M3 and 50mm for under £1000?

[lrochfort]

I'd like to purchase my first M, ideally an M3 and 50mm.

However, I'm on a budget and really don't have more than £1000 to spend. Does this sound feasible to people?

I don't care about looks, a tatty but mechanically sound body would be fine. Likewise for the lens, a Summicron would be nice, but I'd be interested in people's opinions on affordable alternatives.

Many thanks,
Laurence.

[Dylan Hope]

It's certainly possible. I haven't been on the 'bay for Leica gear in a while, but when I was first looking to get into rangefinders, I saw quite a few very ugly but functional M3s go for around 700 USD, and you could always get CV lens or adapt a J8.

Of course, Keh has a bargain M3 (http://www.keh.com/camera/Leica-M-Camera-Bodies/1/sku-LM020100000250?r=FE) right now and a collapsible summicron 50 (http://www.keh.com/camera/Leica-M-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LM069990501900?r=FE).That should come to just within your budget (Including shipping, but I don't know what import fees the UK has). If you are willing to go a few quid over budget, there's a rigid version (http://www.keh.com/camera/Leica-M-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LM06000041812E?r=FE) too

[swmlon]

For sure. I've just checked RedDotCameras and you can get an M3 (£699) + Summicron Collapsible (£335) which comes in at £1034, just a pinch over your budget.

[philipus]

Hi Laurence
I also think this is possible. Personally I wouldn't buy from Ebay but would pick a dealer. Where are you located?
cheers
philip

[Jani_from_Finland]

Just locally someone sold a case with M3 and 35+50+90mm leitz lenses and accesories for about 800€, so sure its possible, usually just need to be a fast buyer =DD

[lrochfort]

It's certainly possible. I haven't been on the 'bay for Leica gear in a while, but when I was first looking to get into rangefinders, I saw quite a few very ugly but functional M3s go for around 700 USD, and you could always get CV lens or adapt a J8.

Of course, Keh has a bargain M3 (http://www.keh.com/camera/Leica-M-Camera-Bodies/1/sku-LM020100000250?r=FE) right now and a collapsible summicron 50 (http://www.keh.com/camera/Leica-M-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LM069990501900?r=FE).That should come to just within your budget (Including shipping, but I don't know what import fees the UK has). If you are willing to go a few quid over budget, there's a rigid version (http://www.keh.com/camera/Leica-M-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LM06000041812E?r=FE) too
That's very useful, thanks Dylan.

By CV do you mean Cosina Voigtlander? Any suggestions for those?

Are the Russian Jupiters well regarded?

Would I get more for my money if I buy an LTM lens?

Cheers,
Laurence.

[S.H.]

I think a M3 for 500/600£ is realistic : you will have a worn but still looking good example, with a recent CLA. It leaves 400£ for a 50mm, which is more than enough. You can have some old ltm Leica, an old Summicron, some ltm nikkors or canons, a second hand modern Voigtlander.
You can still have some ££ left for film, beers, ...

Depends on what you like.

For example I myself bought last year a very clean M4 for 480£ (still had its orginal seal, shutter was spot on but lubricants were a bit dry), and had it overhauled for 150GBP. An M3 should cost less.

[lrochfort]

For sure. I've just checked RedDotCameras and you can get an M3 (£699) + Summicron Collapsible (£335) which comes in at £1034, just a pinch over your budget.
Very interesting!

Are there any disadvantages to the collapsible lenses? Bear in mind I'm not terribly fussy, I won't be making huge enlargements or poring over images with a loupe.

[swmlon]

Also see that Aperture (in London) have an M3 in user condition for £450. That with the Summicron from Red Dot will come in under £800 in total. Enough left over to stockpile on film

[swmlon]

Very interesting!

Are there any disadvantages to the collapsible lenses? Bear in mind I'm not terribly fussy, I won't be making huge enlargements or poring over images with a loupe.

I have the collapsible and it's a great lens and very small when collapsed to easily fit in the bag. The only thing to remember is to un-collapse it when you want to take a photo:bang:

[lrochfort]

Hi Laurence
I also think this is possible. Personally I wouldn't buy from Ebay but would pick a dealer. Where are you located?
cheers
philip
I too am very nervous about eBay. I don't mind remote buying so long as it's a reputable dealer.

I'm in Berkshire, UK.

[sleepyhead]

I think if you wait for a good deal, you could easily find an M3 + collapsible Summicron for under 1000 GBP.

It's a great combo. I personally wouldn't put a Jupiter 8 on an M3. Although the Jupiter can be great optically, the build quality of the two differs so much that I would find it jarring to use. (It all depends how fussy you are, of course!)

[Dylan Hope]

That's very useful, thanks Dylan.

By CV do you mean Cosina Voigtlander? Any suggestions for those?

Are the Russian Jupiters well regarded?

Would I get more for my money if I buy an LTM lens?

Cheers,
Laurence.

Yup, Cosina Voigtlander. I can't personally recommend any CV lenses, Russian lenses or LTM lenses though, since I've never handled any (Hoping to get a hold of an I-22 and I-61 soonish though, but that's a topic for another day). However, Voigtlander lenses are usually pretty good value for money from what I've read, and the main risk you run with older LTM lenses is internal haze, as well as cleaning marks if the glass or coatings are soft. Of course, these often contribute to what some will call the 'leica glow'.

Keh is usually very conservative with its ratings though (I've heard people flabbergasted that gear in a condition normally called "EX+++++++++++^3" on ebay is marked as bargain grade) and if you don't find the gear to be to your taste, I think their policy is a no-questions 6 month return period.

[lrochfort]

I have the collapsible and it's a great lens and very small when collapsed to easily fit in the bag. The only thing to remember is to un-collapse it when you want to take a photo:bang:
The answers are coming in faster than I can respond, thank you everybody.

That £800 combination is extremely tempting....

[Jani_from_Finland]

Ebay is always a gamble, but the most trustworthy sellers i've dealt with has been from the German ebay. Sometimes the items has been shipped before the payment has even transfered.

[RichW]

I bought my M3 one year ago from MWClassic cameras (www.mwclassic.com) for £450, it was excellent condition, I have looked just now and they have a nice one for £695,

My Jupiter-8 50mm lens cost me £25 so in total I spent £475, but it seems that in just a year prices have jumped a bit

Cheers, Richard

[thegman]

Easy, I got my M3 and Summarit for perhaps under £900. Red Dot Cameras, Aperture Photographic, Ffordes, are good places to start.

If you're OK with a Voigtlander lens instead of Leica, it gets easier.

[normclarke]

I can highly recommend the Canon 50mm f:1,8 which can be found for around £150 but be carefull about the condition. Some have haze and should be avoided. I personnally found a good one for £60, that being about 3years ago, I consider the build quality to be near Leitz standard and the performance to be very close.

Best,

normclarke.

[OlliL]

If you're fast:

Grab this one :)

http://photohaus.de/index.php?id=71

(Sorry hyperlinking doesn't work flawlessly with this shop...)

[venchka]

Norm beat me to it. That makes two of us.

If you find a good body that stretches your budget, the all chrome Canon LTM (Leica Thread Mount) 50mm f/1.8 lens is a worthy addition to any camera. You will need an adapter to go from LTM to M mount. They work perfectly. The Nikkor 50/1.4 from the same era as the Canon 50mm lens is very nice. More expensive, but fast & sharp.

Wayne

[jazzwave]

1000GBP?

You will get :
M3 and Zeiss Planar 50/2 ZM (used)
or
M3 and,Canon 50/1.4 LTM +CV 28/2 (used)
or
M3 and Summicron 50/2 ridgid (if u r lucky)
or
M3 and CV 50/1.5 (used)


RFF and GetDpi classified are good place for shopping used gear.



Happy hunting..

~ron~

[Ljós]

If you're fast:

Grab this one :)

http://photohaus.de/index.php?id=71

(Sorry hyperlinking doesn't work flawlessly with this shop...)

Wow, +1 on Olivers tip. Have not dealt with Photohaus.de personally, but they have a good reputation.

Greetings, Ljós

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but if you want a user M3 with a Summicron + a 90 Elmar and a CV 15mm with with viewfinder for your budget figure, feel free to send me a PM. I'm in Wiltshire, so easy to meet up and let you look before you leap.

I trust the moderator will understand this offer is made in the RF spirit. I'd rather get less than the max for the outfit and know it's going to someone who will get the best use out of it.

[lrochfort]

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but if you want a user M3 with a Summicron + a 90 Elmar and a CV 15mm with with viewfinder for your budget figure, feel free to send me a PM. I'm in Wiltshire, so easy to meet up and let you look before you leap.

I trust the moderator will understand this offer is made in the RF spirit. I'd rather get less than the max for the outfit and know it's going to someone who will get the best use out of it.
Thank you very much for the offer.

I'm working out the finances and talking to my wife etc at present, but will certainly bear you in mind.

[philipus]

Hi Laurence

Btw, you're not a 35mm shooter, right? Not that the M3 limits you a lot since you can get goggled lenses but it's (imho) certainly easier to use non-M3s for that focal length.

Since you're in Europe you've got lots of opportunities.

I have bought a few times from Foto Prisma in Bologna (http://www.fotoprisma.bo.it/catalogo.asp?cat=2&sot=1) (Andrea Ricci is very helpful and has reasonable prices) and Leicashop in Vienna also offers great service (Jo Geier is their head of second hand sales and very helpful). Leicashop has an M3 SS for €590 (https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/leica-mkameras-chrom-einfachaufzug-c-1000_1003_100302.html) with a rather attractive serial number (if one's into those things). I've also bought from Peter Loy in London (http://www.peterloy.com/stock-list.php) and received very good service from Peter.

Here are some other options, which I have not bought from but which have been recommended to me: Aperture UK (http://www.apertureuk.com/leica.html) (though their site doesn't load at the moment it seems). I was at Aperture's Rathbone Place location this weekend and they had quite a few things in stock, though I didn't specifically look for M3s. The Classic Camera (http://www.theclassiccamera.com/category_USED_LEICA_M_SYSTEM_LEICA_M_CAMERAS_2.htm ) is another option - they have an M3 SS for £425. Other ones to consider are Ffordes, Foto Ottica Cavour and Newoldcamera (latter two Italian).

And here in Holland have a look at Fotohandel Delfshaven (http://fotohandeldelfshaven.nl/). They currently stock an M3 for €500, an M2 for €450 and a real beater M2 for €350. Plus they have an M4-2 for €550 with what looks like recessed windows, which would mean it is brass and painted :D. They also have plenty of 50mm in stock, like an Elmar 50/2.8 for 350€, a Canon 50/1.2 for 400, and a DR Summicron for 550€.

I should add that I have no connection to either of the above, except that I have bought from the ones indicated. I'm just trying to help you spend money ;)

[moreammo]

Definitely possible, in fact one day soon i am going to post an M3 DS with 50mm Elmar, MR meter and original Leica case for $1200 US which i believe is still just under 1000 Euro's

[lrochfort]

Lots of European options I wasn't aware of, thanks Philipus. I shall definitely have to take my time to peruse.

I don't particularly care for high serial numbers and what have you; I'm not a collector or good enough photographer for that to make a difference!

What are people's opinion of the M2 and M4-2? I don't anticipate shooting 35mm, so the higher magnification on the M3 should suit, but more info is always good.

[joeswe]

Wow, +1 on Olivers tip. Have not dealt with Photohaus.de personally, but they have a good reputation.

Greetings, Ljós

I have personally dealt with Photohaus several times (on location and online), and they are highly recommendable. I think the condition "B" M3 + Elmar for 600 EUR (475 GBP) is quite decent, considering it is from a dealer and you usually get a warranty on these deals (inquire details). You can contact them and ask for more information, they are very friendly people and will tell you more about the exact technical state of the camera.

I would also second Filipus' recommendation for Foto Prisma in Bologna as a place for modestly priced vintage Leica stuff, I have been there personally once and the owner is incredibly nice. The cameras they were selling at the time were in very good shape and very reasonably priced.

Of course it is always best to buy locally but there is nothing wrong in buying online from a respectable outfit abroad. Just in keep in mind that you might have higher expenses for shipping in case there is a problem and you have to return something.

John

[rxmd]

If you can live with the slightly lower magnification, an M2 will give you more camera for the money. There are several in the classifieds right now for between $650 and $800, that's £420-£520 plus shipping, one of the $800 ones has been serviced by DAG and has a quick load spool, and one of the $650 ones comes with a VC meter which is a very good deal. I find the M2 better because I don't care much for 135mm lenses, but the option of 35mm framelines is considerably more useful.

[lrochfort]

It certainly seems like there are some deals to be had from reputable dealers.

I think what I should do is go to Aperture or Red Dot in London and handle an M2,3,4 so that I can get a feel for them and make sure the M3 is really what I want.

Do people have recommendations on M2 vs M4 and Summarit vs Summicron lenses?

Thanks again for the wealth of information!

[paradoxbox]

I bought my M3 and then later my 50mm Elmar 2.8 for a total of far less than 1000gbp

If you look around enough you'll find something sooner or later!

The M3 is fantastic; if you prefer 35mm and are OK with a lesser magnification of viewfinder then the M2 may be OK for you!

Build quality wise the M2 and M3 are about the same, the M4 is not quite as good but is still fantastic.

IMO the biggest factor for an M3 is whether or not you like the viewfinder.

[OlliL]

To add to the Photohaus.de recommendation by John:

I also dealt with them online and in their shop.
They're super nice and helpful.
They're ratings are always worse, than at other dealers and they offer warranty.
When they say it's a "B", others will definetly give the item "AB", at least.

I bought a Minilux from them and it developed the E-02 a couple weeks later.
They refunded the full amount right away.

[joeswe]

Do people have recommendations on M2 vs M4 and Summarit vs Summicron lenses?


I never owned a M4 but I would say while there are small differences in practical use, it boils down more or less to the question which styling you prefer. The M4s are a bit younger for sure, but if a couple of years makes much of a difference on cameras that are 35+ years old, is debatable. It all depends on the condition of the individual sample you are looking at. If I am informed right, the biggest differences are in the design of the film transport lever, the loading mechanism (quick loading vs. traditional loading) and the frame counter (the M2 frame counter is automatic, but has to be reset by hand, while the M4 counter resets and counts automatically) and the rewind knob. The early versions of the M2 didn't have a self timer, if that is of any importance for you. The viewfinders are more or less the same with the exception of the (rarely used) 135mm frame line on the M4 that is paired with the 35mm frame line. The M2 shows either the 35mm frame line, the 50mm frame line or the 90mm frame line, but never two frame line sets at the same time. You can find more info on the various models in condensed form here (http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm).

On the Summicron vs. Summarit topic: The Summicrons are all fine lenses, you cannot go wrong with any of them. The early Summicron versions (v.1 "collapsible" succeeded by v.2 "rigid" and "dual range" with improved optics over v.1) are preferred by many shooters for black and white. They are prone to haze and scracthes/cleanings marks (soft glasses), so you have to pick your copy carefully. The later versions of the Summicron (v.3 and v.4) give more contrast which helps if you prefer to shoot color, but they also tend to be more expensive, especially version 4. I think the latter one would be outside your budget. The classic Summarit lens (f1.5, as opposed to the modern f2.5 Summarit) is a lens over which people are very much divided. It's basically a coated version of the 1930s Xenon (if I'm right) and as such it is often said to be not the sharpest lens, but some poeple still love it for it's character. It has very soft glass and is difficult to find in clean condition. The classic M-mount Elmar (f3.5, late f2.8; 1950s to 1974) can be had usually cheaper than any of the Summicron versions, but it is one to one and a half stop slower and optically inferior at larger apertures. Stopped down to f5.6 or f8 there isn't much of a difference, I would assume. It is a compact (if not tiny) lens collapsed, but as with the collapsible Summicron, the ergonomics of collapsible lenses are not for everyone. More condensed information on the various lens options here (http://www.cameraquest.com/mlenses.htm)

[ruby.monkey]

Tri Tran's M4 + 50mm collapsible Summicron might just fit in your budget, depending on exchange rates and import duties.

M2 v. M4 - they're both excellent cameras. I preferred the M2's cleaner lines, less cluttered finder, and more secure take-up spool; whereas the M4's rewind lever beats the M2's knob for ease of use. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

[lrochfort]

I never owned a M4 but I would say while there are small differences in practical use, it boils down more or less to the question which styling you prefer. The M4s are a bit younger for sure, but if a couple of years makes much of a difference on cameras that are 35+ years old, is debatable. It all depends on the condition of the individual sample you are looking at. If I am informed right, the biggest differences are in the design of the film transport lever, the loading mechanism (quick loading vs. traditional loading) and the frame counter (the M2 frame counter is automatic, but has to be reset by hand, while the M4 counter resets and counts automatically) and the rewind knob. The early versions of the M2 didn't have a self timer, if that is of any importance for you. The viewfinders are more or less the same with the exception of the (rarely used) 135mm frame line on the M4 that is paired with the 35mm frame line. The M2 shows either the 35mm frame line, the 50mm frame line or the 90mm frame line, but never two frame line sets at the same time. You can find more info on the various models in condensed form here (http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm).

On the Summicron vs. Summarit topic: The Summicrons are all fine lenses, you cannot go wrong with any of them. The early Summicron versions (v.1 "collapsible" succeeded by v.2 "rigid" and "dual range" with improved optics over v.1) are preferred by many shooters for black and white. They are prone to haze and scracthes/cleanings marks (soft glasses), so you have to pick your copy carefully. The later versions of the Summicron (v.3 and v.4) give more contrast which helps if you prefer to shoot color, but they also tend to be more expensive, especially version 4. I think the latter one would be outside your budget. The classic Summarit lens (f1.5, as opposed to the modern f2.5 Summarit) is a lens over which people are very much divided. It's basically a coated version of the 1930s Xenon (if I'm right) and as such it is often said to be not the sharpest lens, but some poeple still love it for it's character. It has very soft glass and is difficult to find in clean condition. The classic M-mount Elmar (f3.5, late f2.8; 1950s to 1974) can be had usually cheaper than any of the Summicron versions, but it is one to one and a half stop slower and optically inferior at larger apertures. Stopped down to f5.6 or f8 there isn't much of a difference, I would assume. It is a compact (if not tiny) lens collapsed, but as with the collapsible Summicron, the ergonomics of collapsible lenses are not for everyone. More condensed information on the various lens options here (http://www.cameraquest.com/mlenses.htm)
I'd read cameraquest several times, but there's so much information is a bit bewildering.

That's a great summary, thanks joeswe

[Vics]

My kit is M3 and Collapsible Summicron 50, plus I recently added a Summaron 2.8/35 with the "goggles". GREAT camera and lenses! I'll be selling everything else, because this is the one for me. Good luck on your search.

[David Hughes]

Don't forget duty and VAT on non EU buys.

And they include the cost of P&P when calculating duty (5% from memory). Then take a sub-total of all that and calculate VAT on that figure. It's 20% btw. So a non-EU bargain can turn out expensive.

Regards, David

PS I've been looking at Leica R's on ebay and they often sell for (far) more than the decent dealers are charging. And the dealers give guarantees, usually. OTOH, ebay will get you your money back if swindled.

[AJS Lamb]

Try looking at mw.classic.com

They're based in Islington and I can't sing their praises too highly. You can ring them on 020 7354 3767. Speak to Mahendra.

Good luck!

[S.H.]

Do people have recommendations on M2 vs M4 and Summarit vs Summicron lenses?

M4 are "better" made, i. e. easier to repair than earlier M3 and M2 (dixit a repairman, not me). Better fit of the internal parts perhaps. For the user, not many differences.

Summicron should be way more usable than a summarit : the latter is optically worse than a summicron, and do not age well (soft glass/coatings, hard to find with clean glass, you also are in the collector territory). They are reputed to be inferior to the Zeiss sonnars of the same era.

[lrochfort]

My kit is M3 and Collapsible Summicron 50, plus I recently added a Summaron 2.8/35 with the "goggles". GREAT camera and lenses! I'll be selling everything else, because this is the one for me. Good luck on your search.
That's interesting. How would you rate the 35mm and goggles on the M3 vs the unadorned 35mm on the M2? From a viewfinder/rangefinder perspective as well as usability.