Future of the X100?

[boomguy57]

So...with the apparent success and popularity of the X-Pro 1, and Fuji's roadmap of X-mount lenses, there will surely be an X-Pro 2 at some point. However, does this herald the end of the X100 line? Is the X100 a one-off?

I am one of those who has not, and as of now will not, upgrade my X100 to the XP1. I love my X100, and it is officially my all-time favorite digital camera. I wonder if the X100 was just the first step--Fuji's equivalent of "dipping their toes in the water" to check the temperature of the market--and the XP1 is now the Fuji digital future.

It now seems highly unlikely (to me) that there will be an X100 successor; in fact, with a 23mm f/2 X-mount lens due out early next year, could the X100 be discontinued altogether soon?

[gavinlg]

So...with the apparent success and popularity of the X-Pro 1, and Fuji's roadmap of X-mount lenses, there will surely be an X-Pro 2 at some point. However, does this herald the end of the X100 line? Is the X100 a one-off?

I am one of those who has not, and as of now will not, upgrade my X100 to the XP1. I love my X100, and it is officially my all-time favorite digital camera. I wonder if the X100 was just the first step--Fuji's equivalent of "dipping their toes in the water" to check the temperature of the market--and the XP1 is now the Fuji digital future.

It now seems highly unlikely (to me) that there will be an X100 successor; in fact, with a 23mm f/2 X-mount lens due out early next year, could the X100 be discontinued altogether soon?

The x100 was much more popular in sales than the x-pro1 as far as I can tell - it's smaller, cheaper, some think prettier, has a silent leaf shutter, 1/2000th flash sync etc. At the moment it's also faster to focus than the x-pro1. The 23mm lens is made for the sensor, which allows it to be tiny, and optically great even wide open. The x100 has less CA and fringing than the x-pro1 does because of this.

So no, I don't think the fixed lens line from fujifilm will be discontinued. I don't think it's close to being upgraded to a new model yet - probably in 2 or so years, hopefully longer (it's already a great cam and resale is holding up incredibly well).

For the eventual upgrade, I'm sure that they will use the x-trans sensor and tweak the overall interface to be more like the x-pro1's including the Q menu button and larger physical buttons.

Either way, the x100 is very much current, or ahead of other cameras around its price bracket - if you are into that sort of camera.

[greyelm]

I too regard my X100 as my favourite camera. I think it is highly possible that Fuji will continue to update the X100 firmware to add improvements as they have already done over the last year. I don't know whether they will bring out an "X200" until they have fixed the issues that also seem to be present in the X pro 1 , such as speed & accuracy of auto focus under certain conditions and the weak fly by wire adjustment in manual focus (none of which bother me at the present).

I decided not to upgrade to the X pro 1 as I am still happy with the X100, I'm not even sure that I would upgrade to an "X200" unless I was convinced that it really was better for my kind of photography.

[boomguy57]

I was initially expecting other X100 fixed-lens bodies, maybe with different focal lengths. Now it feels like they have moved in a different direction, but an eventual X200 would be great--or could be. For me, the X100 is almost perfect, and the continued firmware updates/upgrades have given me confidence to buy Fuji products in the future...I wish more companies would be so good about listening and implementing changes that are needed into products.

The XP1 is a bit larger than the X100, even more so with lenses. That was the main deterrent for me to "upgrading" to the XP1. I like that the X100 is such a great camera and isn't the size of my M6 (even larger w/ lenses). I can fit it in a coat pocket easily. The silent shutter is also really, really amazing.

Long live the X100!

[rbelyell]

i too love my x100, but i dont see the xpro as a 'competitor' but rather a 'complement' to it. essentially, whilst it gives tremendous creative manual control to the user, the x100 is essentially an extremely high end point n shoot. its a pocketable, take anywhere camera. the xpro is a different animal entirely, and for legacy glass lovers, will hopefully end up being a digital delivery vehicle for our favorite lenses. just as many M8/9 users have compact backup or secondary bodies, so the x100 can be viewed with respect to the xpro. were the xpro to some day work well with M mount lenses, i could easily see both cameras happily coexisting in my bag!
tony

[jsrockit]

At the moment it's also faster to focus than the x-pro1.

Not exactly true Gavin... the 18mm lens on the X-Pro1 is faster IMO.

[DtheG]

The X100 is near enough perfect for me; I like the quality of the matched lens and sensor, the maunual controls. A few minor changes, such as the focus mode switch and command dial from the X1-Pro woul be nice. An improved manual focus mechnism that had less dissonance between the smooth mechanical action and the actual stepping action is my greatest desire. There is still a lot of work to do on the software user interface for both X100 and X1-Pro, but it is progressing.
I don't buy cameras very often (about one a decade ) and the X100 was a major purchase in this uncertain economy. I will watch with interest how the line develops. Meanwhile I have a super tool for my sort of photography and a camera that repays taking the time to learn its ways.

[* In relative terms the ФЭД-3 I saved for a year to buy for £20 circa 1968 was my most expesive purchase, I still have it, must put a roll of film through it one day.]

[boomguy57]

I wonder if some day we will look back at the X100 as a "cult camera" that really was a diamond in the rough...

[PaleBlueDotCitizen]

I wonder if some day we will look back at the X100 as a "cult camera" that really was a diamond in the rough...

I think it will be a one off. Fujifilm now want their customers to buy into the X-mount lenses.

[jsrockit]

I wonder if some day we will look back at the X100 as a "cult camera" that really was a diamond in the rough...

I think it already is a cult camera and is considered one of the best in its class.

I think it will be a one off. Fujifilm now want their customers to buy into the X-mount lenses.

There is room for both. The X100 continues to sell. Its size and leaf shutter are indispensible to some.

[Aristophanes]

IMO it is overpriced. Sales will stall as APS-C DSLR's get smaller and cheaper.

Fuji has the largest and most diverse line of P&S cameras, but they are being chewed up in sales volume by cameraphones. Fuji is going to need some volume higher up the chain, but below the current X100 price point.

[jsrockit]

IMO it is overpriced.

Yet Fuji sold something like 100,000 units. And overpriced compared to what? There is nothing else, by another manufacturer, like it. People who buy this camera buy it because they don't want a DSLR...no matter how cheap and small they get. The fact that Fuji sold so many should tell you that this camera was at the right place at the right time and that many others did not want a DSLR as well.

[Gid]

I thought Fuji were bringing out a 28mm converter for the X100. Has that been canned? If not, then, that doesn't sound like the death knell of the X100.

[jsrockit]

You're right Gil. It hasn't been canned... the internet just has a short attention span which assumes any camera older than a year is worthless in the on paper specs race.

[Paul T.]

IMO it is overpriced. Sales will stall as APS-C DSLR's get smaller and cheaper.

Fuji has the largest and most diverse line of P&S cameras, but they are being chewed up in sales volume by cameraphones. Fuji is going to need some volume higher up the chain, but below the current X100 price point.

i think they've had plenty of volume on the X100 - more than they expected. There are far more of them in stock than was the case for the more expensive consumer cameras they had previously.

As far as overpriced DSLRs... isn't that argument very old and very tired? The mainstream DLSR will always be cheaper, but that hasn't stopped Leica surviving for the last two decades, or Micro 43 cameras becoming the fastest-growing segment of the camera market.

[willie_901]

I speculate the X100 will be updated with new sensor and AF technology in 12-18 months. The lens may be a stop faster. The X100 owners will enjoy an excellent image maker until their camera fails, is lost, or stolen.

[Cirrus1]

Here are some real life samples from the wide angle attachment. I have read 2 different early mini reviews and so far people are really impressed with the quality of the new wide angle attachment. This bodes well for continued enthusiasm for the X100.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1020&thread=41825854

[boomguy57]

I was wondering more what the successors to the X100 will look like, or what features they will implement--if there are successor models!

[Paul T.]

It's interesting the range of opinions on the X100 - any groundbreaking new camera like this always promotes hype, and an inevitable backlash. I'm looking forward to picking one up in the next few weeks.

Now, to how they can update it.

What I'd like: Active AF focusing, like the Hexar, simpler menus, improved manual focus (ie fewer turns), with edge detection aka focus peaking.
What we'll get: more pixels. Altho the semi-random sensory array might be more welcome.

[gavinlg]

IMO it is overpriced. Sales will stall as APS-C DSLR's get smaller and cheaper.

Fuji has the largest and most diverse line of P&S cameras, but they are being chewed up in sales volume by cameraphones. Fuji is going to need some volume higher up the chain, but below the current X100 price point.

I've argued the overpriced point many times before, and I'll do it here once more just because it's late and I've got nothing to do.

So you want an APS-C sensor compact with an inbuilt optical viewfinder, and a 35mm equivalent f2 lens, and manual/mechanical controls:

- Fujifilm x100 - $1200 body AND 23mm f2 fujinon lens.
- leica m8 - $7000 body only
- Epson r-d1 - $2000 body only

Lenses - 28mm ultron for m8 - $600
- 21mm voigtlander skopar for r-d1 - $500


Lets say we take away the requirements for mechanical controls and optical viewfinder - what are we left with?

- Fujifilm x100 - $1200 for body AND 23mm f2 fujinon lens.
- Sony nex-7 - $1200 BODY ONLY
- Olympus OM-D - $1300 BODY ONLY
- Leica X2 with viewfinder - $2600 with 24mm f2.8 leica lens

Of the above, to achieve a 35mm equivalent focal length, you can buy:

- Zeiss 24mm f1.8 for Nex-7 - $1200
- Olympus 17mm f2.8 for OM-D - $300

So for an equivalent camera, but with LESS features (no mechanical controls, no optical viewfinder), you can have the Nex-7 with the zeiss 24mm f1.8 for a total of $2400, the OM-D with 17mm f2.8 for $1600, or the leica X2 with a wonky viewfinder attachment for $2600.

So please, for the love of electro-beam coatings, explain how the x100 is overpriced. Just the fujinon lens alone is worth probably $600-800 - it's a match optically for the 35mm zeiss biogon M mount lens which is $1200 by itself. I'm very curious!

[Aristophanes]

I've argued the overpriced point many times before, and I'll do it here once more just because it's late and I've got nothing to do.
...
So please, for the love of electro-beam coatings, explain how the x100 is overpriced. Just the fujinon lens alone is worth probably $600-800 - it's a match optically for the 35mm zeiss biogon M mount lens which is $1200 by itself. I'm very curious!

Because it is competing against APS-C and m43 systems that themselves are getting less expensive, and some APS-C DSLR's are about to get a whole lot smaller.

There is huge price pressure on the market to price down. Nikon, not willing to lose D800 margins for example, is contemplating a D600 to capture that or lose to other suppliers. The detente of a few years ago in the industry has disappeared.

The error you make is that people will look for x design (non-RF whatever the X100 is) and not make informed choices about other designs. That's not how the market works. Most consumers are not anywhere close to being that rigid or setting up such huge lens-specific barriers as you use for examples, like a $1,200 Zeiss. Those are esoteric arguments for this forum, but have diminished impact on the overall market. The % of potential X100 buyers who comparison shop with a $1,200 lens in mind is probably a fraction of 1% of that potential. Retail is moved by price points, so comparing to a Leica or the pretty much unavailable RD-series is not really functional.

Fuji cannot ignore the price pressures from other suppliers. In the short run, being unique with the hybrid VF system helps, but that advantage will diminish over time. I think that diminishment is already starting to occur. One of Fuji's strengths has been its balance sheet; it's a very price conscious and volume-ready company.

[umcelinho]

- Fujifilm x100 - $1200 body AND 23mm f2 fujinon lens.
- leica m8 - $7000 body only
- Epson r-d1 - $2000 body only

more like

- Fujifilm x100 - $800 (used) / $1300 (new) body + 23/2 fujinon -> $1300 tops with clean, useable iso 3200 and an ok 6400. extra benefits: macro, af, panorama.
- leica m8 - $2000 body only + 28/1.9 Ultron $500 = $2500, but above iso 640 it starts to suck
- Epson r-d1 - $1000 body only + 21/2.8 Biogon $1000 = $2000 with a loss of 1 stop, and usable up to iso 1600.

still makes your point though.

[jsrockit]

Because it is competing against APS-C and m43 systems that themselves are getting less expensive, and some APS-C DSLR's are about to get a whole lot smaller..

People who buy the X100 do not want a cheap DSLR. It is not even an option. As for potential customers... they've been realized in great numbers already. Fuji is already in the bonus with any future sales of the X100 I would imagine.

[Paul T.]

Because it is competing against APS-C and m43 systems that themselves are getting less expensive, and some APS-C DSLR's are about to get a whole lot smaller.


Well, of course, there's always some vague design in the distance that will make current cameras obsolete!

It's a bit like saying I shouldn't fancy Rachel Weisz, because one day she'll be old and wrinkly.

[Aristophanes]

People who buy the X100 do not want a cheap DSLR. It is not even an option. As for potential customers... they've been realized in great numbers already. Fuji is already in the bonus with any future sales of the X100 I would imagine.

The market Fuji needs to sell through the X100 on a continual (halo and glow gone) basis DO compare to "cheap" (who says they are cheap?) DSLRs.

To say that the X100 stands apart and in isolation from the larger market is not how retail camera markets work. DSLR is *always* an option save to those very few who are fanatic about NOT owning a DSLR.

Last I heard from the large chain I do biz with, X100 sales have stalled. It's just another camera on the shelf; the buzz is short-lived these days. It has a certain appeal, but price looks more and more to be an issue when you balance against the trend for all APS-C and larger sensor cameras.

Don't forget, this camera was also positioned as a smaller, lighter, FFL RF-style second camera for those lugging a D3x. It's competing in the second camera segment, where options are growing every quarter.

As with any camera system in the retail market, sales volumes and model age are rectified by price adjustments. I would not be surprised to the X100 get $200 or more cheaper post-PK 2012.

And by 2013 Fuji will need to upgrade the sensor etc.

[Paul T.]

UK retail for the X100 was £999. Now it's £799, with most available for £670. Two thirds the price of the OM-D without a lens.

I can't quite see your point.... the Fuji X100 is a failure because it sold more than any other prosumer Fuji in years??? Because it got Fuji into hundreds, perhaps thousands, more outlets than was the case before?

Fuji have alwasy done great, quirky cameras like the X Pan or the Natura.... the X100 is perhaps the summation of that aesthetic. No it won't appeal to everyone, but better to be a huge niche camera than a small mainstream camera.

[jsrockit]

The market Fuji needs to sell through the X100 on a continual (halo and glow gone) basis DO compare to "cheap" (who says they are cheap?) DSLRs.

To say that the X100 stands apart and in isolation from the larger market is not how retail camera markets work. DSLR is *always* an option save to those very few who are fanatic about NOT owning a DSLR.

To me the X100 proved that there were people out there who didn't want a DSLR and wanted a rangefinder STYLE camera instead. Of course, it is not everyone and some of those folks most likely did go for a DSLR...just not the low-end level... maybe more like a D7000 as opposed to the D5100.

Last I heard from the large chain I do biz with, X100 sales have stalled. It's just another camera on the shelf; the buzz is short-lived these days. It has a certain appeal, but price looks more and more to be an issue when you balance against the trend for all APS-C and larger sensor cameras.

Yeah, I can see that. It's no longer a hype camera, it's just another option these days. However, it is still a unique option.

Don't forget, this camera was also positioned as a smaller, lighter, FFL RF-style second camera for those lugging a D3x. It's competing in the second camera segment, where options are growing every quarter.

I would say that was one market segment. Most of the people I know that bought the camera were not using a huge DSLR as well. Admittedly, the number of people I know with the camera is small. The OM-D appears to be the biggest competitor at this point.

As with any camera system in the retail market, sales volumes and model age are rectified by price adjustments. I would not be surprised to the X100 get $200 or more cheaper post-PK 2012.

And by 2013 Fuji will need to upgrade the sensor etc.

I can agree with this completely.

[dbarnes]

Fujifilm has said that there will be a another X-pro camera that will be simpler, so presumably also less expensive. It'll be interesting to see how that camera will be positioned relative to the X100.

[Aristophanes]

UK retail for the X100 was £999. Now it's £799, with most available for £670. Two thirds the price of the OM-D without a lens.

I can't quite see your point.... the Fuji X100 is a failure because it sold more than any other prosumer Fuji in years??? Because it got Fuji into hundreds, perhaps thousands, more outlets than was the case before?

Fuji have alwasy done great, quirky cameras like the X Pan or the Natura.... the X100 is perhaps the summation of that aesthetic. No it won't appeal to everyone, but better to be a huge niche camera than a small mainstream camera.

All I said was it is overpriced, not a failure. It's an $1,199 camera in an APS-C market diving well below $1,000 for sensors and features of this size and quality.

It's value is mostly in the hybrid OVF, retro-ish styling, and relatively compact design. Sensor is very good, but no better than the Sony dominance.

Right now, hype mostly, gone, it's a US$999 camera.

Don't get me wrong; I really like the X100, but in relation to the OP, I am seeing its competitiveness slip. I agree ith the recent Tom Hogan article about the plethora of choices (http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-collision.html). Right now the X100 looks to be a very expensive alternative. Some will never go to a DSLR and some will never abandon any OVF, but IMO that's a pretty small segment given the value out there and getting better. The X10 to X100 is a huge gap in IQ (sensor size) and features also. So Fuji is crimped in the sub-$1,000 very lucrative market. The X100 appears to have legs there until they revamp it.

[Paul T.]

Yup, well, given that UK retail price is now around $999 (retail down from £999 to £799) I can't argue with that, I'm sure the US price will be at that level soon.

[sevo]

Don't get me wrong; I really like the X100, but in relation to the OP, I am seeing its competitiveness slip.

Probably. But who, apart from the owners of one, will care? Fuji don't seem to sit on a pile, or the price would have dropped more significantly, and it certainly re-established their reputation prior to the Xpro1 release. Compacts don't differ from other electronic costume jewellery in having a shelf life of barely half a year, and the X100 is no exception. Its age is already over, after a grace period of another half year Fuji will present a successor, in time for the X-mas season.

[benlees]

Some people are tilting at windmills in this thread! Of course a digital camera will lose its competitive edge! That is the whole point. Constant upgrades is how its done now and has been since AF and matrix metering came along. We all know this! The X100 is actually (aside from sticky blades) very good value. Gavin put it in very good perspective. And when the next comes out the X100 will still take pictures. Right?

[OwenStegemann]

In my opinion the x100 is most similar to the luxury point and shoots of the film days, except far more feature laden and dare I say useful. In this category it really only has the Leica x series to compete with (although the x series is a little behind needing an accessory viewfinder). Hopefully fuji acknowledges this an continues the line as this is an important gap to be filled.

[Aristophanes]

Probably. But who, apart from the owners of one, will care? Fuji don't seem to sit on a pile, or the price would have dropped more significantly, and it certainly re-established their reputation prior to the Xpro1 release. Compacts don't differ from other electronic costume jewellery in having a shelf life of barely half a year, and the X100 is no exception. Its age is already over, after a grace period of another half year Fuji will present a successor, in time for the X-mas season.

But my nested point was that a fixed lens, X100 successor using an APS-C sensor, targeted at a similar market in, say, 2013, will not be at the same price point as the original X100.

It will be lower because all the APS-C market is going there. Sub-$1,000, even positioned as a "luxury" compact. It's breathing the same air as other APS-C cameras (X-Pro 1 included). I don't think the X100 is a one-off, but you won't see its like again milking a pent-up market at abnormally high premiums again, not until an FF version comes out.

Right now X100 US$1,199 at B&H. I predict an X100 successor will come out at US$999. We may see it previewed or hinted at at PK 2012.

Just trying to answer the OP.

[jsrockit]

But my nested point was that a fixed lens, X100 successor using an APS-C sensor, targeted at a similar market in, say, 2013, will not be at the same price point as the original X100.

I think that really depends on what the camera ends up being, the materials used, quality / speed of the lens, and if there is any innovation (such as the X100's OVF/EVF combo in 2011) in 2013. Leica charges $2000 for the X2, Voigtlander has made +$1,000 lenses for m4/3, Schnieder is rumored to have $1500-$2000 lenses coming for mirrorless, and bodies are actually going up in prices at times vs. previous models (E-M5, Nex-7, etc). 2013 might be too soon for this prediction. We are only 6 months away from 2013.

[benlees]

The road map for the X mount includes a 23mm f2 so I wonder what the successor to the x100 will have to offer, if there is one. If there is a successor to the X100 and it has similar features (with the mandatory upgrades of some kind) then I can't see the price falling. I been thinking about getting one and have been to every camera shop in town that sells them. The camera is in stock ("It's the last one!" lol) and have stated they are selling well. None of them will negotiate on the price.

[bwcolor]

Image quality has reached a level that I can live with and be happy. My only real wish is for a slow improvement in high ISO and dynamic range. The X100 needs a much better manual focus system from the focusing ring to the means to determine correct focus. A much faster and yet accurate autofocus will be the next market shaking development. I really don't care if the X200 has 16 MPix. Also, in order to keep the X100 small, the lens speed will not be increased.

[gavinlg]

All I said was it is overpriced, not a failure. It's an $1,199 camera in an APS-C market diving well below $1,000 for sensors and features of this size and quality.

But it's not overpriced. Maybe to a soccer mom who values video modes and zoom lenses it's overpriced, but to a photographer (to whom the camera was specifically targeted), it's not overpriced at all. The fact that fuji sold many many more than what they expected to sell negates your statement that it needs to be cheaper - it has filled a huge void in the camera market in which it is still the only real competitor. The price doesn't need to drop at all - in fact I would have paid more for mine if I had needed too.

What part of no other cameras can offer the specific features that the x100 offers do you not understand? There is no DSLR anywhere near the size of the x100, ESPECIALLY when you factor in the lens into the equation. Even the diminutive pentax dslr with their DA* pancake lens is many many times bigger, and they DON'T make a 23mm f2 lens - only a 21mm f3.2 that is $650 BY ITSELF, and optically WORSE than the 23mm fujinon.

If the camera was marketed to moms and dads who want a point and shoot to shoot their kids with, it would be overpriced. But the camera is not a point and shoot. My girlfriend struggles to shoot with it. It's a photographers tool - no excuses. You need to know how to use this specific camera to be able to use it. It's less about what is does then HOW it does it - and that separates it from DSLRs and other mirrorless cameras. Not to mention (again) that no one else makes a 35mm f2 equivalent lens for the aps-c mirrorless camera, and all the other aps-c cameras you're comparing it to (in terms of price) don't come with a lens.