View Full Version : Russian/Ukrainian rangefinders
PhotoJim
07-29-2003, 10:24
Is there enough demand to warrant a separate forum for Russian (Fed, Zorki) and Ukrainian (Kiev) rangefinder cameras? There was an excellent one at delphi but it no longer exists.
bmattock
07-29-2003, 10:27
I have a Zorki 4K, and would enjoy such a forum!
I will be rearranging the layout in a couple of weeks after all of the topics get established. Once I do this, you will probably see some different categories.
bmattock
07-29-2003, 10:31
And while we're at it, what about all the classic rangefinders from the 40's through the early 70's? I love my Yashica Electro GSN, my Braun Super Paxette II, and all the others that I have fun collecting and shooting! Canonet, Fujica, Super Baldina, anyone? I even have a 1970's era Fujica G690 with interchangeable lenses!
It would be fun to have a vintage rangefinder forum. I've got a Kodak Bantam Special. I've taken a few reasonable pictures with it but the rangefinder really needs adjustment. Anyone have a clue where I should send it, or whether I could do it myself
PhotoJim
07-30-2003, 12:39
Originally posted by bmattock
I have a Zorki 4K, and would enjoy such a forum!
I have a 4K too - plus a Zorki 4 and Fed 2 and 5c - the last three are all in transit to Russia as we speak. I have a 55/2.8 Industar-61, 50/3.5 collapsible Industar-50 and 35/2.8 Jupiter-12 also.
A proud FED 2 owner too. And while writing this, a Zorki 3M and a Jupiter-12 are coming from Ukraine... :)
I have as well, three FSU rangefinders (two different Keiv 4's and a Zorki 4k) on the way back to the Motherland, to Oleg for repair. I can't get the flash sync to reliably work. Of course, the black one I bought from Michael Fourman in Atlanta had to go back- it's flash sync worked fine, but the shutter was tilted so it wouldn't work at high speeds...
But the images, of course, are wonderful, from all these little beasts.
I finally got the Zorki 3M with a Jupiter-8 50 mm f2.0 last week and took it with me on a trip. I'm very impressed for the construction quality of this machine. Although the Fed2 is a really nice camera, it seems the 3M is on a different level, at least that's what you feel when it's in your hands.
I'll judge better when getting the results of the Fuji Velvia I ran trough it, but the pre-picture phase was really fun (albeit you're reading from a folk that enjoys shooting even with a Lubitel :)
This is not to blame the Fed2, which I really like a lot and in fact is so well designed that it simply becomes an extension of you while taking pictures, but to praise the Zorki 3M instead...
Maybe we should delete this thread, or prices of these wonderful FSU instruments will go up soon ! :D
BTW, I hope they keep working properly for a long time (as they are doing now). Can't speak about flash sync 'cos I haven't used it since I left using a Nikon 401s with built-in flash.
Regards,
I sent back a Kiev 4 to Michael Fourman for replacement- it was the only Kiev 4 I had (I've three) which had working flash sync, but the shutter was cockeyed- enough that the exposure at 1/500-1/1250 was very un-even across a negative. Last night I got the replacement, which today will be in the mail- after 10 test shots (and testing the flash sync) the shutter froze.
My luck with FSU camera equipment is very (VERY!) poor.
I dearly love the images I get from the cameras- all the lenses are wonderful and very complimentary with their subject, at the same time their sharpness shows through. I just can't get a working camera body. The '88CM went back twice before replace with a Hartblei, and I already explained the (now 5) not working Kiev bodies. I didn't yet mention the Zorki 4 that doesn't work...
Ah, well. Someday.
SolaresLarrave
08-29-2003, 08:31
I got scared from buying this kind of cameras when I checked a website by a guy in the Philippines, describing all the pains he took in maintaining and repairing his Zorkis and Feds. Now I regret not having bought one. Where or from whom did you guys get yours? Are the Ukrainian eBay vendors reliable?
You might check out this site http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/news.htm
You will be buying things from a place in the Ukraine but paying for it will be done through a company located in Ohio.
I recently purchased a Fed 5 using this method and everything worked out fine. The camera came by means of registered mail which meant that since no one was home, I had to go to the post office and pick it up.
The package was wrapped in loose paper, something to do with postal and custom regulations, tied shut with cord.
Hi,
I don't know if it's a question of luck, but I think I've been pretty lucky with the FSU cameras I've bought, all of them trough the internet (they are priced 2 or 3 times more here in Spain, and believe me, they are not improved models, cleaned at most).
My first FSU camera was a Lubitel 166 Universal (http://www.upcnet.es/~org/htm/main_l166u.htm) I bought after doing a pretty fast Google search here (http://www.sovietcamera.com.ua/). A couple of years back, the web was not so "professional" and prices were lower. It was $45, shipment included. A bit expensive for what it is, but well inverted money, since I've enjoyed this camera a lot, and some of her pictures are between my favourites. Also, the camera came in excellent condition, all it needed was a superficial cleaning.
After that, I didn't follow the FSU camera market anymore until the ZorkiFed bug bite me.
I acquired my FED-2 from a seller mentioned
in this great site (http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis), and it resulted to be a success too ! the camera only needed a cleaning again, and after that it worked and looked perfectly. It even came with a simple but operational Leningrad-2 meter as a gift ! It was $30 this time, and about $10 more for shipment.
Later, after a bit more research, I focused my attention on the Zorki 3M, that from what I read, is one of the most fine and well-made FSU Leica copies... This time I did a complete blind eBay search. I found one that looked pretty well, the seller had good ratings (although I think you can't really trust them that much...). Well, to sum up, it resulted to be another success. After the cleaning, it works and looks excellent ! I ran some Velvia 50 trough it during my last holidays in Mochales (Guadalajara) (http://www.mochales.net), and results with the Jupiter-8 were as good as that ones with my Minolta 50 mm f1.7.
And finally, my last acquisition has been a Jupiter-12 35 mm wide angle lens I bought again trough eBay. This time, I got it from the same seller of the FED-2, altough it wasn't from the web store, but from the auction site instead. It was described as mint, and that's exactly what I got, a mint (it looks unused) lens.
So... to sum up. I recommend you to look for minty items, and if possible, with a return warranty (some sellers offer it with all their items). Also, try not to risk too much money. I usually say that if you really need the money, then don't risk it there, and try to fix a limit, mine is around 50 EUR. This way, if you get a lemon, you won't loose too much...
This is my experience in this matter. As I said, I think I've been pretty lucky, but remember that you are always exposed to receive a lemon, and that's not the end of the world, you can always repair it, or at worst, weight some papers with it ;)
But if you get a decent one, the results and the fun they provide surpass by far the amount of money you pay for them.
I hope this helps you ! :)
By the way, only mention that I'm not connected in any way with any of the sellers I post here, and I'm sure that there are a lot more sellers out there, and that a google search will help you more than I did ;)
The "guy in the Philippines" is Jay Javier who maintains an excellent FSU camera information and repair site. Jay's speciality is Zorki 1 and FED 1 rangefinders (Leica II copies). One of the biggest problems with these older cameras is cracked shutter curtains. Jay talked me through replacing the curtains on a Zorki 1C and I have done several others since. The later Zorkis and FEDs are a little more complicated but I know several people who take them apart and put them back together on a regular basis. The most difficult camera to fix is the Kiev (Contax II copy). It is a much more complicated design--especially the vertical shutter.
The FED-2 and J-12 seller usually indicates state of shutter curtains, and indicates it when they have been replaced by new ones. It was a detail that I liked...
There are some pages out there with tips about how to repair holes in shutter curtains. Small pinholes should be easy, but if they are cracked they need further work...
Web stores usually do a CLA of their cameras before selling them, and use to offer a return/repair warranty, so they are good places to start getting these cameras, but of course, prices use to be higher...
Also, the envelopes and packages are a bit odd, but never had a problem with them, they are packed carefully enough.
Oh... just one more thing ! don't miss the russian leather smell ! Once you open one of these packages you'll never forget it ! ;)
Originally posted by SolaresLarrave
I got scared from buying this kind of cameras when I checked a website by a guy in the Philippines, describing all the pains he took in maintaining and repairing his Zorkis and Feds. Now I regret not having bought one. Where or from whom did you guys get yours? Are the Ukrainian eBay vendors reliable?
Would that have been Jay Javier's site? No reason to get scared off from the russky-cams because of Jay; he's just very knowledgeable and takes pains to make his cameras 'right.' Lots of (us) SovCam users are tinkerers, too, and there's a lot of satisfaction in tweaking a '40's or '50's photoapparat until its operates like new (or better). Actually, they're easier to work on than most r'finder cameras... - jim
wierdcollector
10-16-2003, 06:11
I must be one of the lucky few, I've bought a Zorki 4, Fed4a, Fed 5b, Fed5c, and Fed2 all with no problems in nice working shape. Now if we're talking Zenits from US sellers, don't get me started on rip offs.
I have a Fed-5 which I have had good results with so far but was interested in augmenting it with something like a Jupiter 11 135mm lens or a Helios 85mm.
To do this, do I also need to find some sort of viewfinder adapter so that the rangefinder will still function?
Thanks!
back alley
11-08-2003, 11:05
hey davin, welcome to the forum!
to all,
i'm thinking of bidding for a russian leica copy, could use some advice as to which model would be the 'best' to start with.
joe
Before anything, just note that of course I'm only speaking of the cameras I've tried, so here it goes:
If you're not using the slow speeds at all, a late model FED-2 with an Industar 22 or even better an Industar 61 is a very good entry. I got mine from Anya and couldn't be happier. It opened a whole world for me (it was my first rangefinder). It's small, and very comfortable to use with the well placed controls and low profile. Not too quiet though.
The other option I've tried, if you're looking for something more "advanced" is try to loate a good Zorki 3M. Better stay away from the Zorki 3. It had separate wheels for normal and slow speeds and for what I read the linkage between them was their weak point. The 3M has shutter speeds going from 1 s. to 1/1000 and is far more quiet and smooth than the FED but on the bad side it has neither flash sync nor self timer.
Take a look here http://www.geocities.com/~fzorkis , Jim Blazik's web. It's the way I got involved in all this ;)
Now I only need a scanner, the one I used in my job said good-bye last monday. It seems 3 months sitting on a shelf was too much for him...
Hey Davin, welcome ! :)
To do this, do I also need to find some sort of viewfinder adapter so that the rangefinder will still function?
The rangefinder will work exactly the same way and it will focus as with your other lens, BUT the field of view you'll see from your viewfinder will be the one for the "normal" lens that came by default with your camera, the 50 mm.
You'll need an external viewfinder that goes on the flash shoe. Just use the normal viewfinder to focus and the external one to compose your picture.
Try to find a soviet finder for your focal length on ebay, get a "Universal / Turret finder" or build a homebrew one. Better if you can find a lens that comes with the adequate finder.
Best !
back alley
11-08-2003, 14:08
thanks for the info taffer.
the link does not work though. it says the page is not available...
joe
Sorry Joe, the correct link is
http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/
I'm sure you'll like that site, but be careful. Once you start collecting and using these cameras is difficult to stop :)
Thanks Taffer (Hi Joe)
Any info on the homebrew idea?
So there are no add-on viewfinders that you know of that somehow couple with the rangefinder to make for more accurate focusing?
Hi, Davin... No external viewfinders have any connection with focusing, though there are external (uncoupled) rangefinders, and some Canon camera bodies included a feature that tilted the external viewfinder automatically with focusing for corrrect parallax.
But you CAN improve rangefinder accuracy with a viewfinder magnifier. There's one from Leica for the M cameras, and Voigtlander Bessa R/R2 users can fit one made by Nikon. I expect the Nikon unit (or others) could be adapted to fit other cameras. I have one from Pentax that pivots out of the way...
Of course a viewfinder magnifier can be slower and awkward to use. RF cameras with long RF baselines (like the Kiev) are more accurate with longer faster lenses, but I'd suggest that out beyond 90mm you're better served with an SLR.
I have used a 135mm lens on a Canon RF for indoor portraits with no complaint, but it's good to realize this is a bit of a strain on the rangefinder system, both in RF accuracy and framing accuracy.
Ken Davis
11-09-2003, 13:06
Interesting reading - I have a number of the Russian Fed's and Zorki's - they are a bit agricultural in their build but they are functioning ok after many years. I Also have the commoner lenses for these - 28mm f6 - very average, 35mm f2.8 -OK but the huge rear element is tricky to keep clean, - various 50's - the 85 f2 Sonnar derivative which is quite good and the 135 which flares badly. HOWEVER you can put the screw thread Voigtlander/Cosina lenes on these bodies and they do perform well - but just watch the rangefinder camming- the Russian gear works diffeently from Leicas.
back alley
11-09-2003, 16:37
ken, welcome to the forum.
joe
Davin, the problem is that you're going the "difficult" way, that is, going from normal lens to telephoto. Building a home made finder for a wide angle lens is easier, and normally you don't mind if the frame doesn't exactly show what will finally show in the picture.
But with a 135 you'll definetely want to adjust your framing with more precission, and more or less the same with an 85.
I think I've seen some 85 mm finders out there on the auction site and some other web stores. Soviet ones are not that expensive, and anyway, if you have a bunch of lenses you can give a try to a Universal (turret) finder, which goes from 35 to 135 mm (If I'm not wrong).
If you haven't got the 85 mm yet, try to find one with finder included, I've seen some of them out there, sure.
Anyway, good luck ! :)
That turret has 28-35-50-85-135 finders on it, and comes in a left and right handed shapes- the rare one being the one that fits the Kiev.
All the handedness does is put the view lens directly over the camera's taking lens, so the view is more accurate.
It is possible to switch the view disks between the finders so correction looks wrong- I believe there's a reference to that on Stephen's site- he (or a friend) has a finder with a foot for a Zorki and a turret for a Kiev, making it much more difficult to work.
JD
If anyone doubts that good samples of any FSU cameras can be found (and I was one of those that doubed after 5 bad Kiev 4s!) simply do an end run and buy from Oleg.
I got from him a Kiev 4 in a nice case, with a clean lens, and a shutter that winds on like BUTTER. A strange experience! Flash sync works, too, all the time.
Yay! I'm back in business!
JD, I hope this one will be the one you've been looking for!
About the butter-like winding, I have a 4AM (I wanted to try the Helios 103 and its almost always found with this model), and the wind process requires some more force when cocking the shutter (I think) than when only advancing film. Otherwise all works OK and I read somewhere that this "hardening" was normal, but I wonder if it's the same on your "new" 4... ?_?
It's going to be the paw tool for the next couple of weeks, so I hope it will work ok... glups...
wierdcollector
11-20-2003, 15:54
Just had to tell someone about the latest and one of the better deals I received from the E auction site. In the mail, I received a beautiful Zorki-4 today. I know, unremarkable, but the seller also included two extra lenses: a Jupiter 8 f2/50, and an Industar-61 f2.8/55 as well as the satin finish Industar-50 f3.5/50. I can guarantee this is one seller who will be hearing from me again, yippee.
back alley
11-20-2003, 19:24
sounds great!
i have been checking ebay for some leica copies also but have not been successful so far.
was this an 'in canada' deal or from elsewhere?
i prefer to stay within canada to limit the hassle of cross border shopping.
joe
You're set to have some fun, JD! I got a Kiev 4A from Fedka, and got very nice service. Odd camera to get used to. Then I picked up a Jupiter-12 35mm from eBay, a silver one with Cyrillic labeling as I preferred. That's a really fine lens I think.
But in examining it closely it seemed to have some specks deep insiide, and one larger speck that I though might be some kind of unwanted substance on an inner element. Also the focusing on this 1969 lens felt like the lube was dry & gooey.
Picked it up today from the repair shop, and he informed me all these specks are bubbles in the glass! I'd heard of such a thing but hadn't seen it before. And the focusing is much smoother now.
wierdcollector
11-21-2003, 03:39
Hi Joe,
The seller was from Missouri, but most of my Russian collection has come from New York and Pennsylvania. I send all my US purchases to a store at the border near where I live so once every 10 days or so I can go pick them all up and do battle with, I mean declare them, at Canada customs myself. It saves umpteen amounts of money and temper to ship this way. I bought a box of broken lenses once for 1$ US and because the seller labelled it wrong, Customs inspected it and I had to pay $9.00 in fees and taxes to pick it up at the post office. Shipping to the border only costs me $2 US/item and most times even though I declare everything, I'm not charged any taxes at all. It's also much faster with most buys arriving in a week or so vs. 4-6 weeks shipped to my house.
wierdcollector
11-21-2003, 03:42
Hi Doug,
My two cents on bubbles in the glass: I have a Jupiter 11 in M42 mount for my SLR's with a small bubble also and not only does it take gorgeous photos, but I wouldn't trade it for love or money.
I now have 5 J-8's and a couple do have bubbles in the glass. In the day, it was considered a mark of quality, now, of course, it wouldn't be so well regarded.
The tightness in the winding at the point where the shutter is being cocked is normal- though my recent Kiev is much smoother- no more grabs. A good thing. There's someone in the states that will restore Kievs (who actually specializes in Contaxs) for good money, and I was thinking it would be nice for him to have a look at one of mine that doesn't work right- I might send along two that he could decide which is better, or for him to combine parts.
The final test is whether or not this camera has light leaks. We'll see!
I've had great success with the J-12 on my Nikon S-2.
It's time for a wider lens. I'm looking for a 21-28 (probably the 28, as it's the shortest FL on my turret finder!) in Contax/Nikon mount. Perhaps CV will come out with a 1.9 for THIS mount?
Thanks, Curt... I am a bit, um.. *charmed* I guess by the discovery of the bubbles in the Yupiter 12. Part of the character of the lens's construction, nicer than a discovery of fly-specks. :-)
Not very evident in such a small pic above, but it seems to be a fine performer, and the repair tech was impressed, saying it looked about as good as a "real" Biogon.
JD, is the 28 you'd be considering the Orion? I saw a "block diagram" of it, revealing its 4 elements are symmetrically arranged front & rear, and not grouped. All four are positive and well separated. A bit odd looking, and I'd think hard to correct various optical errors. But then it's only f/6 at the maximum, isn't it? I might prefer something more sophisticated... if there IS any other 28mm choice?
There are other 28mm choices; Contax made one, as did Nikon, but seriously, I'd consider the new one from Cosina/Voigtlander- though at f-3.5, it's slower than I'd like. I'm hoping that CV will port their 28 1.9 over to the mount.
The 4 element-4 group Double Gauss design is pretty cool- I have the Mamiya 65mm lens for the Mamiya Universal which has that design as well. It's great for contrast, even with single coated lenses.
JD, thanks for the info. I took the first shots with the 4am last friday and it handled well enough. The tightness when cocking the shutter is not that bad anyway and I think there's really nothing wrong with it, but it's less "silky" than on the zorki 3m.
Getting used to the "contax grip" may take some time, and I discovered that for now the focusing wheel on top of the body seems a bit odd to my fingers, so I use to focus using the lens, as always.
OTH, the RF is by far the best I've tried yet, big and easily useable with very good brightness and contrast. Also, the shutter is VERY quiet, with a brief 'snap' instead of the usual 'thro-poff' of a cloth shutter.
Ah, and about the J-12, I also have one on LTM mount but used it only for indoor pictures. They turned up well enough, but some outdoor test is needed.
Let's see how the renowned Helios-103 performs finally, I'm using color slides this time.
I've found I must be VERY careful with the J-12 outside- flare is a very real problem, and the best I've done is drop the shutter speed and stop down, which seems to tighten up the flare troubles. I don't have a hood for the lens, and I don't know if it would help, truthfully. This is in both samples that I have (now 5 J-8's, all nice, 3 J-12's with two working, 2 J-9's, and another 135mm). It's bad.
On the other hand, the J-8 is strangely resistant to flare, even though I don't yet have a hood for it either. I'm VERY happy with my samples- they give great images and don't challenge me over-much with "what do I need to do to make sure this shot comes out the way I want it?" decisions.
The 85mm's flare pretty badly, and I do have a hood that helps.
The 135? I've only used it a couple times, and it didn't flare when I did, though I hear it may well, and that I should find a hood. Of course finding hoods for these beasts that work well with the focal length isn't easy. I can always make them, I suppose...
I think it so strange that even though the finder on the Kiev is so small, it is also so bright and usable. I've never mis-focused a shot, even wide open and up close.
Now, I'm off to look for the Holy Grail- the J-3, contrast be darned!
pshinkaw
12-09-2003, 08:58
I've been trying out my backloag of Russian lens purchases from the past year. Some good, some bad. This is an example from a $25.00 Jupiter-8. I bought it to replace a defective Industar-26m on a Fed-3a. The Fed istself only cost about $20.00 with the defective lens.
-Paul
crackers
12-09-2003, 15:42
I can't seem to clean out my paypal account without first buying another something russian - amazing results for the tinkerer.
Paul, I can't see anything there to complain about! I've been using a J8M on my Kiev, which looks good to me. I have noticed that the circles formed by out of focus highlights are lighter around the rim and seem to "point" toward the center. Here's a shaky example shot wide open at about 1/4 sec hand-held...
Another from my J8M & Kiev, a leetle crisper... :-)
Rich Silfver
12-09-2003, 20:52
Doug, amazingly sharp and very nice colours.
Good job!
Thanks, Richard! The lens is impressive, especially considering the origins and the price, as Pauls shot also demonstrates. I've read some compliments on the Helios-103 too. I wonder if it's related to the Jupiter-8 or a different design?
pshinkaw
12-10-2003, 07:16
This web page has diagrams of both the Jupiter-8 and Helios-103. They appear to be very different lenses. I think the Jupiter-8 is closaer to a Zeiss Sonnar while the Helios-103 is more like a Leitz Summitar.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~hd9f-segs/russian-lc-lens.htm
-Paul
Pshinkaw:
I really like your image of the signs and buildings. Great sharpness and color. Nice work with a Russian Jupiter 8 lens!
Best, Bill
Pshinkaw, thanx for the link ! It's now well stored in my favorites !
I have a half-exposed Elite 100 roll on my Kiev 4am / Helios 103, my paw tool for these weeks. Let's see how the "legendary" lens performs finally...
Best !
Thanks for the link, Paul. They are quite different, with the Helios essentially a symmetrical 6/4 design. Indeed, it's my understanding the J-12 IS a Sonnar...
pshinkaw
12-10-2003, 11:09
I think the symmetrical design is called a "Double Gauss". That might make the Helios a closer cousin of the Summitar than the Sonnar.
When I first acquired mine, I ran a side-by-side comparison using a Kiev-4 with the Jupiter-8 and a Kiev-4A with the Helios. There is a really slight difference between the pictures, but it is really hard to tell unless you are looking for it.
-Paul
pshinkaw
12-10-2003, 11:13
Oops. Somehow this comparison didn't get attached. The top one is the Jupiter-8, the bottom one is the Helios-103
-Paul
Hmmm.
The J-8 certainly captures more people in its pictures.
LOL... JD, that's an attribute!
The pics are otherwise hard to distinguish, but it seem to me the Jupiter's shadows are a bit darker, maybe more contrast with that lens?
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