many people would argue that a Nikon FM3 is not a Nikon simply because it's not made by Nikon. (or is that another model I'm thinking of?)
However, I agree fully that when companies have other companies make their products, it seems like a cop-out. Apple doesn't make Apple computers, they only design them, so they have a measure of "not our fault" added to the mix when things go wrong. Personal responsibility and quality above profit are not big factors in the modern business world.
For some reason, people have decided that sending factories to China, or even factories in Japan which have only marginally lower labor costs, is a good, and acceptable thing. In the end, it will destroy the economies of the West, while providing share-holder earnings in the short term.
After all, why did Henry Ford decide to pay his workers significantly above market wage, way back when? Anybody who knows about Ford knows that it wasn't out of pure human benevolence...it was a way to increase worker productivity and efficiency, while at the same time guaranteeing a market.
But that's an argument that will be largely a waste of time for us to have here, because unless you and I have a few billion to invest in a purely Western company, the decisions are not ours.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 19:34
This reminds me of the time when Cosina was releasing information on their Japanese website about their new Voigtlander Bessa. Bob Shell was still at Shutterbug and he had never of it. I can't comment on Marc James Small's reaction to a made in Japan Voigtlander. :p
R.J.
FM3 is not a Nikon simply because it's not made by Nikon. (or is that another model I'm thinking of?)
That's FM10 you're talking about. Contrary to assertions by Leica zealots, the FM3A (or at least a large part of it) is hand-made just like their anachronistic M (which I also happen to own.) I got the pictures to prove it but that's another thread in another forum.
Bobo's right about the Zeiss Ikon range being Zeiss products. What would anyone call the BMW X3 but a BMW, even though it is made in Austria by a contractor the way the ZI is?
RJBender
12-21-2005, 20:26
Zeiss has its own designs with its own name-branding that actually have relevance to the optics, and customers count on that reputation and credibility. I just cannot see why Carl Zeiss would employ "label engineering" to paste their famous names on some other company's lenses.
Formerly, Carl Zeiss lenses have been made in Japan at the Tomioka plant owned by Kyocera. Those were not Yashica lenses, but Zeiss lenses. That arrangement is now past and the plant is closed. A different series of Carl Zeiss lenses for RF cameras is now made in cooperation with Cosina. It certainly seems reasonable that this arrangement may be expanded to produce Zeiss lenses for other purposes. But re-branding Cosina's lenses with Zeiss names? No way... :)
Doug, from 1976-81 Rollei was producing the SL35E and SL35M (reincarnated Zeiss Icarex) in Singapore. Rollei was also producing 50mm f/1.8 HFT Planar and 135mm f/4 HFT Tele-Tessar lenses at their plant in Singapore. The lenses don't have the Zeiss name on them... just Planar and Tele-Tessar.
R.J.
RJBender
12-21-2005, 20:33
... and the SL35 was made in Germany and Singapore. I've heard that the Rollei Planars and Tele-Tessars are Zeiss designs, however the demand is for equipment made in Germany.
R.J.
paulfitz
12-21-2005, 22:17
You can still purchase a new 50mm f/1.2 AIS mount from B&H. I think this is the fastest in current production. There is also a 28mm 1.4 AF mount.
paulfitz
12-21-2005, 22:19
Sorry, that post makes no sense - someone asked earlier what the fastest lens was.
HFT and T* are basically the same thing. Both are Zeiss inventions. http://www.dantestella.com/zeiss/coatings.html
Bryan Lee
12-22-2005, 01:40
Bryan -- there is no doubting that the Sinar M is cool, but do you think it will be even a blip on the radar of the new F mount Zeiss lenses? The body alone is 6500 dollars, and then you need to buy a 35mm mirror box for it and a 20,000 dollar back before you can even buy a lens. So we are talking around 30,000 dollars before you buy a lens for it. Certainly, I think it is a cool camera and a great idea, but I doubt it has ANYTHING to do with the announcement of the new CZ lenses other than coincidence and fortuitous timing...
The SINAR M is a 22 megapixal high dollar version. I believe it will be revealed in the ZF line of lenses this new technology was considered in their design which will make them relevant for future digital useage. Im guessing there will also be a body released with it just as the IKON and the M lenses. The key to all of this is digital and the way the SINAR M captures digital images. This could easily be scaled down and mass produced at say 10 megapixels there by offeing millions of consumers a new product with optional lenses. Why all this on a rangefiner forum?
Well here is a easy prediction for me to make. The IKON D. The new lenses on the IKON are manual focused lenses most likely tweaked in design for this new digital technology which can easily be used in a rangefinder. The RD is already a year old and maybe Epson isnt ready to take it to the next level. I dont think many Leica users would realy be comfortable putting thair lenses on a Epson body anyway but a ZEISS digital body, FORGET ABOUT IT, They would be waiting in line all night at the camera shop like kids for a new Star Wars movie.
Huck Finn
12-22-2005, 07:16
The SINAR M is a 22 megapixal high dollar version. I believe it will be revealed in the ZF line of lenses this new technology was considered in their design which will make them relevant for future digital useage. Im guessing there will also be a body released with it just as the IKON and the M lenses. The key to all of this is digital and the way the SINAR M captures digital images. This could easily be scaled down and mass produced at say 10 megapixels there by offeing millions of consumers a new product with optional lenses. Why all this on a rangefiner forum?
Well here is a easy prediction for me to make. The IKON D. The new lenses on the IKON are manual focused lenses most likely tweaked in design for this new digital technology which can easily be used in a rangefinder. The RD is already a year old and maybe Epson isnt ready to take it to the next level. I dont think many Leica users would realy be comfortable putting thair lenses on a Epson body anyway but a ZEISS digital body, FORGET ABOUT IT, They would be waiting in line all night at the camera shop like kids for a new Star Wars movie.
Bryan, I think you make some very interesting points. The Sinar can simply represent the expensive R&D for new variations on the emerging technology. As I recall, the first Nikon digital of any kind 8 or 10 years ago cost $10,000. If the Sinar technology can be adapted to other uses, this can be the "open, sesame" to sensor quality that Zeiss has said that they've been looking for. It would certainly make sense that Zeiss knows a lot more than those of us on the outside do about what projects are in the works that will emerge on the futures market in coming months & years. It could be very interesting.
Huck Finn
12-22-2005, 07:27
The Cosina/Zeiss deal for the Ikon body was a first step. It's led to rebranding the Cosina M-mount lenses as Zeiss ZM.
Now, the next "shoe drops" and Cosina F-mounts are re-branded as Zeiss.
Zeiss has picked a good partner to initiate its foray into SLR lenses. But, truth be told, with both the Ikon body and now the F-mount lenses they are "outsourcing their brand" via licensing.
George,
It's a shame to see this kind of misinformation disseminated on the internet long after it seemed that such nonsense had been put to bed.
1. There is not a single lens in the ZM line that was developed by Cosina & then re-branded with the Zeiss name.
2. The new ZF lenses will not include a single lens that was formerly sold as a Cosina F-mount lens.
3. Cosina does not own a license for any Zeiss brand products. Some other companies, like Rollei, do produce Zeiss designs under license from Carl Zeiss AG, but Cosina isn't one of them.
The ZM lenses are proprietary Zeiss designs re-engineered by Zeiss engineers, spec'd for production by Zeiss, made to Zeiss quality control standards, inspected & tested before release for Zeiss quality assurance, & warranteed by Zeiss to the customer.
Bryan Lee
12-22-2005, 07:37
Bryan, I think you make some very interesting points. The Sinar can simply represent the expensive R&D for new variations on the emerging technology. As I recall, the first Nikon digital of any kind 8 or 10 years ago cost $10,000. If the Sinar technology can be adapted to other uses, this can be the "open, sesame" to sensor quality that Zeiss has said that they've been looking for. It would certainly make sense that Zeiss knows a lot more than those of us on the outside do about what projects are in the works that will emerge on the futures market in coming months & years. It could be very interesting.
I dont have a RD1 but I follow what people say about it and one of the chief complaints Ive heard is the way the image transfers from the lense to the sensor/scanner. Being able to move a ajustable digital film back could resolve this issue. Think about it this way, A SPEED GRAPHIC with all the controls on the rear of the camera and a heavy duty stationary lense mount on the front. Then it doesnt matter what you put on the front you can just ajust the rear for highest resolution.
George,
It's a shame to see this kind of misinformation disseminated on the internet long after it seemed that such nonsense had been put to bed....
3. Cosina does not own a license for any Zeiss brand products. Some other companies, like Rollei, do produce Zeiss designs under license from Carl Zeiss AG, but Cosina isn't one of them.
Who makes the new Zeiss Ikon?
Enough.
This thread has become stale. It's a nice sunny day here in NYC (Sunny 16!) and I want to go shoot some pics at lunchtime with my Cosina/Voighlander/Bessa R2S (which uses a Nikon RF mout). :D
Huck Finn
12-22-2005, 08:03
Who makes the new Zeiss Ikon?
Enough.
The issue was whether it is made under license. It is not.
Who makes the ZI? This project has been a collaboration between Cosina & Carl Zeiss AG & it is a product which Zeiss owns & retains the rights to. It is assembled by workers at a Cosina factory, but that is different than saying it is "made by Cosina."
Aha, and a Corvette is a rebranded Daewoo?
A Porsche Boxter a rebranded Valmet whatever?
An Apple Powerbook a rebrandet Dell and an Apple iBook a rebrandedt Asus .....
The issue was whether it is made under license. It is not.
Who makes the ZI? This project has been a collaboration between Cosina & Carl Zeiss AG & it is a product which Zeiss owns & retains the rights to. It is assembled by workers at a Cosina factory, but that is different than saying it is "made by Cosina."
As the saying goes: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - then, by golly, it IS a duck!" :bang:
http://www.zeissikon.com/faq.htm
Q: Who developed the ZI camera?
A: CZ, in collaboration with the design bureau Henssler & Schultheiss and the camera maker Cosina.
Q: Why Cosina?
A: Cosina today is one of the most experienced manufacturers of rangefinder type cameras.
Q: Who manufactures the Carl Zeiss T* ZM-mount lenses?
A: 2 types are manufactured by Carl Zeiss in Oberkochen, 5 types are manufactured by Cosina in Japan.
Who cares? Have you actually seen the Zeiss Ikon and/or the lenses? They are phenomenal. I use an MP and an M7 with summilux ASPH's, and I was impressed enough to buy the 21mm and 25mm lenses while I was in Japan. The build quality is fantastic, the results are phenomenal, and I could get both lenses with finders and a 21/25 hood for less than the cost of the either the Leica 21 or 24mm lens. Now, you still need Leica if you want the speed, but from a pragmatist's perspective, the ZI lenses are a no brainer for the 25mm and wider lenses. Many of these "budget" manufacturers are capable of turning out a product every bit as good as their top shelf competition, but it does not make sense for them to, as they don't have the brand position. Look at Konica, they are older than Kodak and have made some good cameras, but they were never really considered top of the line. But then they come out with the Hexar AF and Hexar RF that really pushed the envelope for their respective markets. But as others have said, these are entirely Zeiss designed. What Cosina was not capable of doing (machinery tolerances etc), they are doing in Germany.
But anyway, whatever. I think there is a difference between a camera and lens system that is done entirely in house, but it is more of an aesthetic difference than a practical one. The world is so deep into globalization at this point that you cannot tell me that the "made in Germany" cameras are made entirely of German components -- you are going to have Chinese, Taiwanese or Korean electronics, a shutter curtain from the Swiss, metals sourced from Africa and Eurasia, leather from South America etc etc etc. For Leica, certain parts are made in Portugal. It really is a fantasy to believe any "Made in X" things any more...at least for complex items.
Brian Sweeney
12-22-2005, 09:32
So everybody pretty much agress that Zeiss is not coming out with more S-Mount lenses?
Too bad. It would have been easier than F-Mount; new RF lenses are all built to the Leica 51.6mm standard and would just have to use the mount that Cosina already made.
And it would have been less competition. Nikon does not sell S-Mount lenses without an expensive camera attached to them. And they only make two focal lengths. The Cosina S-Mount lenses were all good sellers, no competition except from the almost 50 year old stuff. Loads of F-Mount lenses around, and on the used market lots of low prices on good lenses. I bought a 55mm F3.5 Micro-Nikkor in F-Mount for $25. Try that in S-Mount.
Maybe they'll come around. S-Mount. Then, the Contax IV.
wlewisiii
12-22-2005, 10:18
Maybe they'll come around. S-Mount. Then, the Contax IV.
Amen, Brother, Amen!
:angel:
William
Too bad. It would have been easier than F-Mount; new RF lenses are all built to the Leica 51.6mm standard and would just have to use the mount that Cosina already made.
Maybe they'll come around. S-Mount. Then, the Contax IV.
...and repeat Nippon Kogaku's folly, making it incompatible with the Zeiss Ikon Contax from last century? I don't think so. :p
Brian Sweeney
12-22-2005, 13:45
Two position Rangefinder Cam. Why didn't Nikon think of that???
Two position Rangefinder Cam. Why didn't Nikon think of that???
Good thinking, but what would be the cost?
You know, 50-year-old Canons had built-in RF/VF with variable-magnifcation, something the Leica M doesn't have even to this very day. But of course, Zeiss is in no danger of being extinct. ;)
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