Just ordered six rolls of ADOX CMS 20 and a bottle of ADOTECH....

[Peter^]

I've never worked with such a slow film before, but I am excited about the possibilities of the ultra fine grain and resolution.

Any experience here with this film? Anything I should know before I start shooting?

[Peter^]

Thomas, many thanks

[HHPhoto]

I've never worked with such a slow film before, but I am excited about the possibilities of the ultra fine grain and resolution.

Any experience here with this film? Anything I should know before I start shooting?

Hi Peter,

yes, I am using this film and developer(s) for quite some time. Excellent stuff!

But you should consider this: It is not a ISO 20 film! The real sensivity is much lower.
If you use it at ISO 20, you will get sufficient density in the midtones (Zone V), but shodows will be completely empty and black with no detail.
At this speed and normal development times this film-developer combination produces a very pronounced S-shape characteristic curve. No shadow detail, excellent mid-tone separation, less detail in the highlights because of the flattening curve.

But, the good news is the problems can be easily solved: Expose the film at its real speed: ISO 5-6.
Decrease the development time by about 15-20%.
Best is of course, as with all BW films and developers, to test and adjust real speed and development time to your workflow and needed contrast ('Eintesten', Kalibrieren').
Best method is using a densitometer. As you are living in Germany, you can use the German explanations from Manfred Anziger and Otto Beyer on their websites.

With the reduced development time and ISO 5-6 I've got very good tonality with excellent shadow detail, an almost ideal linear characteristic curve up to Zone VII, and from Zone VIII only a little bit flattening with sufficient highlight detail.

Resolution and sharpness with this film are outstanding. It is the film with the best detail rendition available (and all digital cams look like crap in comparison ;)). Grain free even at huge enlargements.
With this film in 35mm you get a quality often better than 6x9cm standard medium format film.

Of course, if you want best tonality with this film it is ISO 5-6. A tripod is a must have.

If you need higher speed, then Agfa Copex Rapid, developed in Spur Modular UR New is the way to go (Adox CMS 20 is Agfa HDP microfilm; the Adotech developer is made by Spur).


Agfa Copex Rapid with Spur Modular UR New is one of the best BW film / developer combinations on the market. Speed is ISO 32-40.
I can highly recommend it.

Compared to famous Agfa APX 25, Rollei Pan 25, Efke 25, Ilford Pan F+ and pulled at ISO 50 TMX, Delta 100, Acros you get
- much higher resolution
- better sharpness
- little bit finer grain
- partly higher speed (compared to the ISO 25 films)
- partly better tonality

In 35mm you achieve medium format quality with this film / developer combination.
I've compared it to Plus-X, APX 100, Fp4+, Fomapan 100 and Rollei RPX 100 in 6x6 and have got better image quality with 35mm Copex Rapid / Spur compared to these standard films in 6x6.

As you have to stop down about 1,5 stops more in medium format to get the same depth of field in 120 compared to 35mm, the speed of ISO 40 in 35mm is comparable to ISO 100 - 125 in medium format.

And with this film / developer in 35mm your costs per shot are about 40% lower compared to standard medium format film.

In 120 you get close to 9x12cm LF film quality.

Another advantage of this film: I can be also developed in the Scala reversal process as a high resolution BW slide.
ISO 64 in 35mm and ISO 80 in 120 in the Scala process.
Development at www.photostudio13.de .

Cheers, Jan

[Brian Puccio]

Everything Jan says here is spot on. I love this film and I'm dying to use it as slide film and project it, though this is the first I've heard of a lab offering this service. (Shame I don't speak German!) I'm almost always a Provia person, but if I want B&W, this is all I'll use. Unless it's far too dark, in which case I hit my Neopan 1600 stash. I can't imagine using any other B&W film.

[HHPhoto]

Hi Brian,

it is the Agfa Copex Rapid (not the Adox CMS 20) which is offered by the excellent German professional lab Photostudio 13 as BW slide (original Agfa Scala reversal process).

Here are some other test reports about this film in the Scala process (all very positive):
http://www.aphog.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=18394

Agfa Copex Rapid in Scala reversal process delivers a very neutral tone.
Most other films in the Scala process are quite warm.

You are using Adox CMS 20 as slide? Very interesting, but not surprising, as this film has a clear base, too.
Which recipe do you use?

Cheers, Jan

[Brian Puccio]

Ah, sorry, I read your post too quickly.

I'm dying to try it as slide film. Their website http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html says:

The film´s base is totally transparent making it theoretically possible to reverse it and use it as an ultrahighresolution slide film with extreme projecting possibilities.

In order to do so you need to combine a reversal process with adotech as a first developer.

I was planning on following Ilford's instructions http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271220441194.pdf on how to reverse B&W films to make transparencies.

I haven't done it yet, but this will be one of my summer projects.

[HHPhoto]

I haven't done it yet, but this will be one of my summer projects.

Please let us know when you have done it! We are interested :).

Cheers, Jan

[oftheherd]

All good info. Thanks everybody. I have a roll in 35mm and 120, that I have yet to use. Especially good to know about different developers. I'm looking forward to it.

Really interesting to think of this as a b/w reversal film. I'm looking forward to hearing more about that.

[shadowfox]

But you should consider this: It is not a ISO 20 film! The real sensivity is much lower.
If you use it at ISO 20, you will get sufficient density in the midtones (Zone V), but shodows will be completely empty and black with no detail.
At this speed and normal development times this film-developer combination produces a very pronounced S-shape characteristic curve. No shadow detail, excellent mid-tone separation, less detail in the highlights because of the flattening curve.



Jan,

This does not apply to Adox CHS 25, because those two are different emulsions, correct?

[Peter^]

Gee, everybody, many thanks for all the great information. What a wealth of knowledge there is at RFF! I am totally amazed.
How the heck did we share information like this before the Internet?

My ISO knob on my Zeiss Ikon only goes down to 25, so I guess I can then adjust EV to +2 to get to ISO 5.
This will be interesting.

[HHPhoto]

Jan,

This does not apply to Adox CHS 25, because those two are different emulsions, correct?

Hi Will,

yes, two completely different films!
Adox CHS 25 = selected Efke 25 batches

Adox CMS 20 = Agfa-Gevaert HDP microfilm

And:

Agfa Copex Rapid = Agfa Copex Rapid microfilm :)

Cheers, Jan

[sanmich]

did someone ever compared these films to delta 100?
Obviously, they should retain more detail, but how much?
is it a 35mm to MF gap? or maybe comparable to the difference between a 100 ISO to 400 ISO film?
I'm just trying to figure if the added complexity and cost over a film like Delta 100 is worth it...

[sepiareverb]

It is not a ISO 20 film! The real sensivity is much lower.

Expose the film at its real speed: ISO 5-6.
Decrease the development time by about 15-20%.

Precisely my thoughts. And when handled this way it is quite something. Really quite something.

Oh, and do you have any tips for keeping this stuff (and some of the other ultra curly films) flat Jan??

did someone ever compared these films to delta 100?

It's an order of magnitude different. We had a guy here for a while named Colin (colinh??) who shared some scans with me years back of this film shot with the ZM 25 lens. It was hard to believe the level of detail.

[Taija71A]

I for one always have a little bit of a hard time keeping track of all of the following films... And their 'individual' film characteristics:

__________________

ADOX CMS 20

ADOX CHS 25

AGFA Copex Rapid

and

SPUR Orthopan UR

__________________


... As well as the 'associated' Film Developers that work best with the above cited films.


Therefore... I have assembled a small 'list of points' that I sincerely hope may be of interest to some of you... Here on RFF.
:) :) :)

_____


The points to consider are as follows:


1). It should be noted that ADOX CMS 20 Film (35mm) is by the way also available from SPUR under the name of SPUR Orthopan UR.


http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/Film/page32.html


2). It should also be noted that ADOX CMS 20 Film is available in both the original (35mm) version and the newer ADOX CMS II 20 Film (which is 120 Size). As far as I know... These are *** Not *** the same emulsion.


http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12036-Adox-CMS-20-High-Resolution-35mm-x-36-exposure?cat_id=402

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12036-Adox-CMS-20-High-Resolution-35mm-x-36-exposure?cat_id=402
(Please see bottom of page).


Therefore...


3). ADOX CMS 20 Film (35mm) should only be developed with the original ADOX Adolux Adotech Film Developer and *** Not *** with the newer ADOX Adotech CMS II Film Developer.

The ADOX Adolux Adotech Film Developer... Is by the way a formula developed by the team at SPUR and is also marketed under the name of SPUR Nanospeed UR..


http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12050-Adox-Adolux-Adotech-Developer-50ml-Processes-5-rolls-of-35mm-x-36?cat_id=301

http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/Film/page32.html


And


4). ADOX CMS II 20 Film (120 Size) should only be developed with the newer ADOX Adotech CMS II Film Developer and *** Not *** with the original ADOX Adolux Adotech Film Developer.


http://www.freestylephoto.biz/120501-Adox-Adotech-CMS-II-Film-Developer?cat_id=301_


5). If using Agfa Copex Microfilm it is recommended to develop the Agfa Copex Microfilm in Spur Modular UR A/B Film Developer... For optimal results.


6). According to Erwin Puts... Spur Nano Edge Film developer is even better than the original ADOX Adotech Film Developer when using either the original ADOX CMS 20 Film or SPUR Orthopan UR.

http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/page166/page166.html

http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/page166/page166.html

__________

Like they say... "Just a thought!"
:D
_

-Tim.
______

[HHPhoto]

Hi Tim,

please allow me just to correct two things:

2). It should also be noted that ADOX CMS 20 Film is available in both the original (35mm) version and the newer ADOX CMS II 20 Film (which is 120 Size). As far as I know... These are *** Not *** the same emulsion.

Well, the films are similar. Adox CMS 20 II is fresh production Agfa-Gevaert HDP microfilm. The former CMS 20 (=Spur Orthopan UR film) is from a former version of Agfa HDP 13.

Both Adox CMS 20 II 35mm and 120 which are sold now are from the fresh stock. Recommended developer:
Adotech II. This developer (made by Spur) is optimised for this fresh emulsion.
5). If using Agfa Copex Microfilm it is recommended to develop the Agfa Copex Microfilm in Spur Modular UR A/B Film Developer... For optimal results.

Best developer for Agfa Copex Rapid: Spur Modular UR New (with part A1 and part B for Agfa Copex Rapid).
It's the latest, improved version. Outstanding stuff.

6). According to Erwin Puts... Spur Nano Edge Film developer is even better than the original ADOX Adotech Film Developer when using either the original ADOX CMS 20 Film or SPUR Orthopan UR.

Nano Edge production was stopped about two years ago.
Spur Modular UR New (with part A2 and B for Orthopan UR and Adox CMS 20) is the successor, improved version.

It is not so complicated as it looks. For you international buyers it is even quite easy.

If you want Adox CMS 20: All stuff Fotoimpex is selling now is the new stuff (fresh production). Go for it. Use Adotech II developer for it.
I don't know whether Freestyle has still stock of the old stuff. If you want to be on the safe side, buy directly at Fotoimpex.

If you want Agfa Copex Rapid: You can buy the film at
- www.macodirekt.de (http://www.macodirekt.de)
- www.generalphoto.de (http://www.generalphoto.de)
- www.fotoimpex.de (http://www.fotoimpex.de) (there it is labelled as Spur DSX film)
- www.spuersinn.de (http://www.spuersinn.de) (there it is labelled as Spur DSX film)

Best developer for Agfa Copex Rapid (=Spur DSX):
Spur Modular UR New (with part A1 and part B)

(By the way: Part B is identical and can be used for Agfa Copex Rapid, Spur Orthopan and Adox CMS 20).

Cheers, Jan

[HHPhoto]

did someone ever compared these films to delta 100?

Yes, I did. A friend from a German forum did it as well. We both got almost identical results.
Delta 100 delivers about 120 - 130 lp/mm resolution at medium object contrast with a very good prime lens. Developed in fine grain developers like Perceptol, D512, Spur HRX-III (ISO 50-64).
Under identical conditions Agfa Copex Rapid (ISO 32-40 in Modular UR New) has about 160 - 180 lp/mm.
The resolution difference is big, grain is a bit finer with Copex.

CMS 20 is in the 240 - 260 lp/mm range and grainless. ISO 5-6 if you want best tonality and shadow detail.


Obviously, they should retain more detail, but how much?

Copex Rapid in 35mm is surpassing FP4+, Plus X, APX 100, Fomapan 100 in 6x6 medium format. Better detail rendition with Copex in Modular UR New.
Delta 100 in 6x6 ist still a bit better than Copex in 35mm, especially concerning fineness of grain.

Adox CMS 20 in 35mm is surpassing Delta 100 in 6x6 concerning resolution and fineness of grain.

If you want medium format quality handheld with ISO 32-40, go for Agfa Copex Rapid and Modular UR New.

If you want best detail rendition available and your shooting situation allows a tripod, CMS 20 with Adotech II is the best option.

Cheers, Jan

P.S. Flatness of the film, someone asked. You get the film quite flat if you dry it in your bath hanging in the shower cabin. Before drying make the shower cabin wet with warm water, so that there is enough humidity in the air (or put a basin / cup with hot water on the ground of the shower cabin).
All films, these with triazetate base and with PET base, dry flat the best way with a 40-60% humidity in the air.
Curling films are mostly caused by too dry air.
If you have a rest curl just put your films in sleeves under some heavy books for two or three days. After that they will be flat enough for enlarging.

[Taija71A]

Hi Tim,

please allow me just to correct two things:
__________

Hi Jan,

Thank-you very much for the 'Updated' and most current information. Like they say... "It is *** Greatly *** appreciated!" :)
_

As you were easily able to determine Jan... The points which I originally cited were based on the information that I was able to find on the Freestyle site and from Erwin Puts site (some of it which was unfortunately outdated). :(

Therefore, as the expert in the field Jan... I know that myself and many others here on RFF continue to appreciate all of your very thoughtful insights and helpful expertise... With respect to the above cited products! :D
_

Cheers,

-Tim.
______

[HHPhoto]

__________

Hi Jan,

Thank-you very much for the 'Updated' and most current information. Like they say... "It is *** Greatly *** appreciated!" :)
_

As you were easily able to determine Jan... The points which I originally cited were based on the information that I was able to find on the Freestyle site and from Erwin Puts site (some of it which was unfortunately outdated). :(

Therefore, as the expert in the field Jan... I know that myself and many others here on RFF continue to appreciate all of your very thoughtful insights and helpful expertise... With respect to the above cited products! :D
_

Cheers,

-Tim.
______

Tim,

you are welcome.

I know there is some confusion out there.
Freestyle is often doing a quite bad job concerning information of European products.
The information policy of Adox / Fotoimpex could be much better, too (at least it has improved a little bit recently; but the guys there and at Freestyle don't have a clue about effective marketing and customer information policy).

Conclusion: We film photographers have to help us by ourselves.

Cheers, Jan

[Taija71A]

Tim,

you are welcome.

I know there is some confusion out there.
Freestyle is often doing a quite bad job concerning information of European products.
The information policy of Adox / Fotoimpex could be much better, too (at least it has improved a little bit recently; but the guys there and at Freestyle don't have a clue about effective marketing and customer information policy).

Conclusion: We film photographers have to help us by ourselves.

Cheers, Jan

__________

>> You are welcome.
Thank-you for the kind words Jan! :D
_

>> I know there is some confusion out there. Freestyle is often doing a quite bad job concerning information of European products.

>> Conclusion: We film photographers have to help us by ourselves.
__________


Jan... Agreed in full 110% on both counts.
_
Have a great weekend!
_
Cheers,

-Tim.
______

[filmfan]

I am going to buy some of this stuff... medium format-like quality with 36 exp per roll sounds great.

[sepiareverb]

All films, these with triazetate base and with PET base, dry flat the best way with a 40-60% humidity in the air.
Curling films are mostly caused by too dry air.

Explains why it seems so much worse in the winter. Thank you!

[robklurfield]

Who needs Adolux? Maybe for you folks in Europe the price is reasonable, but here in the US Adolux and Spur are $35.00 for enough concentrate to process just 5 or 10 rolls.

So, being a cheapskate, I figured why not try Rodinal. Here's CMS 20 @ 12 ISO in 1+200 Rodinal for about 14-15 minutes semi-stand.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8142/7394884138_b918377638_h.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7229/7394885154_697d374a4c_h.jpg
Nikon S2 Nikkor 50/1.4 scanned with Epson V700... epson software... No post-processing

[peter_n]

What is the difference between Adox CMS 20 and Adox CMS II 20? You can only get 120 film in the II version.

[robklurfield]

Oh, this was CMS 20 II. I not 100% sure of what the difference is.

[colyn]

I have processed CMS 20 in Adonal 1+200 for 14.5 minutes for asa 10-12 with excellent results. Would say 10 minutes work with asa of 5 in the same developer? Or would someone recommend a different time?

Temp of 20 degrees C is the developer temp..

[dshfoto]

I just received my Freestyle order of 4 rolls of Adox CMS II 20 High Resolution Film - 120 Size and a bottle ofAdox Adotech CMS II Film Developer.

However, it seems like the posters here are recommending a lower ISO and lower developing time. (Over expose and under develop) to increase the shadow detail (Lower contrast).
It seems like the recommendation is to cut the ISO in half, and reduce the developing time by 20%. -- is that correct??
I created the following chart for developing times and mixing the developing solution, based on mfg recommended ISO and times. (Use at your own risk).
http://harrisfoto.com/drupal7/pdf_files/SPUR_HRX-3_Dev_Chart

[Skiff]

I just received my Freestyle order of 4 rolls of Adox CMS II 20 High Resolution Film - 120 Size and a bottle ofAdox Adotech CMS II Film Developer.

However, it seems like the posters here are recommending a lower ISO and lower developing time. (Over expose and under develop) to increase the shadow detail (Lower contrast).

Yes, I can confirm that, it is my experience, too.


It seems like the recommendation is to cut the ISO in half, and reduce the developing time by 20%. -- is that correct??

It is a good starting point. But with all film - developer combinations, you have to do your own tests for your own, individual developing parameters like individual agitation rhythm, tank type etc.