View Full Version : The Ikon Has Landed
...in the UK.
Robert White has just told me that the first consignment of 10 Special Edition bodies arrived with him this morning (GMT). "Hurrah" he wryly exclaimed, "I have only waited a year for these!"
£780 +VAT
Huck Finn
11-10-2005, 08:28
780 GBP = $1362 USD. So Robert White is even a cheaper source for the ZI than Dr. Yao ($1395) in Hong Kong since Americans will not pay VAT. American prices on this camera continue to be the highest I've seen anywhere, which is very unusual. Maybe a hedge against the declining US dollar. It's nice to see that it is available for under $1400, making it an even more viable alternative to the M7 - new or used - while still being an upgrade over a Bessa.
That's a really good price!
£916.50 including VAT. This is about £100 less than previously suggested and cheaper than M7s on ebay. I think they might have got the priceing spot on, as suggested an move up from the Bessa to either a new Ikon or... for abit more £/$, a second-hand M7.
If someone can compare and contrast handling charateristics ... It would be an interest to me and; I am sure, a few other rff members.
Not so long now for Mr. Hicks review in Shutterbug :D (and I hope Roger mentions it in his AP articles as well).
http://cgi.ebay.com/Zeiss-Ikon-Body-Rangefinder-Camera-2-50mm-ZM-Planar_W0QQitemZ7561884285QQcategoryZ3330QQcmdZVie wItem
Super Camera!
Finder 1AAA!!!
major faux pas with the limited edition engraving. it would have looked much better on the back!
check this Url:
http://www.shphoto.de/images/start.jpg
Looks just a tiny bit clunky, but I guess you could say that's in the Icarex tradition!
Still, very persuasive at this kind of price point. I don't have much opportunity to shoot film anymore, and have already got plenty of nice "vintage" RFs to use when I do... but I'd be awfully tempted to take a look at this one, with that nice long RF base. Think I'd wait for the black model, though...
The only problem, I have no M-Mount lenses :-(
Flyfisher Tom
11-10-2005, 12:53
That is a good price, and Robert White is a great firm to deal with. Just wish the dollar was stronger :(
That is a good price, and Robert White is a great firm to deal with. Just wish the dollar was stronger :(
Stephen says on the CameraQuest website that he'll have the black ones at $1,400 when they become available. That's a pretty good price too, and of course he's a great firm to deal with as well. If I decide to take the plunge, that's probably how I'll take it.
Robert White has just told me that the first consignment of 10 Special Edition bodies arrived with him this morning (GMT). £780 +VAT
But his web page doesn't say it's the Special Edition, or if any warranty is offered. :confused:
Huck Finn
11-10-2005, 18:29
My understanding is that Stephen's cameras will be grey market, meaning store (CQ) warranty, & will not be LE. The Limited Edition is obviously silver only. Tony Rose at Popflash told me that he anticipates a price of $1350 for the same deal, although he doesn't really know until they come & he sees what his price is. My guess is that Stephen also has to wait until he can set his price. Tony will have his sooner than Stephen because he will be selling silver as well as black. The silver ones will come in first. Tony expects them this week. I know that great buys can be had on the grey market, but i'm leery of them in this case. Call me paranoid. :rolleyes:
I'd actually rather have a black one than the silver LE ones. I'm likewise normally leery of grey market on a newly-introduced camera model, but I don't know whether my local Hasselblad dealer is even going to pick up the ZI.
I guess, as usual, we'll have to wait for the situation to resolve itself before we really know who, where, how much, and how good.
Ooooh, it looks good - solid, a no nonsense looking thing. Grrr.
Working on the basis that only 10 of them arrived with Robert yesterday, and they are all Limited Edition, I guess we can asssume that what he is selling, at least initially, are LE ones. Best speak to Robert and his people re warranties etc.
Agree re price point, very attractive and cheaper than second hand M7s are going for. Good condition ones are going for £1300 - £1400 body only with people like Ffordes. You can almost get body and lens for that new with the Ikon. If build quality is up to the mark (and let us hope it is for Zeiss's sake - they have taken a big punt on this camera - heaven forfend that it fails and drags the Co down with it, we cannot afford to lose another big name, unless we all want to use camera 'phones!) then it should be a great little camera a serious alternative to Leica.
For those who have not read Irwin Put's reviews on the lenses here are the links -
http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c015.html
http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c016.html
http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c017.html
From what he says they are great lenses and will give a different "look" to their Leica equivalents - all down to how the designers go about things and how they think images should look. I will be fascinated to read reports from anyone who has bought one, esp. anyone who already has Leica. (A side by side field test of M6/7 with latest 50mm Summicron and Ikon with 50mm Planar would be really interesting.)
I am sure they will be a welcome addition to the RF world - now where's my bank manager's telephone number...?
Huck Finn
11-11-2005, 01:55
My wariness of the grey market in this case comes from 2 factors: the Zeiss/Cosina partnership & Zeiss quality control.
My expectation is that the high standards of Zeiss QC will lead to a higher number of rejected samples than ususal. In some of these, the identified QC problem will be corrected & they will be turned around & become regular production cameras. However, what happens to those that are rejects?
My fear is that these make their way through back door channels into the grey market. This is where they strange partnership between Zeiss & Cosina comes into play. Zeiss didn't simply subcontract the manufacture of these cameras to Cosina the way Nikon & others have. They also gave them distribution rights in Japan. As a result, Cosina has its own "Zeiss" section on its website (www.cosina.co.jp) So, my question is who controls inventory? Especially in regard to rejected samples. Do these "rejects" fall below Zeiss standards but fall within normal standards for Cosina products? Does Cosina "own" them after they have been rejected by Zeiss? What does it mean to have a Zeiss Ikon that does not carry a Zeiss warranty? Why is Zeiss not willing to stand behind it? Is it just corporate rights & distribution channels? I think it's important that grey market dealers address the QC issues in their advertising & on their web pages to clarify these questions.
I had not originally planned to buy an early production sample but was prepared to wait for user reports & to see the failure rate. (In addition, I've already waited more than a year. ;) ) However, I have been convinced to buy now because of Zeiss QC & because I think that these first samples have probably gotten even more scrutiny than regular production samples will get once the ice has been broken & production routines have become, well, "routine." Part of what I'm paying for IMHO is the reliability that comes with high QC.
I hope that the grey market cameras are built to the same high standards becasue it is an important source for many buyers & because we have some good grey market dealers from which to choose. The grey market also puts downward price pressure on the official distributors - which is certainly needed in the USA. As an aside, it's stunning that the same camera can be obtained for $250 less in England from a highly respected dealer than in the USA.
As I said in a previous post, call me paranoid. :p
Huck
Frank Granovski
11-11-2005, 02:41
This new M camera is going to drive some Leitz subjects to suicide, others to seek a new God like, "Ikon," and the ones left out will be compelled to wonder the streets and curse amongst themselves. Luckily, Prozak is cheap, unlike the smallest Leica screw or nut. Heck, at 1/2 the price of an M7/MP, and probably better, no one will blame them for their disarray or their newly discovered Ikonic condition. The smart ones with bend; the dumb ones will burst. Take care. ;)
Specially, CL/CLE fans will fall in love with the black model, I guess, the whole camera looks like a homage to the mighty CLE :)
What I 'miss' on first sight ? Had it had the FM3a hybrid shutter, it would have been THE BOMB, but anyway, looks like a true jewel.
Having followed the story of this camera and lenses since many months ago, I can only wish the best success for this new Cosina/Zeiss partnership :)
And thanks for keep bringing new life to the RF world ! Competition is always a good thing.
<ZI, if you're reading this, I think at least I deserve a body plus a 35/2 after my above dissertation ;)>
Oscar
Huck,
I would not worry too much about reject stuff going over the fence from the Cosina factory. In a previous life I used to draft contracts of the sort that would be in place between Zeiss and Cosina re production and also distribution (two separate issues). Such things as quality are nailed down pretty hard. It simply would not be worth Cosina allowing rejects to escape. In fact they will be at pains not to as the ramifications for the relationship with Zeiss would be too horrible. It simply is not worth risking such potentially valuable contracts and the devastating effect on their reputation that it would have for the sake of a few quid made by flogging a few cameras out the back door.
Employee theft can never be eliminated although I am sure that Cosina will do their best to do so for the reasons set out above. Also remember, we are talking about production facilities that are not huge, staffed by skilled and reasonably well paid staff making high quality goods that do not have a ready market "on the street". As a worker there would it be worth risking your job to get a reject camera and try to sell it down the pub? Jeans, maybe, car tyres - now you are talking (divert a lory full of them and there is serious cash to be had) not sure cameras are so "liquid" or (easily disposible if you like).
I am sure that you are right that QC will be v good - for it not to be would be folly indeed. I am sure that CZ will not have taken their eye off the ball on that one!
I just want to get one in my sweaty paws!
Huck Finn
11-11-2005, 16:39
Huck,
I would not worry too much about reject stuff going over the fence from the Cosina factory. In a previous life I used to draft contracts of the sort that would be in place between Zeiss and Cosina re production and also distribution (two separate issues). Such things as quality are nailed down pretty hard. It simply would not be worth Cosina allowing rejects to escape. In fact they will be at pains not to as the ramifications for the relationship with Zeiss would be too horrible. It simply is not worth risking such potentially valuable contracts and the devastating effect on their reputation that it would have for the sake of a few quid made by flogging a few cameras out the back door.
Employee theft can never be eliminated although I am sure that Cosina will do their best to do so for the reasons set out above. Also remember, we are talking about production facilities that are not huge, staffed by skilled and reasonably well paid staff making high quality goods that do not have a ready market "on the street". As a worker there would it be worth risking your job to get a reject camera and try to sell it down the pub? Jeans, maybe, car tyres - now you are talking (divert a lory full of them and there is serious cash to be had) not sure cameras are so "liquid" or (easily disposible if you like).
I am sure that you are right that QC will be v good - for it not to be would be folly indeed. I am sure that CZ will not have taken their eye off the ball on that one!
I just want to get one in my sweaty paws!
CJ, Thanks for the insight & for quelling my paranoia. Sometimes I get some stupid ideas - aka wild speculation - & need to be brought back to reality. - Huck
is there a difference between the grey market and the limited edition ZI (the onese that are to be available at popflash, for instance)?
Huck Finn
11-11-2005, 18:21
AFAIK the only significant difference is the warranty - manufacturer's warranty vs. store warranty . . . & the price. The LE also has a special engraving which is not on regular production cameras . . . FWIW.
ZeissFan
11-11-2005, 19:11
Specially, CL/CLE fans will fall in love with the black model, I guess, the whole camera looks like a homage to the mighty CLE :)
Oscar
I don't think Carl Zeiss AG had a discontinued 30-year-old camera in mind when they were designing this one. However, maybe you should get a camera + lens for mentioning it. :D
B&H now has them in stock at $1617 :(
CameraQuest
11-12-2005, 11:01
Yes, Huck
you are paranoid. it's amazing how much stuff you are imagining that simply does not exist.
all of the new new ZM lineup with a serial number (camera bodies or lenses) leave the factory with a hand signed inspection certificate by Zeiss Quality Control. If it does not pass, the problem is fixed, or the sample is destroyed in evaluation to get to the cause of the problem. There is no such thing as new ZM products which leave the factory without passing Zeiss QC.
Stephen Gandy
While picking up my new M6 and Elmar I obviously went into my favorite bar for a quick pint or two .... Frequented by artists andf photographers (or folk that call themselves such) the discusion pondered towards the new Zeiss rangefinder. It was very clearly agreed upon (by all the "Profs") that the new Zeiss was just an extension of the Bessa and that the lenses were renamed bessas VC lenses too, just a brand mark up ... And actually the whole thing had very little to do with Carl Zeiss, but just a way in keeping their name up there ... Now I don't know how to value these comments but listening to the srgumentation they seemed pretty valid to me
ZeissFan
11-12-2005, 12:09
Pymm, very truthfully, the comments from these folks (nice as they might be) are both not true and also display a lack of knowledge about Carl Zeiss and the camera. This is just the type misinformation that Zeiss will have to counter with this camera and the lenses.
The lenses are Carl Zeiss designs. Carl Zeiss has NEVER taken other lens designs and attached Planar, Sonnar or Biogon or Distagon to the name plate. NEVER. Now, other companies have done that with Carl Zeiss designs, but not Carl Zeiss.
And the body is a Carl Zeiss design that makes use of some Cosina parts. But there are notable and significant differences throughout the camera that set it apart. The Zeiss Ikon is not a rebadged Bessa, and I don't know if that can be said often enough.
I can certainly tell you that the touch and feel of the Zeiss Ikon is markedly different from a Bessa. And the viewfinder vastly surpasses the Bessa's nice design. As nice as the Bessa viewfinder is, it doesn't approach the precision of the Zeiss Ikon.
These fellows are sadly mistaken.
Taipei-metro
11-12-2005, 15:03
My wariness of the grey market in this case comes from 2 factors: the Zeiss/Cosina partnership & Zeiss quality control.
My expectation is that the high standards of Zeiss QC will lead to a higher number of rejected samples than ususal. In some of these, the identified QC problem will be corrected & they will be turned around & become regular production cameras. However, what happens to those that are rejects?
My fear is that these make their way through back door channels into the grey market. This is where they strange partnership between Zeiss & Cosina comes into play. Zeiss didn't simply subcontract the manufacture of these cameras to Cosina the way Nikon & others have. They also gave them distribution rights in Japan. As a result, Cosina has its own "Zeiss" section on its website (www.cosina.co.jp) So, my question is who controls inventory? Especially in regard to rejected samples. Do these "rejects" fall below Zeiss standards but fall within normal standards for Cosina products? Does Cosina "own" them after they have been rejected by Zeiss? What does it mean to have a Zeiss Ikon that does not carry a Zeiss warranty? Why is Zeiss not willing to stand behind it? Is it just corporate rights & distribution channels? I think it's important that grey market dealers address the QC issues in their advertising & on their web pages to clarify these questions.
I had not originally planned to buy an early production sample but was prepared to wait for user reports & to see the failure rate. (In addition, I've already waited more than a year. ;) ) However, I have been convinced to buy now because of Zeiss QC & because I think that these first samples have probably gotten even more scrutiny than regular production samples will get once the ice has been broken & production routines have become, well, "routine." Part of what I'm paying for IMHO is the reliability that comes with high QC.
I hope that the grey market cameras are built to the same high standards becasue it is an important source for many buyers & because we have some good grey market dealers from which to choose. The grey market also puts downward price pressure on the official distributors - which is certainly needed in the USA. As an aside, it's stunning that the same camera can be obtained for $250 less in England from a highly respected dealer than in the USA.
As I said in a previous post, call me paranoid. :p
Huck
It's a kind of LOW to IMPLY Japanese or Cosina supply Zeiss Ikon "rejects" to non-Hasselblad distributor like CameraQ.
Zeiss Ikon is fresh out of the oven, you may pay up to $1,650 at B and H, or $1,400 from Hong Kong, China and still get an out of alignment finder like RD-1s, gray or not gray, who knows.
Zeiss QC, Voigtlander QC, Rollei QC (remember Rollei RF? was $1,400 when introduced, now selling $600 w 40mm Zeiss ) aren't they the same people?...Yeah Germen! LOL.
Cosina in Asia, is not Lexus, more or less like Sanyo in the electonic world.
There are two page ads in many Japanese Photo mags.
ZI is a beautifully designed camera, too bad the Germen can't do it by themselfs, they may priced them $2,400 per body (still a lot cheaper then M7) because they are MADE in GERMANY!!!
Like the Japanese ad sez, Zeiss Ikon Hou-de-soh, a 'competent opponent'. The ads did not mention Leica, and from Leica's POV, ZI is a cheap camera.
OT/ Next page from the ZI ads, from 9-05 Asahi Kamera magazine is the works from one of my admired photographer, Suda Issei, from his ANOTHER PLACE photos, I didn't see his work for a while, he uses a Ricoh Auto Half E, about $40, I would say. Brilliant as always, his works.
I am told by Robert White who has visited the production facility at Cosina that the Ikon is a very different product to the Bessa. As ZeissFan correctly states, the lenses are new designs and are in no way related to the CV lenses. The camera body is also very different. Just as in any industry, some parts are sourced from the same third party supplier. In ths case, I understand that the shutter blades are made by Copal (spelling?) as there is no sense reinventing the wheel and producing a unique one just for this camera. Of course it could be done but not if you want to hit any sensible price point. I am sure that some one else make the screws too and you might find them on other products as well - so what? Just because they are made by the same company does not make them the same product.
I suspect all we really learn from such folks is the profundity of their ignorance. The empty vessel sounds the loudest.
Huck Finn
11-12-2005, 15:48
Yes, Huck
you are paranoid. it's amazing how much stuff you are imagining that simply does not exist.
all of the new new ZM lineup with a serial number (camera bodies or lenses) leave the factory with a hand signed inspection certificate by Zeiss Quality Control. If it does not pass, the problem is fixed, or the sample is destroyed in evaluation to get to the cause of the problem. There is no such thing as new ZM products which leave the factory without passing Zeiss QC.
Stephen Gandy
Yes, we agree that I am paranoid. Believe it or not, the essence of what I posted was told to me by a dealer. It's great to have such bad information countered by someone who is knowledgable.
Thank you, Stephen, OTOH for such great information. It's just the kind of insight we've been dying to obtain. Can you tell us more of what you learned from your tour of the Cosina factory?
Regards,
Huck
Folks sometimes speak of Cosina as if they were the Sigma of the RF world. To tell you the truth, the two LTM lenses I have from them are pretty darn good.
For what it's worth, had I to choose between buying a Voigtlander or possibly a Zeiss Ikon from B&H Photo Video and Stephen Gandy, guess which one I would choose. When I order a lens from CameraQuest it usually gets here in 2 days and the shipping cost are reasonable. Plus, he answers emails faster than I can get back to my computer.
I suppose the bad mouthing for Cosina started back when they do OEM for all other camera manufactorers in the entry market segment, such as FM10 for Nikon. Though the camera itself is fully functional, it lacks the 'feel' of a high quality camera when compared to FM2/3a and such. Even when Bessa-L was first out (I used to own one, but sold it after 2 weeks), it resembles the FM10, only without the prism and reflex mirror. Such impressions are hard to shake off without paying close attention to what is happening recently, especially when ZI had been vaporware only until a week ago.
Cosina may not be Lexus, but Toyota didn't start ou as Lexus either.
Are Apple Powerbooks the same quality as Dell or Gateway because both are made by OEM manufacturers in Taiwan by either Quanta or Asustek?
Folks sometimes speak of Cosina as if they were the Sigma of the RF world. To tell you the truth, the two LTM lenses I have from them are pretty darn good.
For what it's worth, had I to choose between buying a Voigtlander or possibly a Zeiss Ikon from B&H Photo Video and Stephen Gandy, guess which one I would choose. When I order a lens from CameraQuest it usually gets here in 2 days and the shipping cost are reasonable. Plus, he answers emails faster than I can get back to my computer.
But then Sigma lenses are pretty damn good and great value for money, as long as you stick to the pro series :)
Hello:
A happy user of a 25mm Skopar, I look forward to a comparison with the F2.8 ZI. If it surpasses the Skopar at 5.6 paternity (or descent) will not be an issue.
yours
Frank
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.