IIIC 1941/42 Vintage Price?

[Slowdive]

Going through the estate of my wife's recently deceased mother, we came across a IIIC from WWII built around 41/42 based on the serial number. I've checked and it doesn't have any K markings on it, but it is in excellent shape. Her father was a journalist for the German Army during the war and we will probably keep the camera for sentimental reasons, but we would like to know the price to settle the estate.


Since this seems like one of the most knowledgeable groups on the topic of these vintage cameras, I was wondering if anyone would have a rough estimate on the value of this camera.


Many thanks.


http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1125/photo1bj.jpg

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/5199/photo3fd.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/7186/photo2lu.jpg

[CameraQuest]

check carefully over each item.
does any item have military markings?

Stephen

[Slowdive]

No military markings that I can tell, however we know from war era photos that we have showing him with the camera, that my wife's grandfather used the camera during his duties in the field.

[Mr_Flibble]

First, Sorry for your family's loss,
Second, that is a beautiful set! With personal history no less!

It doesn't have to be a military issue camera. A lot of private purchase camera's were used as well.

War-time Civillian IIIc's with Chrome finish aren't overly expensive (yet), A black painted ones certainly have a bit more interest.

[enasniearth]

What you have is a wartime grey painted Leica iiic .
They were made with the standard shutter and also the k type ball bearing shutter .
Yours is an early grey paint with standard shutter , they were actually made in smaller numbers than the k type .
Nice camera .

[enasniearth]

It is difficult to set a value .
The non k type camera does not command the price of the k shutter type .
Still the outfit is probably worth $2000-$2800
With the history and complete with two lenses finder and case .

[Slowdive]

It is difficult to set a value .
The non k type camera does not command the price of the k shutter type .
Still the outfit is probably worth $2000-$2800
With the history and complete with two lenses finder and case .

Ah great. Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. And I'm somewhat glad it's not worth much more than that as I'm pretty sure we'll keep it and have to pay the estate the value. ;)

Thanks again!

[Bingley]

You have a very nice kit. As Roland (ferider) says, LeicaTom here may be the one to ask about your particular camera body. You can also check www.keh.com (http://www.keh.com), which sells Leica threadmount cameras, and see what current prices (in the American market, at least) are on a Leica IIIc. My impression is that a chrome IIIc in good user condition sells these days for around $300 USD (give or take $50), but yours may be worth significantly more b/c it's a black paint version, and more still if it has any special markings. Nice collection of lenses, too.

Welcome to the forum!

[enasniearth]

First check that the number is listed as grey on factory record .
Email Jim lager with the serial number .
I can not make it out in the photos .
Grey iiic started at 387 xxx
Not sure of exact numbers listed .
It looks like an original grey paint iiic in the photos .

[Brian Legge]

Number looked like 387?21.

I see the Elmar by what are the other two lenses?

[Slowdive]

It all appears to be original to my non-expert eyes. The serial is 387621, although I'm not sure how to check the factory records.

Yes, I would be happy to have more thoughts on price range for it. Thanks again guys.

[Slowdive]

Number looked like 387?21.

I see the Elmar by what are the other two lenses?

The two lenses are a 5cm and 3,5cm

[buzzardkid]

List of things to check:

What are the serial numbers on the lenses? If they are contemporary to the camera, they should be between 490xxx (1939) and 593xxx (1943). Leica's in wartime were often delivered with lenses from earlier production dates.

A set with original lenses is worth considerably more to collectors etc.

Also, remove the lens and see if the shutter cloth is a) red cloth on either the first or second curtain or b) stamped with a capital 'K'. Two red shutter curtains in good condition would be a real find. There were very few cameras made with red shutter curtains (leftover experimental shutter stock, prewar delivered to Leitz by special delivery from Kodak) and most have had their shutters replaced. A good condition wartime gray camera with red curtains is a rare as hens teeth. I've only once seen one online before, years ago. A shutter marked 'K' would mean the shutter is a ball-bearing shutter (K for Kugellager). Much sought after by collectors.

The camera still has it's original split rings. Smaller size and very nicely finished. These often were lost or replaced.

Is all the vulcanite (the 'leather') on the body still tight? No cracks or loose parts? Be careful, that painted vulcanite is of great importance to the value of the camera!

Does the leather case have any markings? Nothing like 'Luftwaffen eigentum' stamped into the rear or bottom of it?


I'll extend this post if I think of anything more.

[Slowdive]

List of things to check:

What are the serial numbers on the lenses? If they are contemporary to the camera, they should be between 490xxx (1939) and 593xxx (1943). Leica's in wartime were often delivered with lenses from earlier production dates.


Thank you for this good information! The 3,5cm lens is 557172 and the 5cm is I believe 549276 (super tiny numbers and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be). So I guess that matches up around the same manufacture date of the camera.

Took off the lens and it's all black and no K. Yes the condition of the vulcanite is like new. Heh, I'm almost afraid to handle it now though. No markings on the case other than leitz stamp on the bottom. So what I gather is that it's not super rare what I have, but somewhat valuable nonetheless. Thanks so much for the help.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Grey civillian nr 387745 was sold two years ago on Ebay for USD 1279, (price for body without lens)
Grey civillian nr 387801 had an asking price of USD 1375 but wasn't sold at that time.
Just some figures from my database.....

[LeicaTom]

What you have there is a 1942 Leica IIIC NORMAL with Grey paint, possible matching lenses and a 1950's Leica case, without checking the lenses I'd put the value of the camera at about $2,800 to $3,500 if the camera has WW2 German military history this can also add much more value to the items, for the Nazi collectors really want that, just becuase the camera doesn't have military markings doesn't mean it wasn't used by the military and if there's a Nazi era journalist connection that can be proven, this just adds more and more to the mystic and military collectors value of the camera.

The IIIC Grey Normal cameras are in reality RARER than the K = Kugellager models, but they lag behind the Grey IIIC K prices by about $500 to $700. -

The IIIC K Grey models are worth $3,000 to $5,000 in the civilian/un-marked or US Army issue form, the WW2 German Air Force Luftwaffen and Army Heer and W.H. are in the $6,000 to $15,000 range and the K.M. Kriegsmarine German Navy are in the $15,000 to $25,000 range (if you even find one, they are the rarest of all WW2 Grey Leica cameras). Add the Grey MOOLY C Grey paint motor to a camera and that's an extra $19,000 to $28,000 (for just the motor, depending on the version) like the Kreigsmarine Grey Leica's the Grey MOOLY C motors are very rare with less than 125 being made and maybe now less than 50 motors surviving WW2.

Beware of low ballers out there if you are going to sell, go ahead and write me off the board I can share the cameras information and production details/factory records with you from the Leica history that I have archived.

koolgirliestuff@gmail.com

Tom

[Ron (Netherlands)]

What you have there is a 1942 Leica IIIC NORMAL with Grey paint, possible matching lenses and a 1950's Leica case, without checking the lenses I'd put the value of the camera at about $2,800 to $3,500 if the camera has WW2 German military history this can also add much more value to the items,


With such a high price statement I think it would be fair if we could get some underlaying evidence. I never have seen such high prices paid on Ebay for these cameras...just history isn't doing much to collectors, with military engravings its a different story.

[LeicaTom]

With such a high price statement I think it would be fair if we could get some underlaying evidence. I never have seen such high prices paid on Ebay for these cameras...just history isn't doing much to collectors, with military engravings its a different story.

Normal Grey IIIC's have been over $2,500 for a long time now........the last "kit" set up I saw sell had the 35, 50, 90 and 135 in a super rare Grey Leitz carrying case and all were EX and the 135 maybe pushing EX+ it all sold for a little shy of $4,000.

There hasn't been a decent all original and non busted up Normal Grey IIIC camera sold on ebay in about a year and a half, but ebay is no place to research very rare camera prices, the high end European dealers who successfully sell these cameras and the Westlicht Auction show current values and still with my experience over the years with these cameras 80% of the good stuff NEVER will be seen anywhere for sale over the internet, it's all privately handled between big collectors.

Just last week a close collector friend of mine bought a Normal 42' Grey IIIC with a Grey paint 135 Hektor for $11,000 from another collector, deals like this happen every week.

http://www.westlicht-auction.com/files/7130ed0457bfe2d0bf1bac41b3e31b013bbf.jpg

This 42' which is at the lower end of the condition grade EX/EX- sold for $2,600 a year and a half ago at Westlicht, the camera would briing about $2,800 or $2,900 now, there's very few Normal Bearing cameras coming out on the market if any and even though they are $500 to $700 less than the same condition "K" Grey they are being bought quickly, while real collectors know they are RARER than the K models in production numbers.

The days of finding cameras like this for under $2,000 are long gone, 6 years ago was the last time I bought a IIIC K Grey for under $2k, most collectors are aware of what the cameras are worth now and the very limited supply and great demand has pushed the prices of even very poor conditiion and shabby looking cameras over $2k.

Tom

[Simon Bruxelles]

If the above is correct we are into the phase of "if the last one sold for x, add 10 per cent". I've seen this happen with vintage Rolex watches and it isn't pretty. A watch which was once primarily of interest to collectors suddenly becomes an appreciating commodity and speculators whose main interest is money start buying everything in sight while talking up prices. So my advice would be don't sell, even at the inflated prices Tom suggests. If you bide your time before you know it, it will be worth $25,000, not $2,500. Simon

[alphonse2501]

There have grey IIICs at ebay:
No.387572 Item number:230623865882
No.390270K Item number:400271965818

[LeicaTom]

Yeah, sadly the whole Grey Leica price situation has been going out of control the last two years, you could make good deals still 3 to 4 years ago, but the days of $2,000 EX++/Mint Minus Grey cameras are over forever! :(

Tom

[LeicaTom]

There have grey IIICs at ebay:
No.387572 Item number:230623865882
No.390270K Item number:400271965818


No.387572 Item number:230623865882 ~ that camera has been on ebay now about a year and two months, I offered them $2.800 and they turned me down, that's what the camera is worth.



No.390270K Item number:400271965818 ~ that camera is damaged and even with the LE case it's a $2,000 camera all day, they are asking too much for it and well that vulcanite is almost IMPOSSIBLE to repair, I can get it done professionally, but it's very very expensive and you cannot tell it was even repaired, that camera will not sell untill the price comes down from $2,495.

Tom