View Full Version : Black Zeiss Ikon ZM
Hi, just wondering if anyone has heard any definitive plans regarding a black version of the ZM?
Frank Granovski
11-17-2005, 20:49
I heard from a good source that the black one is the one to hold out for, though I do prefer silver because black infers professional. :cool:
Frank Granovski
11-17-2005, 22:21
I sit corrected. :)
you mean "stand corrected". :D :D
Frank Granovski
11-17-2005, 22:29
No, I'm sitting in front of my computer screen. :)
oh, ok.
back to the original question. yes, there will be a black paint zeiss ikon.
oh, ok.
back to the original question. yes, there will be a black paint zeiss ikon.
Black paint like the a la carte Leica's or anodised black ? Black paint would be nice :)
black paint, it's not easy to anodyse magnesium
smiling gecko
11-18-2005, 00:05
go frank, go !!!
i concur with your usage of 'infers' instead of 'implies'...
merriam-webster on-line defintion of 'infer' :
One entry found for infer.
Main Entry: inˇfer
Pronunciation: in-'f&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): inˇferred; inˇferˇring
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French inferer, from Latin inferre, literally, to carry or bring into, from in- + ferre to carry -- more at BEAR
transitive senses
1 : to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises <we see smoke and infer fire -- L. A. White> -- compare IMPLY
2 : GUESS, SURMISE <your letter... allows me to infer that you are as well as ever -- O. W. Holmes died 1935>
3 a : to involve as a normal outcome of thought b : to point out : INDICATE <this doth infer the zeal I had to see him -- Shakespeare> <another survey... infers that two-thirds of all present computer installations are not paying for themselves -- H. R. Chellman>
4 : SUGGEST, HINT <are you inferring I'm incompetent?>
intransitive senses : to draw inferences <men... have observed, inferred, and reasoned... to all kinds of results -- John Dewey>
- inˇferˇable also inˇferˇriˇble /in-'f&r-&-b&l/ adjective
- inˇferˇrer /-'f&r-&r/ noun
synonyms INFER, DEDUCE, CONCLUDE, JUDGE, GATHER
...and then there is the definition for 'imply':
One entry found for imply.
Main Entry: imˇply
Pronunciation: im-'plI
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): imˇplied; imˇplyˇing
Etymology: Middle English emplien, from Middle French emplier, from Latin implicare
1 obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement <rights imply obligations>
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly <his silence implied consent>
synonym see SUGGEST
usage see INFER
...so, there it is...i'm not trying to bug you , alzan, so please don't call out an entomologist...maybe an etymologist would be better...this is where i remind myself "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"...not to be too serious about this...time for me to " hit the silk" and get out of here...adieu
_________________________
"...patience and shuffle the cards" miguel cervantes
"nothing can be learned..." herman hesse
"...everybody knows everything" jack kerouac
"...some memories are realities and are better than anything" willa cather
Frank Granovski
11-18-2005, 00:19
Okey-dokey. Thanks for the Angly lesson! ;)
bobofish
11-18-2005, 00:44
And now for a real answer:
It is rumored to be coming out in January or February.
It's slightly possible that it will be out earlier, and it is quite likely that it will be out later; use your imagination to figure out the actual timeline, and you'll still probablly be off by a few weeks.
I say Valentine's Day.
I should add that they're kindof waiting for the "limited edition" silver ones to sell out, before they release the black ones.
look at the synonyms listed!
James Burton
11-18-2005, 01:54
black paint, it's not easy to anodyse magnesium
Hmmm if I remember correctly plain magnesium burns really easily. Perhaps it's a magnesium/aluminium alloy (like car wheels) - which would anodise really well.
James
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 04:45
look at the synonyms listed!
Aizan is correct in this case. I have a similar pet peeve with the frequent use & misuse of imply/infer by even otherwise highly educated people. However, I usually bite my tongue. Ouch!
Now I'm going to look up the meaning of the word: "pedantic." :p
Cheers,
Huck
Palaeoboy
11-18-2005, 04:46
The black is definately nice but I think traditional chrome would be the one I go for. I hope the chrome isnt discontinued when the black comes out.
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 04:50
Hmmm if I remember correctly plain magnesium burns really easily. Perhaps it's a magnesium/aluminium alloy (like car wheels) - which would anodise really well.
James
Hasselblad & Zeiss don't clarify whether it is an alloy, but I have to think that it is. Magnesium has only come into widespread use for a wide variety of manufacturing purposes with the development of such alloys.
They similarly state that the die-cast chasis is "aluminum," but again I would have to think that they are referring to an aluminum alloy such as is used by Leica, Nikon, etc. for their die-cast chasis (sic?). Anyone know how to spell the plural of chasis? :o
Huck
Black is beautiful.
Are they serious about the all dark logo? Looks really strange to me.
Mr. Gandy, at site sponsor CameraQuest, is taking advance orders for the black model.
http://cameraquest.com/ZM%20lenses.htm
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 09:23
me? a pedant? :angel:
Actually, Aizan, I was talking about me. :angel: But if the shoe fits . . . :p
Cheers,
Huck
KoNickon
11-18-2005, 09:34
Mr. Gandy indicates the "chrome" is actually silver paint, and he doesn't think it'll look very good (or wear attractively). I understand the camera to be made of a magnesium alloy. If that's so, then they could have left it unpainted -- my GR1 is of a mag. alloy as well and handsome in the (unpainted) silver finish. But if the silver paint wears off to a silver magnesium, that should look OK, I think.
I guess I don't understand the attraction of black paint. Yes, it looks great on certain cameras, but it doesn't wear well at all. I know lots of people love the "brassy" look, but I'm not one of them. I think I'd rather have a camera finish that doesn't show the wear. Does a brassy black finish camera hold its value better than a chrome finish version that doesn't show the wear (assuming a similar number of black and chrome cameras made)?
Why is paint better than anodized?
SolaresLarrave
11-18-2005, 09:48
Of course, in the past, professional photogs used to paint their cameras black. Hence the tradition. :)
Joe Brugger
11-18-2005, 10:07
Wonder why they aren't using something more durable, like an epoxy powder coating or something similar. Does that fail to draw the brassing fetishists? Whatever the finish on my Minolta CLE, it shows very little wear after several years of use.
Has a retail price been published for the black ZI?
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 10:14
Whatever the finish on my Minolta CLE, it shows very little wear after several years of use.
Has a retail price been published for the black ZI?
High praise for the CLE, Joe. Don't you mean several decades of use? ;)
The retail price of the ZI is the same regardless of the color.
Huck
<<< brassing fan, worn camera fan
heh. I think I will spend a little less and grab a M4-P, when I get a job...
The retail price of the ZI is the same regardless of the color.
Huck
Actually CameraQuest lists the black model at $1400.
Little Prince
11-18-2005, 11:08
It can't be plain Magnesium. I'm quite sure the metal is highly combustible and reacts strongly to water. It must be alloyed with something (Aluminum is common, though I don't know if so in the camera business).
mr roberts
11-18-2005, 11:26
In this case, as well as with the black m6, we might want to replace "brassing" with "magging" to properly describe the apppearance created by use of the tool.
The underlying mag, likely alloyed and as likely created by a high pressure molding process (Thixo) rather than die casting, will have been finished to optimize paint adhesion rather than brought to a bright finish that would blend well as the silver "coating" wears.
I'm with Joe as well. I'd like to see a more matte finish black to dark grey powder coat instead of paint. The black by the way looks better, IMO, because it makes the panel aroung the lens mount a little less strident. I'd like to see the silver modified to bring the covering in closer with a form that offsets from the radius of the lens mount.
Other than that, the silver is a handsome tool in its own right.
You'll have a hard time getting a magnesium body to catch fire unless you shave it into thin slivers. I have a black GR1v, my father has the silver one. Both are painted. Magnesium corrodes very easily and has to be surface treated. I've worn the paint in places on my black one and from what I can see there seems to be another coat of primer/surface treater over the metal.
As for the new Ikon I think it's a beautifully designed camera. I'm very partial to the classic black paint on my MP. It's shiny and black. It just begs for some caressing. My gf just read that and gave me a look of disgust :D oh well... The Zeiss is visually quite modernly styled and I feel a matte black is more fitting... I agree the silver is also quite nice in its own right... but everyone knows black cameras take better photos than chrome ones.
Sorry I meant to say that my black GR1v is displaying some mild "magging" :D
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 14:18
Actually CameraQuest lists the black model at $1400.
Jason, the price is the same regardless of color. That statement is from Hasselblad, not me. Cameraquest is advertising $1400 because they are a grey market dealer that imports cameras from somewhere outside the regular distribution channels, i.e. not through Hasselblad. Their price is not the MSRP. They would have a lower price regardless of color. Stephen Gandy has said that he will only carry black because he doesn't like the silver version, which is his prerogative.
Another grey market dealer, Tony Rose at www.popflash.com, e-mailed me to say he will be carrying the camera at $1311. He expects to have only silver at first. This does not mean that silver is cheaper any more than CQ's $1400 price means that black versions are cheaper. Grey market dealers set their own price, based on the mark-up that will cover overhead & provide them with a reasonable profit. Normally they offer in-house store warrantees rather than manufacturer's warrantees. Dealers receiving cameras from Hasselblad, the approved distributor, must adhere to MSRP.
Huck
Huck,
Thanks for the clarification.
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 16:45
You're welcome, Jason.
Huck
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 17:09
everyone knows black cameras take better photos than chrome ones.
So true, so true, OdDbaLL. :D :D
"It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."
Huck Finn
11-18-2005, 17:11
Hi, just wondering if anyone has heard any definitive plans regarding a black version of the ZM?
Stephen Gandy posted on LUG today that he will have them "probably in December."
Double Vision
11-18-2005, 18:52
Are they serious about the all dark logo? Looks really strange to me.
I wish they had stuck with the nice blue logo from the prototypes, like a Zeiss version of the red dot.
Maybe it IS pure magnesium. Since the camera does not come with a flash, it IS the flash. You hit the shutter button and the camera explodes, leaving only the lens and film to drop out into a special pocket. It makes it a single use camera though...
the discreet logo is one of the nicer design touches, i think.
Maybe it IS pure magnesium. Since the camera does not come with a flash, it IS the flash. You hit the shutter button and the camera explodes, leaving only the lens and film to drop out into a special pocket. It makes it a single use camera though...
Wow, it will be for emergency I am sure. After it starts to 'mag', you just have to drool over it to get the flash :)
I'd prefer Titanium in a nice brushed finish. Those who met me at the Toronto meet know I use a single forearm crutch to get around. Because the typical crutches are of VERY low quality (i.e. made to a pricepoint by child labour in certain countries, no offense intended), I had to find something that would snap in two as I descended stairs. I found a manufacturer of titanium models, guaranteed for 10 years. I even convinced my insurance company they were a necessity. Oh, to get back on topic ...
I've fallen in love with titanium, and don't know if it is superior or not to a magnesium alloy for a camera body, but man, it looks nice and feels wonderful. And all cameras with unpainted titanium would be grey market. :p
Earl
Palaeoboy
11-19-2005, 06:28
Whatever the finish on my Minolta CLE, it shows very little wear after several years of use.
The CLE finish does wear very well. Its a black chrome like some Leicas but never looks aged and tardy like some M's get with time. But the top and bottom covers are polycarbonate so how can they be black chromed? What Minolta did was to coat the covers in copper and the add the black chrome onto that to give a really robust finish. Very rarely do they wear though only when the get a knock or are dropped. When the Minola X-700 came out they used a similar process but the coating was much thinner and a bit more glossier as well. When you look at the corners (especially on the prism) you can see the thin copper layer showing through. They obviously found the extra thickness on the CLE to be too expensive or maybe because the X SLR's have a more folds and indents (the CLE's are basically all flat) as X-700's dont seem to wear as well. The cost of replacement top covers for CLE's when they were still available was very high considering how tiny they are. 250USD they were some 10 years ago.
ezio gallino
11-19-2005, 11:51
Why, go digital (1,33 of 1.579,crops) they optimized al special /DIGITALDX/ with Zeiss digital only at cheap cost and became leaders :maybe with some soom and macros.
Theys became leasrd od digital rengefingder and non laica B move keeipimg prices far from obsolescence.
Just saw the announcement on CQ. Sounds exciting. I think there is also the issue of tactility when comparing black paint or anodized versions. My RTS II which I believe is a black paint, feels wonderful, and has a warmer feel to it, then say my T3 which is a black anodizing type thing over Titanium. I prefer the black paint, and look forward to the black paint ZM. Now, just got to save for it...
The Black Zeiss-Ikon will be available here in Japan at the end of this month. Anyone want to order? :D
Why, go digital (1,33 of 1.579,crops) they optimized al special /DIGITALDX/ with Zeiss digital only at cheap cost and became leaders :maybe with some soom and macros.
Theys became leasrd od digital rengefingder and non laica B move keeipimg prices far from obsolescence.
I think I'm probably glad I didn't understand that...
Just saw the announcement on CQ. Sounds exciting.
What announcement is that? I just looked, but didn't see anything new...
vincentbenoit
11-22-2005, 13:20
Why, go digital (1,33 of 1.579,crops) they optimized al special /DIGITALDX/ with Zeiss digital only at cheap cost and became leaders :maybe with some soom and macros.
Theys became leasrd od digital rengefingder and non laica B move keeipimg prices far from obsolescence.Would you mind to elaborate a bit? ;)
Cheers
Vincent
Black logo is O.K. It's the silver frame lever which stands out as odd :eek: . Well that's my two peeny worth. Black body with silver lens :confused: . What you ned to do is see both of them side by side in the flesh, as it were. Trouble is, it looks like my nearest dealer is 3 hour drive away :( .
kram, you're so lucky! The closest dealer I found so far is Foto Huppert in Wuppertal. That's more 5 to 8 hours to drive, depending on traffic :-(
Huck Finn
11-23-2005, 13:45
It's the silver frame lever which stands out as odd :eek: :( .
The picture on the Zeiss pages at the Cosina website shows a black frame selection lever. The only thing silver I can see is the lens mount button & it looks okay IMHO. - Huck
kram, you're so lucky! The closest dealer I found so far is Foto Huppert in Wuppertal. That's more 5 to 8 hours to drive, depending on traffic :-(
I think the nearest dealer for me in Shanghai is Dr. Yao in Hongkong. Hopefully I won't get to know how lovely it is until next year.
Huck Finn
11-23-2005, 18:40
is Dr. Yao in Hongkong?
Yes, he is in HK.
JoeFriday
11-23-2005, 19:20
The picture on the Zeiss pages at the Cosina website shows a black frame selection lever. The only thing silver I can see is the lens mount button & it looks okay IMHO. - Huck
I'm having an unusually difficult time finding the Cosina website that shows a black body (other than a prototype on the zeissikon.com page
where should I be looking?
hi joe, here's (http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/co/ikon/index.html) where it's at.
JoeFriday
11-23-2005, 20:10
thanks.. must have been the fact that it's a japanese URL that threw me off
Oh, man! They put a silver lens on a black body. It looks weird. Black lens on a silver body sounds a bit better though.
Leicanthrope
11-24-2005, 07:17
Anyone know how to spell the plural of chasis? :o
Huck
I can't help you there, but I can tell you that the plural of 'chassis' is 'chassis'.
I can't help you there, but I can tell you that the plural of 'chassis' is 'chassis'.Yes, but in the plural form the final "s" is sounded.
black lens on chrome body, yuck! i like how chrome lenses look on black bodies, though. harkens back to the leica ii and all that.
The picture on the Zeiss pages at the Cosina website shows a black frame selection lever. The only thing silver I can see is the lens mount button & it looks okay IMHO. - Huck
Huck look at thumbnail photo, posted by Palaeoboy, on page 1 of this topic.
Huck Finn
11-26-2005, 10:09
Ahhh . . . So, that's the photo. The shutter release button is also chrome in that picture. I don't know what Joel's source was for that photo, but I wonder which of the two photos the eventual camera will actually look like. :confused:
Huck
Ahhh . . . So, that's the photo. The shutter release button is also chrome in that picture. I don't know what Joel's source was for that photo, but I wonder which of the two photos the eventual camera will actually look like.That wood-grain counter the camera is resting on leads me to think that photo is one of a group I also downloaded on 1 Oct 04 about when the camera was first announced, and a non-working prototype was displayed at some show. I think the black one was also non-working, a "concept" box to guage reaction, possibly shown only behind closed doors and someone at the show placed it on a table and took those snapshots of it. Here's another from that series showing the top more clearly...
You're right, Doug. Those old pics of the black prototype are from a Japanese website. The current one in Cosina's page show a much shinier finish. I'm not so sure about the black (paint?) frameline-selector unless you want instant brassing.
http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/co/ikon/ikon-bl.jpg
The camera will not look that shiny in person. That is just a shot for the web. If you look at real photos of it, it looks like normal black paint, not like a grand piano.
In any case, I have a japanese book that has tons of pictures of the Ikon. A few have the silver preview, and the others have black. The serial number for the camera with the silver preview is 00000004, and the one for the black paint preview is 00000273, so I assume that the production models will have the black paint preview....
The serial number for the camera with the silver preview is 00000004, and the one for the black paint preview is 00000273, so I assume that the production models will have the black paint preview....Interesting, as you can see in my post with the black prototype, its serial number is 00000004 too.
Maybe they just hadn't gotten around to fabricating a black paint one yet and just slapped one on there from the silver...
In any case, I am going to be in Tokyo on the 7th-9th, so perhaps they will have a black one around at one of the shops. I have seen the silver one already, and I think they said the black was going to be available earlier in Japan than anywhere else, though I don't remember what the exact date was going to be.
Palaeoboy
11-28-2005, 08:16
The photos I have are the prototype black model that was kept under the counter when the Silver version was first shown. Here is the set of them if you are interested.
vincentbenoit
11-28-2005, 09:43
The photos I have are the prototype black model that was kept under the counter when the Silver version was first shown. Here is the set of them if you are interested.I for one wish and hope they do away with the silver bits on the final "black" version... Come on, this is a camera after all (i.e. a tool, as far as I'm concerned), not a piece of jewellery...
That's the same number 00000004 prototype. It is the earliest prototype we have photos for, and the only one that has the silver preview. Given that later prototypes and even the website have black previews, I would say that it is pretty safe to assume that the previews will be black.
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