View Full Version : Is there such a thing as a fast, sharp, flare-resistant *and* smooth-bokeh lens?
OK, here's a real challenge.
Find me a set of two lenses: 50mm and 35mm.
Both must be in LTM (leica thread/screw mount a.k.a. M39). They must share the same filter size AND the same lens shade. The lens shade must be of the twist-on or snap-on type; not one that screws into the filter thread. Both lenses must have aperture click-stops (as opposed to the Jupiter-8, for instance).
Each lens must be faster than f/2. They must be sharp (hi-res) by today's standards, and extremely flare-resistant when shooting a backlit scene. They must have enough aperture blades to yield pleasant bokeh.
Even with all the equipment I will be selling to fund these lenses, price is still a significant consideration. As a general guideline, $300 per lens would be painful, but possible. A battered lens barrel is not a problem, so long as the optics and mechanics are flawless.
If anyone manages to squeeze any serious recommendations into these tight guidelines, I'll be quite impressed. Thanks in advance, eh? :)
My personal opinion - these are both standard lenses why not spend $600 on a really kickass lens than $600 on two slightly inferior lenses -IMHO one really good lens will give you far more pleasure than two less good ones. I've never used one but maybe the 40/1.5 nokton would fit the bill?
JoeFriday
10-15-2005, 15:19
The new Zeiss lenses are supposed to be spectacular, very flare resistant and sharper than any sane person needs
not faster than f2, however.. and definitely not under $300 a lens
The new Zeiss lenses are supposed to be spectacular, very flare resistant and sharper than any sane person needs
not faster than f2, however.. and definitely not under $300 a lens
There aren't many sane people on this forum :D
Brian Sweeney
10-15-2005, 15:22
The "bokeh" on the 40mm F2 Summicron is probably smoother than the 40mm F1.4 Nokton. I used the Summicron with some strong backlit subjects, and it did a good job. I would place it as a candidate.
Toby, that's good advice. I wonder how guesstimating a 40mm FOV would work with my M3's 50mm framelines... anyone got experience?
The lens shade must be of the twist-on or snap-on type; not one that screws into the filter thread.
Hey, I had some candidates but the sentence above turned them out.
Time to go back to the requirement analysis board ? :)
Brian - thanks. I want to get back to the low-light photography I used to do back when I used SLR (Nikon 50mm f/1.4 shot wide open). Is the bokeh on the Nokton f/1.4 noticably bad, or just less fantastic than the 'cron's?
Brian Sweeney
10-15-2005, 15:38
I Googled this:
http://www.pbase.com/juergenkook/bok_voigt_leica
I do not have the Nokton, I have considered getting one. The Bokeh is "Harsh", as it is in my Nikkor 5cm F1.4's. If I want smooth out of focus for cluttered backgrounds, I'd grab the 8.5cm f2 anyway.
The Nikkor 5cm F1,4:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/3204/c7nikkor5_swnga.jpg
the Nikkor 8.5cm F2:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/3204/C7NIK85.JPG
5cm F2 Type I Rigid Summicron:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/3204/summicron50a.jpg
I'll have to hook up my scanning computer for the 40mm Summi shots.
As per the m3's frame lines - my pentax 67 gives about 80 - 85% of the total image with a standard prism and with experience I've learned to guessimate extremely accurately. The thing to do is simple. Just practice with the lens and your visualisation will adjust to estimating correctly - the main thing is to limit yourself lenswise for a while if you buy a 40 use it almost exclusively for a month or so then it will be second nature
JoeFriday
10-15-2005, 15:50
I've been told to use the entire M3 viewfinder as 40mm field of view.. probably shouldn't have your main image too tight to the edge, tho
OK, I think I'm going to go with Toby's advice and narrow it down to a single 40mm lens instead of the other two lengths.
This pretty much narrows it down to the Nokton f/1.4 and the Rokkor (aka Summicron) f/2.
An Internet search seems to show an unequivocal disparagement for the Nokton's bokeh. On the other hand, I really could use that one extra full stop.
Decisions, decisions...
JoeFriday
10-15-2005, 15:57
both are nice.. but there is a noticeable difference in the bokeh.. choose wisely ;)
Trawl around the gallery. I've seen some images with the nokton that are really excellent. I think this bokeh thing is just so much hot air. If the image is strong enough no one gives a toss about small nuances in the bokeh. Remeber there are lots of people who know a lot about cameras and lenses but not so many who know about pictures.
Well, I put a WTB on the Nokton. Thanks, guys.
Raising a closed fist to his mouth to buffer a cough,
Kahh(rokkor)hough
I own a 40/2 Summicron and agree that is a truly fantastic lens. That said, if I had the money, I'd probably grab a(nother) 40/2 CLE Rokkor for improved coatings (and for pure GAS, what else) PLUS a Nokton 40/1.4 SC or MC just out of curiosity.
And even if it is an f/2 lens, with moderately fast film and a low amount of daily caffeine, f/2 is fast enough :)
http://www.pbase.com/taffer/image/50461459.jpg
i'd look for the m-rokkor for the cle, just because it's called the "water lens". with a name like that, it's gotta be especially nice.
The problem with the Rokkor/Summicron is that I'd immediately get GAS for a Leica CL to go with it. OTOH, I could always sell my M3 to finance a CL...
Somebody shoot me! :bang:
BANG !
:D
Beware of the CL, it's addictive.
An interesting question, first thoughts were for an older summicron but a bayonet or push on hood with an LTM mount throws that out. For the money the CV lenses either the 1.7 35 Ultron or the 50 comes to mind, both with reasonable Bokeh, better than the 40 but they are more prone to flare than the Leicas.
The question is looking for the ideal and frankly for the money available I think the CV 35 and 50 lenses would do it the best, modern optics with decent multi coatings for sensible prices.
An interesting question, first thoughts were for an older summicron but a bayonet or push on hood with an LTM mount throws that out.
A series VI hood with 42mm push on adaptor will fit older Summicrons. I use on on mine.
Justin Viiret
10-15-2005, 16:57
I think hoot's guidelines are a little tight: how many 35mm lenses faster than f/2 are out there? And then, how many of that list are LTM? :)
That said, if you're willing to compromise and accept M-mount, I add my voice to those praising the Nokton 40/1.4. It's small, fast and absolutely flare-resistant -- I don't have the hood, as it's been on backorder here in Oz for ages -- and I've never managed to get it to flare significantly, ever.
My guess would be that you won't find a 50 and a 35 that share the same hood, but are both faster than f2. Except for the speed requirement, the 50/2 summicron and the 35/3.5 summaron share the same hood, filter size, etc...
Well, I put a WTB on the Nokton. Thanks, guys.
Wait... what happened to the LTM spec?
I have the 40 Nokton and really like it... don't know if I've any pics with this lens posted... but it's small, fast and sharp. Cannot say whether the Rokkor is better at USD 350 because I haven't used one. As for the FOV/FL: when I shoot this lens--and why I would--it's for those times one wants a "tight 35." OOF/SOFA/Bokeh is good, but best after 2.8.
Framing with your Leica M works fine, with time.
rgds,
Dave
EDIT: added a couple 40 Nokton pics, both at 5.6 and all I have to upload atm. And yes, many CV lenses are LTM, but a few are M-mount. Oh, and both of these shot with a Bessa-T, not my Leica M.
Rover, thanks I stand corrected, I was not aware that the series VI hood with 42mm push on adaptor would work. Looks like another item for my shopping list. :) Thanks again for the info.
back alley
10-15-2005, 17:07
canon 35/1.8 and 50/1.8
small, sharp, like rover said you can use a 42mm push on hood or canon's screw in hood or gandy's screw in hood (my favourite)
bokeh is a waste of energy to discuss...
joe
The 40mm Rokkor lens is one hell of a lens, compact, flare resistance, intresting FOV, very sharp. I used it with an M3, just taped up the frame iluminator window and worked fine. I attach here a backlighted image in a grosery store, at F2 1/30 (the pic itself aint much), second one is at about F5.6, afternoon time, 3rd is at F2 about 1/8 at night done by street-store lights.
The bokeh issue, I think its ok on the rokkor. On the other hand I like the one of the nokton 50/1.5, and sold my DR (same as rigid cron, known for its good bokeh) cause gave horrid double lines and donut like highlights, therefor after reading so many subjective opinions about what lens has what bokeh......... I figured you just have to try it by yourself and find your lens.
On the other hand every time I pick up a book of one of the classics I realize that the focus, sharp images, correct exposure, aberrations free, are just futile against one good photograph.
I have seen great photos that are slightly out of focus, so slow a speed that are a bit smudged and what not, It doesnt matter how bad everything is if you just get the exact moment you want to capture. I say this after being there myself, trying dozens of lens-camera combos, doing tests and sorts with almost every brand you can find nowdays in the market.
Now, after selling 90% of my gear, I just enjoy taking pictures. :D
Diego K.
Wait... what happened to the LTM spec?Um, I thought all C/V lenses were LTM by default, with some additionally existing in M mount.
Lear, those photos speak for themselves. Wow.
richard_l
10-15-2005, 17:14
I use the entire M3 viewfinder with the 40mm Rokkor. I block the framelines illumination window with black tape to eliminate the 50mm framelines.
A CL would be a nice compact camera for hiking and backpacking, but I'm satisfied with the Rokkor on the M3. What a great lens! It's hard to believe they're so cheap.
Hello:
I would like to see an answer to your question as well. Leitz (20.pdf) claims to have met your optical performance criteria, barring the price limitation, in the 75mm Summilux, a psuedonormal or psuedotele.
http://www.leica-camera.com/produkte/msystem/objektive/index_e.html
http://www.leica-camera.com/imperia/md/content/pdf/objektive/datenbltterm-objektive/20.pdf
'Not a truely helpful solution but I believe Pentax also produced a 43mm f1.7 LTM for those with the where with all (not me) for ideal solutions.
yours
Frank
Sigh... looks like I'll be asking Roman to borrow his CL for a few days. I'd hate to have to sell my M3 to finance a CL, though...
Justin Viiret
10-15-2005, 17:51
hoot: I use my 40mm Nokton on my M3, as well, and it's easy; you can use the whole VF, or you can just use the 50mm lines as a "tight" estimate, knowing you'll get a bit more in the frame. Works for me, and it's a nice combination. Sockeyed uses a 40/1.4 on an M3 as well, I think.
More sample pics here, these are all nokton shots, many wide-open:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jviiret/tags/voigtlander40f14nokton/
For a look at the wide-open bokeh, the attached image was taken at f1.4, 1/60, on Fuji Astia. I don't mind the background at all. :)
How about I throw a wrench into the works, and suggest a Canon GIII QL17? It's a 40/1.7, sharp with full manual controls, cheap and small.
Brian Sweeney
10-15-2005, 18:57
> Sigh... looks like I'll be asking Roman to borrow his CL for a few days.
Well, as long as you are getting a CL, might as well get a Canon 50mm F1.5 to go with it. Fits in the case. Then the 40mm is free to use on the M3...
canon 35/1.8 and 50/1.8
small, sharp, like rover said you can use a 42mm push on hood or canon's screw in hood or gandy's screw in hood (my favourite)
bokeh is a waste of energy to discuss...
joe
Or, if you want to go faster, how about Canon 35/1.5, 50/1.4. Both 48mm filters, although the 50/1.4 hood might vignette on the 35/1.5. The 35 would also run more than $300 (probably at least $400).
And the reputation of the 35 is that wide open it's not very sharp. Not sure how it would perform at F2.
Scott
Gabriel M.A.
10-15-2005, 19:24
This is still not meeting your challenge, hoot. You want both 50mm and 35mm lenses in LTM to share the same filter thread size, the same shade hood.
Just trying to bring some focus back to your original challenge. By fast you mean "f/1.9" and wider, or is it "f/2"? Is it f/1.4? My definition is anything f/1.8 and wider. Good "bokeh" I think you're going to find that the Canon f/1.4 or f/1.5 and the Cosina Voigtlaender 35 f/1.7 Ultron are close to meeting your challenge. The filter size are close enough, and I think that you could use a shade for a 35 f/1.4 on both the Ultron and the Canon 50mm f/1.4-1.5 --- the bokeh of the Canon lenses is really nice, and the 35 Ultron is not too shabby.
whaddayathink?
Gabriel M.A.
10-15-2005, 19:30
Or, if you want to go faster, how about Canon 35/1.5, 50/1.4. Both 48mm filters, although the 50/1.4 hood might vignette on the 35/1.5. The 35 would also run more than $300 (probably at least $400).
And the reputation of the 35 is that wide open it's not very sharp. Not sure how it would perform at F2.
Scott
Yeah, there you go. Both Backalley (Joe) and Scott back on track. The "problem" now seems to be the "very sharp" issue. The samples of pics taken with the Canon 50 f/1.5 have enough acuity to pass the "sharpness" test, I think. The filter thread "issue" may be resolved/bridged between lenses by using a stepping ring/adapter.
More money has been spent researching and producing standard 50mm optics for 35mm photography than any other. If I were looking to meet any esoteric criteria, that's the vein I'd be mining. How many manufactures have produced 40's in significant quantities? If you can't find it in a 50, it doesn't exist.
Rover, thanks I stand corrected, I was not aware that the series VI hood with 42mm push on adaptor would work. Looks like another item for my shopping list. :) Thanks again for the info.
It is a much less expensive option too Fred. The hard part is finding that 42mm push on adaptor ring. Once you have that any Series VI hood will do. Look for a round Canon hood for the 50/1.8 and 35mm of some type (it is written on the hood) which will come with the ring. Shop, you can find one for less than $10 sometimes. That hood will do, and, I actually picked up a $2 Kodak Series VI hood in a lot with some filters which is shallower, but does the job well.
When you think of the cost of the old Leitz hoods, these are simple dime store solutions which keep your wallet happy.
Canon hood 50/1.8, 35/2.8, 35/3.2
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9588
ebay item #7553496518 1 day 16 hrs to go. no connections etc.
Canon hood 50/1.8, 35/2.8, 35/3.2
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9588
ebay item #7553496518 1 day 16 hrs to go. no connections etc.
This one has a screw in 40mm adaptor ring. The one to look for if you are going to use it on other lenses has a 42mm push on adaptor ring.
this one is what I was thinking of
http://cgi.ebay.com/WRATTEN-SERIES-VI-SLIPON-ADAPTER_W0QQitemZ7530333656QQcategoryZ30076QQssPag eNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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