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Huck Finn
10-21-2005, 18:53
I spent a couple of hours at PhotoPlus Expo in New York yesterday doing what any good photog would want to do in the Big Apple. I tried to beat the Three Card Monty Players on Eighth Avenue but somehow lost. I watched the famous Dancing Chicken on Mott Street in Chinatown. More importantly I watched the tourists try to play tic-tac-toe against the Chicken. They lose ever time. But the real fun comes when you watch their reaction: "But the chicken went first!!" I kid you not. God's honest truth.

But I did do some photography related stuff. I made it a point to stop at the Fujifilm & Kodak booths so that I could pick up free film. Kodak didn't have a long line of people like me looking for free hand-outs this year because they didn't advertise that they were giving away free film. Fuji went one step better. Instead of giving me the film, they took my name, scanned my registration card, & then told me that they would e-mail me the film. No joke. Yes, friends, it's all gone digital.

After losing at 3-card-monty, visiting the cult of the dancing chicken, & seeking free hand-outs, I decided to get down to business. I visited the Leica booth just to see what I couldn't afford to buy. Bad enough that they were showing an M7 which I couldn't afford now that the price is approaching $4000 - jusk kidding; it won't be $4000 until next year - but they were showing it with the equally unaffordable motor drive attached. I asked about the digital M & found that they were able to say "no comment" in 7 languages. It will be out in 2006. Nothing else is known on this side of the Atlantic. I then took time to listen to the shutter. Uh huh.

I then sauntered over to the Hasselblad booth, armed with my intimidating set of questions devised by the best minds on RFF. As soon as I pulled out my set of index cards, I was greeted by Kornelius Muller, Marketing Manager, Camera Lens Division at Carl Zeiss AG: "Oh, you must be Huck Finn. I've been expecting you." Somehow I suspected that my cover had been blown. The good news is that the good folks at Carl Zeiss AG read RFF. The bad news is that Herr Muller's staff had prepared him in advance with our questions. So, we shook hands, exchanged business cards, & had a good chuckle over the whole thing. We were joined by Erland Pettersson, Hasselblad's Product Manager, Camera Systems, whom I had met here last year & who has answered a continuous stream of e-mails during the past year with an endless supply of patience. The two gentlemen were very gracious in giving me their time & welcomed all questions. They encouraged any of us to address any additional questions directly to them via e-mail (info@zeissikon.com).

Both of these men were nothing if not enthusiastic about this new camera line. Below are their replies to our questions as well as my impressions from handling the camera & lenses:

DIGITAL - There are no plans for a digital ZI any time in the near future. The feeling at Zeiss is that the public expects to obtain the full benefit of Zeiss lenses & that this will not be possible until a full frame sensor is available. End of story.

SHUTTER LIFE - The shutter was tested for a MINIMUM of 50,000 cycles. The reps stressed that this is only a minimum because they stopped testing after 50,000 cycles.

SHUTTER NOISE - To my ear, it sounds like a modified Bessa. Not as harsh but still a "click", not Leica's short "clunk." I brought my R2 for comparison & even at 1/60, there seem to be 2 parts to the Bessa sound. The ZI was a single click. I was okay with it, but this has never been a big deal for me.

LENS HOODS - Their benefit is as much for protection of the lens as for shade. Zeiss coatings typically make flare a non-issue in my experience. I didn't get an answer about why they are priced as they are, but the decision not to include them with the lenses was based on a couple of factors. First, making the hood optional keeps the price of the lens lower. Given that each hood fits 2 different lenses, consumers not only have the option to forego a hood entirely but they can also choose to use a single hood on more than one lens - 50 & 35, for example. Second, inclusion of the hood with the lens can contribute to delays in product availability because it adds a component required for a complete product package. Zeiss chose to avoid any such potential delays that might stem from delays in production of lens hoods.

CLOSE FOCUS - The camera has a close focus distance of 0.7 meters. The 21, 25, & 28 lenses have a minimum focus distance of 0.5 meters. The rangefinder cannot be used to focus this last 0.2 meters, so the photographer must scale focus, zone focus, or measure the distance to use the closest focus capabilities of these lenses. Alternatively, the photographer can choose simply to use 0.7 meters as their minimum focus distance. The 35, 50, & 85 mm lenses have a minimum focus distance of 0.7 meters. The 15 has a minimum focus distance of 0.3 meters but is not rangefinder coupled.

28/2.8 BIOGON & the CLE - The Zeiss people could not comment on the compatibility of this lens with the CLE because they have not tried it with this camera. We were able to compare the Biogon with a 28/2.8 Elmarit & the Biogon seems to intrude slightly more into the camera body - a hair more. We guessed about 1.5 mm.

LEICA COMPATIBILITY - The ZM lenses are fully compatible with Leica M bodies.

VF/RF FLARE - I tried to get the rangefinder patch to flare & was unable to do so. Another customer tried & had the same result. We also did not find a situation in which the RF patch disappeared. This of course was the case with convention hall lighting.

STRAP LUGS - The strap lugs are located on the side but toward the front. Leica lugs are more centered midway along the side. CV lugs are on the extreme sides of the front. None of the samples had a strap on it, so there was really no way to tell, but the reps thought that it was designed to hang straight up & down with a ZM lens on it. The lens really seems to be the key. Believe it or not, my R2 hangs straight up & down with a chrome Leica 50 Summicron on it. But this is a heavy lens. With a CV 28/3.5, on the other hand, it tilts back.

LENS NOTES - The German made lenses (85/2 & 15/2.8) will be available only in black.The 15 will be available by the end of this month (October) & the 85 by the end of the year.

28 FRAMELINES - I had remembered these as being fully viewable with glasses. They are not. Without glasses & with your eye pressed up against the viewfinder, the full 28 framlines can be seen. In retrospect, I think that I remembered them as being easily viewable because it is really no different than a 28 mm lens on my SLR. 35 mm framelines were fully viewable with glasses - just barely with my glasses. A lot depends on the shape of the lenses on your glasses & how close to your eyes the frames sit.

TTL FLASH - No.

METERING PATTERN - This question was referred to the new Zeiss Ikon brochure for a detailed explanation, complete with diagrams. Unfortunately it is not yet available. It is expected back from the printer in 2-3 weeks & should be available at your Zeiss Ikon dealer or from Hasselblad in your country or region.

AVAILABILITY - It will be shipped from Sweden the first week in November - silver only & should be in stores by mid-November or so. (October 29 in Japan in silver & black.) Black will be available outside Japan after the limited edition has been sold, anticipated to be some time after the first of the year.

BEST LENS - Erland Pettersson highly recommends 25/2.8 Biogon. No distortion. No light fall-off. Excellent sharpness of even small details. Pictures taken with this lens are limited in the size to which they can be enlarged only by the resolution capabilities of the film.

QUALITY CONTROL - Carl Zeiss AG has set demanding standards for this camera system. Delays have been related to additional time needed to meet these standards. Products will only be released for sale when they meet the standards set. Every lens, for example is individually checked & tested before it is approved for distribution. No spot checking or sampling. Frankly, QC would seem to be what much of the additional cost is for.

INDIVIDUAL IMPRESSIONS - When I saw a prototype last year, I had some concerns. The back door lock seemed flimsy, as did the frame selection lever. Neither wa a problem on the cameras I saw yesterday. Everything was buttoned up tightly & worked properly. These cameras were fully functioning.

The viewfinder is bright, clear, & uncluttered, with white brightlines for framing & a white RF patch for focusing. On the lower right side of the viewfinder, a white number designates the framelines that have been selected. On the left side, a small red number indicates the shutter speed. When in manual mode, a second number flashes, indicating the camera's shutter speed recommendation only if the selected shutter speed is different. These numbers are unobtrusive & there is nothing else in the viewfinder.

The camera feels comfortable in the hand. Everything is easily reached including the AE lock button which sits in the upper middle of the back of the camera just where my thumb could press it. The camera is on the lighter side. It weighs 460 grams - heavier than a Bessa, lighter than a Leica M. The back corners are rounded, so the hand curves around it easily. Squared off in the front felt a little different but didn't interfere with using any of the camera's functions.

The camera felt solidly built. I liked it & am ready to buy one.

That decision was easy. Now beating the Chinatown Chicken in Tic TAc Toe is another matter. For anyone who hasn't realized it, it doesn't matter if the chicken goes first! It's a chicken. You're a human being; that's got to count for something of an advantage. So why does the chicken always win?

Cheers,
Huck

wlewisiii
10-21-2005, 19:15
Thank you for this post but

Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I so want a ZI body with a 35, 50, 85 (all ZI) and just because I like them, a 135. A lotto win is, probably, the only way that'll happen. These are the only M items that have ever interested me. I've used M camera's and come away underwhelmed. I wonder if that would happen again? I just don't know and I really wish I had the spare $$$$ to find out.

William

bmattock
10-21-2005, 19:58
Incredible information! Thanks very much for this excellent report.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

PS - I had a feeling folks in the industry were reading RFF - that would explain all the emails I get from certain insiders.

jlw
10-21-2005, 20:03
As soon as I pulled out my set of index cards, I was greeted by Kornelius Muller, Marketing Manager, Camera Lens Division at Carl Zeiss AG: "Oh, you must be Huck Finn. I've been expecting you."

Thanks for the great report!

When I read the above, I couldn't help thinking it sounded a bit like a James Bond movie. I picture Kornelius Muller as a heavy-set, florid individual with a menacing scar... or possibly seated in a wheelchair and stroking a white cat... who speaks with a strong accent:

"Ah, Mister Finn. Ve haff been [menacing pause] expectink you."

HUCK: "Do you expect me to talk?"

MULLER: "No, Mister Finn, I expect you to DIE. Hahahahahaha..." [switches on gigantic Zeiss laser]

HUCK: "Suppose I tell you I know all about... the Digital Ikon...?"

MULLER: [abruptly shutting off laser] "Zere IS no Digital Ikon! Vhere did you get zis information?"

HUCK: [cagily] "Let's say... certain well-informed sources on the RFF forum."

MULLER: "Ah. Ve shall see. Guards! Take him avay."

And now they're coming after US...

Huck Finn
10-21-2005, 20:03
Incredible information! Thanks very much for this excellent report.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

PS - I had a feeling folks in the industry were reading RFF - that would explain all the emails I get from certain insiders.


Thanks, Bill. :)

Huck

aizan
10-21-2005, 20:17
Wow, thanks for the awesome report! I'm ready to replace my M2 with one, but not my Hexar RF. Was there any other benefit to the high eye-point viewfinder?

Huck Finn
10-21-2005, 20:27
Thanks for the great report!

When I read the above, I couldn't help thinking it sounded a bit like a James Bond movie. I picture Kornelius Muller as a heavy-set, florid individual with a menacing scar... or possibly seated in a wheelchair and stroking a white cat... who speaks with a strong accent:

"Ah, Mister Finn. Ve haff been [menacing pause] expectink you."

HUCK: "Do you expect me to talk?"

MULLER: "No, Mister Finn, I expect you to DIE. Hahahahahaha..." [switches on gigantic Zeiss laser]

HUCK: "Suppose I tell you I know all about... the Digital Ikon...?"

MULLER: [abruptly shutting off laser] "Zere IS no Digital Ikon! Vhere did you get zis information?"

HUCK: [cagily] "Let's say... certain well-informed sources on the RFF forum."

MULLER: "Ah. Ve shall see. Guards! Take him avay."

And now they're coming after US...


ROTFLMAO :D :D :D

back alley
10-21-2005, 21:35
great info huck!
well presented too.

must have been a bit freaky to have that greeting, eh?

oh and if any industry insiders are reading this...i'd like to be contacted too ;)

joe

bobofish
10-21-2005, 23:20
If any industry insiders are reading, I'd like a freebie.

I'll even test it for you, and write nice things about it.

A couple lenses wouldn't hurt either.

Mazurka
10-22-2005, 00:02
CLOSE FOCUS - The camera has a close focus distance of 0.7 meters. The 21, 25, & 28 lenses have a minimum focus distance of 0.5 meters. The rangefinder cannot be used to focus this last 0.2 meters,

If the rangefinder/viewfinder can't handle distances below 0.7m, there is little point in having those lenses focus so close where precision is most needed.

Muller didn't give any explanation about the discrepancy, right? I guess they are too embarrased to admit to overestimating the finder's capability and that they only found out about it a few months ago. :(

Well at least the rangefinder is flare-resistant. It remains to be seen whether it's flare-proof. :cool:

Gerold
10-22-2005, 00:09
Huck - thanks alot for this well written and to the point report. You definitely got yourself in the front row of nominees for the 2005 rangefinder market scout medal :D

I reckon my Zeiss Ikon evaluation will be a thirty second thing: One peek through the finder. If the eye relief is right > Buy.

Now folks, go get those limited edition bodies quickly ... so that the black ones can come !

Cheers G

bobofish
10-22-2005, 00:11
it'd be interesting to know if it was indeed a screwup. Perhaps someday we'll know.

Perhaps it is also an attempt to make the ZM lenses fully compatible with the later Z-I-2? (that's just wild speculation of course)

Frank Granovski
10-22-2005, 00:51
Great hands-on update. Thanks!

:angel: For the longest time now I wanted to get my hands on the new Ikon to fondle and kick its tires. I've been holding off buying an R3A for my M lenses---although I bid on one at e-bay. I should go and see where the bids are. :bang:

bobofish
10-22-2005, 01:16
This thing certainly looks like a lot of camera for the money, at least as far as rangefinders go.

From what I've seen, the ZM lenses are fantastic as well. Anybody who pities Leica for the beating they're probablly going to take with these products is probablly naive.

But since I am naive, I do pity Leica. I am realistic enough however to know that it's Leica's own fault.

I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that if the ZI goes well, Contax will again see the light of day soon enough. Maybe people'll call it Fujitax, or Contuji

p.s. Thanks Huck!

Socke
10-22-2005, 01:38
Huck, thanks a bundle! Very informative and superbly written.

Now I know I realy wan't one, too!

rover
10-22-2005, 02:02
I don't really have the time this morning to read this, so off to the printer it goes to be digested throughout the day.

aizan
10-22-2005, 02:14
huck, just checking, but was the camera plated or just painted?

darkkavenger
10-22-2005, 02:42
can't wait to see the black bodies!

dcsang
10-22-2005, 03:08
Thanks for the report Huck :)

That 85 sounds nice to me :)

Dave

jlw
10-22-2005, 06:08
If the rangefinder/viewfinder can't handle distances below 0.7m, there is little point in having those lenses focus so close where precision is most needed.

Muller didn't give any explanation about the discrepancy, right? I guess they are too embarrased to admit to overestimating the finder's capability and that they only found out about it a few months ago. :(

I doubt if they overestimated anything. Rangefinder mechanisms usually have a mechanical close-focusing limit determined by how far the swing arm can extend from the body. (0.7 meters actually is unusually close.)

And to me it DOES make sense to have lenses -- especially wide-angle lenses such as the ones Huck mentioned -- that focus closer than the RF coupling range. At such close distances, you don't really need a rangefinder -- you can focus by measuring. And the DOF of a 21mm or 25mm lens (or a 28mm at small stops) is enough to cove minor errors.

Another benefit is that you can use the "extra" close-focus distance for hyperfocal focusing (focusing within the DOF range.) For example, suppose you're shooting at f/8 and the farthest part of the subject you care about is 0.7m away, but you want as much depth as you can get in front of that distance. You'd put the 0.7m mark against the f/8 mark on the far side of the DOF scale; this would set the lens to give as much depth as possible in front of 0.7m. There would be no way to do this if the focusing mount could not be set to distances closer than 0.7.

peter_n
10-22-2005, 07:59
Huck thank you for the extremely comprehensive report. That 25mm sounds good... :)

zeos 386sx
10-22-2005, 08:07
This is what Leica has nightmares about.

hth
10-22-2005, 08:22
Great report! When reading it, I so regretted not lining up for one of the bodies. :(
I hope I will come to senses soon and realize that I already have too many M bodies...

I do not get the chicken thing though, can you explain or show some pictures or it?

/Håkan

yossarian
10-22-2005, 08:28
This is the most entertaining thing I've read since the last Carl Hiaasen novel. You could probably expand this to book length, huckfinn.

yossarian :D

Huck Finn
10-25-2005, 17:26
huck, just checking, but was the camera plated or just painted?

It definitely is not plated. The properties of magnesium don't allow plating - or at least make it so expensive to do as to make it cost prohibitive. The website calls it "varnished magnesium." Sounds like some sort of painting process to me, which is very feasible with magnesium.

Cheers,
Huck

Huck Finn
10-26-2005, 00:35
In the list of questions given to me by RFF members was one about shutter life, which I overlooked when I wrote the post last week. I have since edited it to include the answer to that question. Short answer is: "tested for a minimum of 50,000 cycles."

Cheers,
Huck

Huck Finn
10-26-2005, 06:25
Since much of our discussion of the past few days was lost in the switch back & forth between the two servers. I thought I'd post an update on my thoughts on "build quality."

So often I read that an experienced photographer can evaluate build quality just by the "feel" of the camera and by how "solid" it is. While some of that has to do with evaluating operational issues, such as how easy it is to turn the shutter speed dial while you're looking through the viewfinder, much of it has simply to do with the weight of the camera. Leica continues to make their M-cameras from brass just as they did 50 years ago when this was probably the best metal for the job. However, they don't make all their cameras of brass, so there must be good reasons to look at other alternatives.

Brass is a soft metal, so it must be used in heavier amounts to achieve the same strength as some other more modern metals. Titanium was used for the Contax G & is well known for its excellent strength-to-weight ratio although it is expensive. Carl Zeiss AG & Cosina chose magnesium for the Zeiss Ikon, so I decided to do some research on magnesium since the weight difference between the ZI & the M7 is almost entirely due to the selection of magnesium instead of brass.

Magnesium is the lightest structural metal available, but its combination of low density & good mechanical strength results in a high strength-to-weight ratio. Magnesium alloys can absorb energy elastically, making them resistant to shock. They also have good dent resistance & high damping capacity. Modern alloys have added other elements for additional strength & have eliminated pure magnesium's problem of lack of resistance to corrosion. Such alloys have also made magnesium the easiest of the structural alloys to machine, resulting in significant cost savings in the manufacturing process. Some of its common usages today are for wrist watch bodies, housings in power tools, and parts in automobiles such as valve & timing covers, brackets, clutch-transfer housings, & windshield-wiper motor housings.

I'm convinced that the prejudice toward heavier metals as an indicator of a more solid build is erroneous & in the case of brass vs magnesium adds unnecessary cost. The issue of weight depends on the usage for which the camera is intended & is not necessarily good or bad. When thinking of real world problems with build quality, they typically have nothing to do with the "heft" of the camera. Some examples that come to mind are the repeated misalignment problems with the hefty Konica Hexar RF & some CV Bessa models, problems with dust in the viewfinder of the M7 due to faulty seals, the notorious disappearing focus patch on the M6 due to uncontrolled flare, and the problems of loose front elements on some recent Leica lenses due to the use of glue instead of screws to secure these elements. I hope that Zeiss has addressed these issues with their quality control program & with tests for vibration & shock in their "torture chamber" (environmental testing lab). I see no way of evaluating these issues by inspecting a camera - unless parts are falling off - so I will look for reports from users when they get to handle them & put them through their paces in the next few weeks.

Cheers,
Huck

Rico
10-27-2005, 00:06
Mg also burns at a high temperature with a brilliant light. I've read some amusing stories from the farm that tickle my pyrotechnic impulses. Individuals buy old VW wrecks, haul the engine block into a back field, and light it off. From the descriptions, I'm quite sure the effect can be seen from space! Makes me nervous to see Mg gaining use in these structural applications - especially where sparks and short-circuits may arise.

Socke
10-27-2005, 00:38
Rico, those are pretty old VW wrecks! They changed from Mg to Al in the 1960s.

On the other hand, if electric sparcs from a flashplug hot enough to cause a fuel air mixture to explode didn't ignite the VW engines, I think I'm save in the environment where I use a camera :-)

Huck Finn
10-27-2005, 03:15
Magnesium is generally used in applications up to 200 degrees, at which point alloys are still dimensionslly stable, & in some applications up to 350 degrees. For specialized applications, alloys are created to combine Mg with other elements for greater strength. Given that Zeiss tests for performance in temperature extremes, I would think they have this covered. See "Making of . . .", Chapter 4 at www.zeissikon.com.

Advances in Mg alloys in recent years have resulted in a greater number of applications. Typical applications of Mg gravity include components for wheels for sports & race cars. The melting point for Mg is 1105 degrees. I think we're safe. ;)

Cheers,
Huck

bobofish
10-27-2005, 04:09
The use of the "torture chamber" inspires quite a bit of confidence in me, I must say.

I had a chance to see such a torture chamber in action a few years ago, when Hewlett Packard donated a tract of land as well as a large amount of equipment to my college. One such torture chamber made its way into our ceramics department. When I heard some of the stories about how things are tested in those chambers, I thought to myself that it must be nearly impossible to develop a product to survive such tests....but at the facility that HP donated, they made heart valves and such things... Nowthe torture chamber is used for far less glamorous purposes, namely slowly drying out clay.

Don't underestimate the engineering that will have gone into a camera that can withstand those tests.

(of course one hopes that the ZI eventually actually passed the tests...)

ZeissFan
10-27-2005, 07:45
I'm reposting the link (http://pages.prodigy.net/mm-elek/cameras/comparison.htm) to the table that compares the Zeiss Ikon, Bessa R2A/R3A and the Leica M7.

The metering and flash systems of the Leica appear to be more sophisticated than the Zeiss Ikon and Bessas. There might be some changes to this table when the camera finally arrives. As it is, these are specs taken from the respective Web sites.

The one change is the weight of the Zeiss Ikon. Originally quoted at 500 grams, Huck says the Hasselblad rep reported that it's now 460 grams.

Edit: corrected "Bessar" to read "Bessa"

jano
10-27-2005, 08:22
It's ever so slightly smaller than the Leica Ms? How strange, all pictures I've seen make the camera actually look bigger (significantly bigger, like several mms) *shrug*

vincentbenoit
10-27-2005, 10:40
I'm reposting the link (http://pages.prodigy.net/mm-elek/cameras/comparison.htm) to the table that compares the Zeiss Ikon, Bessar R2A/R3A and the Leica M7.Thanks for the link. Always useful to have a side-by-side specs comparison.
Cheers
Vincent

ZeissFan
10-27-2005, 11:50
My dad, who was a machinist, would sometimes bring home metal shavings. He would show us how quickly some would burn. So he would put them in an ashtray and light them. I can't recall if it was magnesium -- don't think it was. I'll have to ask my brother. But man, that stuff burned white hot and in just a few seconds!

wlewisiii
10-27-2005, 12:32
I am reminded how once when I was much younger a friend and I mixed up a small batch of Thermite (powdered aluminum and powdered iron oxide (rust :) ) and ignited it with a strip of magnesium.

That was one short, hot & blindingly brilliant fire.

I really don't know how some of us survive to (physical at least) adulthood... :eek: :bang:

William

Socke
10-27-2005, 12:44
We did those experiments too :-)

We had a herbicide then which burned very easyly when mixed with sugar. Some copper tubing filled with this stuff made a realy impressive firefountain. With both ends tightly closed, it made a nice bomb.
(Now the NSA is realy after me) And with some sulphur and an oxydizer I won't name here we made explosives strong enough to blast a medium tree.
Steelwool with lighterfluid is nice too :-)

Back to magnesium alloys for camera housings, I've yet to hear from a burning Canon 10d or 20d.

It is much harder to ignite a solid block of any material than a swarf (looked that up, it means a chip in metalurgy if my dictionary is right) or chip. To light a bonfire you first light smaller chips and go to bigger pieces later.

taffer
10-27-2005, 12:58
An incredible report Huck, thanks for sharing !

If the ZI people do everything like they informed you on your meeting, the ZI is going to be a bomb ! (to keep with the current theme :) )

peter_n
10-27-2005, 17:14
I also did the weed-killer and sugar thing... What fun! ;)

ZeissFan
10-27-2005, 19:27
My brother and I used to open packs of firecracker and create a trail of gunpowder around the basement. Just like in the movies. Then we'd light it and whoosh!

We also did this thing, where we put a firecracker between two blocks of wood ... uh, never mind. It was a pretty dangerous stunt. I'd hate to think someone might actually try it. Amazing that we all have our fingers and toes intact.

Frank Granovski
10-29-2005, 19:42
Magnesium is used as the burning agent in flares. It burns white hot, and you can damage your eyes if you don't wear protective goggles. Hopefully the Ikon doesn't come with a timed trigger mechanism. :D