Dear Leica: You win [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

msbarnes

02-11-2012, 18:26

I've been searching for a Leica alternative for the past half year but I give up. I don't think there is any. I'm going to save up for a few months and go M and get things over with.

I haven't searched too hard but I've gone through a Konica Auto S2, Canon P, some Retina IIIc/C's, and a Retina IIIs. None of them have really made me happy except the Retina folders, which I LOVE for their compactness but Leica substitute they aren't.

The Konica Auto S2 lens was great, but the camera felt cheap and it even broke.
The Canon P build was great, but the patch was not that great.
The Retina IIIc is awesome, but it's a folder and not quick to the draw.
The Retina IIIs build was great, but the patch was just OK.

I thought I'd give a Bessa a try but I think I'll just be left wanting more. I'll probably be getting an M2 or M3 depending on whether I make 35mm or 50mm my standard. In the meantime I'll just wait or go Barnack with some nice LTM glass that I can use on my future M.

swoop

02-11-2012, 18:27

That's the biggest thing Leica has going for it, there's nothing else like it.

machinehum

02-11-2012, 18:30

Wait. You're looking for a Leica substitute, and you've decided not to try the one current in-production competitor (which many people swear by)? That just seems strange.

Johann Espiritu

02-11-2012, 18:38

I use an M6, M7, M9 and Bessa R2A. While the Bessa falls behind in build quality from the Leicas (as it should, considering the price) and the shutter sounds nowhere as silent, it is not a bad camera at all. I finder the viewfinder bright and clear, the patch contrasty (albeit sometimes easy to knock out of alignment), and it feels great in your hand. I enjoy using it when I take it out for a spin - and I do get a lot of compliments on how cool it looks.:cool:

I've also tried the Zeiss Ikon, and it feels great too.

Both are great alternatives to a Leica M. Of course, all of that being said, if you do want to end up with a Leica M in your bag at some time, then there is no substitute.:)

msbarnes

02-11-2012, 18:56

Well I was browsing keh.com today and I checked some prices:

Leica CL(BRG) 379
Leica M2(BRG) 645
Leica M3(BRG) 645
Bessa R (EX) 286

I'm not too sure how much the Bessa R2 and R3's go for but I figured that it would be somewhere in between. And after iterating through more and more on cameras, I figured that there is a reason why Leica has such a strong cult following.

I made a similar transition from my Mamiya TLR to 'Flex. It feels good to finally get one. Not necessarily for the optics but for the body/build/ergonomics.

philipus

02-12-2012, 06:27

Reminds me of the quote from Jackie Brown about the AK-47 "(...) accept no substitutes".

Yes the M are amazingly well built.

What would your budget be? If you are unsure of whether to use 35 or 50 your main focal length, then go for a body that takes both. I would personally have chosen the M4 over the M2.

Btw - and I realise it may not be what you're after - Classic Cameras (CA) has a CL with the great 40 Summicron (http://www.bpwltd.com/ccinventory.html) for $650.

Mackinaw

02-12-2012, 06:33

You may want to consider a Canon 7 or 7s or a Nikon SP. All three are fine 35mm rangefinders.

But I understand your predicament. I succumbed to the Leica spell many years back.

Jim B.

Godfrey

02-12-2012, 06:44

Nice as other cameras can be, there's nothing quite like a Leica M. I picked up my M4-2 at a fair price, put a Skopar 50 or 35 mm lens on it, and just enjoy it too much to worry about wanting anything else. I'd like to get an old Elmar 5.0 or 3.5 cm lens for it too, for the difference in rendering qualities, but I'm in no rush.

ferider

02-12-2012, 07:00

The only camera I found coming close to an M[23] is the Canon P, in particular for 50mm. You might want to try another copy - there are two in the classifieds currently.

I said "close", a good M2 or M3 is hard to substitute. There are lots of damaged copies around, I recommend to shop carefully and find one without separation and good patch contrast - the later serial number, the better. If you decide to go that route, a couple of hundred bucks in addition (CLA or return privileges) might make a big difference in getting you a camera that you will like.

Roland.

sepiareverb

02-12-2012, 07:01

And the current Zeiss Ikon.

gb hill

02-12-2012, 07:05

Funny it all worked out being the opposite for me. At the Atlanta RFF meet last spring I got to fondle & look through many different Leica. M's. Too me my little Bessa R had the best vf. I wasn't impressed with the Leica hype from that point on. Also I didn't like the weight of having to carrying the Leica all day long. Much prefer the lightweight of my Bessa. You just had better make sure you get the right vf magnification for your eyes. I did get the chance to look at a Zeiss Ikon & IMO is a better camera than an M.

willie_901

02-12-2012, 07:12

Three words: Zeiss Ikon M.

Oh wait, you're going on an extended documentary project and if your camera falls out of the back of the Land Rover you'll be in trouble. You need the Leica. The finder won't be as good, but the Leica is tougher.

ferider

02-12-2012, 07:28

Three words: Zeiss Ikon M. ... You need the Leica. The finder won't be as good ...

Define good.

Bright viewfinder, loud shutter, no shutter holes -> 2 Bessas or one ZI :)
High patch contrast, quiet shutter, lens caps -> Leica

Batteries or not - who cares. Being able to adjust the RF with a simple screwdriver on a long trip helps.

ampguy

02-12-2012, 07:50

I'd go with a Bessa - brighter VF, no VF flare like M4-2s, 6s, 7s. 2x faster shutter speed. 10x faster film loading. Can find a diopter in your bag of old Nikon slr parts, no $100 cost here. Less conspicuous when shooting. Lighter, can carry all day. No rewind jams at the 13th frame. No need for frequent CLA's. Costs 1/5th of a Leica.

I'd avoid the Canon P's. Everyone says the shutter wrinkles are no problem, then they come back after taking photos and wonder what the light leaks are all about.

dof

02-12-2012, 08:05

No rewind jams at the 13th frame.

Hi Ted,

Can you elaborate on this note? I have had one rewind jam in 14 years of use with an M6 TTL. As Murphy would have it, this happened during a trip and the loss of those frames and some shooting time was frustrating to say the least.

Your comment is so specific that I wonder if you have further info on the exact cause of the jam.

As for the original post, I have to admit that I caved in without even trying the alternatives. I've no regrets about it at all.

Thanks,

ampguy

02-12-2012, 08:20

Something in the rewind washer/bushing system gets wonky, and you can't advance. Happened to 2 of my film M's (M6 and M4P) in 2 years. Most common Leica fix for techs. Just carry a film changing bag, and spare Leica, if you have to use them.

Hi Ted,

Can you elaborate on this note? I have had one rewind jam in 14 years of use with an M6 TTL. As Murphy would have it, this happened during a trip and the loss of those frames and some shooting time was frustrating to say the least.

Your comment is so specific that I wonder if you have further info on the exact cause of the jam.

As for the original post, I have to admit that I caved in without even trying the alternatives. I've no regrets about it at all.

Thanks,

msbarnes

02-12-2012, 08:26

I'll wait a while and see if I can get a hold of a Leica to see good the viewfinder/rangefinders can really be. I've never handled one but I'd probably get one off of keh.com because returns are easy.

I handled two Canon P's and owned one shortly so I assumed that the rangefinder patches have just aged poorly or were inherently dim to begin with. Maybe it was two bad samples... I don't think I'm looking for a fantastic patch per se because I was mostly* fine focusing with the Konica Auto S2. I would have kept the P if it were as good as the Konica Auto S2.

My Retina IIIc and 120 German Folders are much easier to focus because the patches are nice and contrasty but i wanted something that was ready-to-shoot. I thought that a IIIs would be what I was looking for, but it wasn't. The viewfinder is larger, but the patch is less contrasty although a bit better than the P. I thought maybe a Barnack but then I was unsure how I'd like the dual viewfinder/rangefinder. I thought Bessa too but the inferior build quality might leave me wanting more.

The IIIs is my favorite so far, but far from perfect so I might keep it until I have the funds to go M. Or I might try Canon LTM so that I can use the same set of lenses. If I go canon LTM is the patch on the 7 better than the P? In general, that is.

35mmdelux

02-12-2012, 08:42

Get an Leica R4 [or newer] with a 50 Summicron. Compact slr, great glass and its cheap while not sacrificing quality. [Salgado shot with R6]

back alley

02-12-2012, 08:52

i owned a brand new leica m4-p and a used m3, double stroke.
both fine cameras but i never got the 'bite'...sold them both and was quite happy with a zm, 3 canon p bodies and currently shooting with 2 rd1s.

they all help us to make images...even my d90...

digitalintrigue

02-12-2012, 08:55

There are many options but the solid mechanical feel of a well-tuned Leica is unmatched. Leicas don't need constant CLAs unless the camera was previously abused. A decent camera in good shape with a CLA by a competent tech, and not abused thereafter, will go many many years without needing another.

My ideal would be an M with a back that opens like a CLE or a Zeiss Ikon. Since that will never happen, I have an M4 and a CLE. :)

jan normandale

02-12-2012, 09:01

I've gone thru two Leica M series cameras. They are respected for all the stated reasons. My go to RF and has been for about 5 years is a black R4a. Good build, the camera never misses a beat and like an M5, 6, 7, 8, 9 it's got a meter. If you don't want a meter and want an M2, 3, 4 experience just get their R4. I still have my M's but I reach for the R4a. I shoot 50mm lenses and less. It's got the frame lines for 21/25/28 and even 35 which the earlier M's don't have. I chose functionality and ease of use.

from the head bartender's site

http://www.cameraquest.com/voigt4m4aintro.htm

umcelinho

02-12-2012, 09:13

try an R2A, it'll be the same price as a BGN M2 or M3, but brand new, 1/2000, aperture priority and lightmeter if you prefer to shoot manual. as other have said, the leicas are quieter and smoother, also have more precise focus, but as a tool in daily life a Bessa is a good deal. if then you miss what a Leica will offer, then it's worth going for it.

i suggested the R2A because since it's a modern camera I feel the aperture priority should be enjoyed, it can be useful in many cases. the R2 will be cheaper, also M mount but no aperture priority. i'd skip the R because it only takes LTM lenses, so it's not as versatile as an M body.

i shoot with an M4 and an R-D1 (basically a digital R3A) mostly and each have their pros and cons, i think I enjoy the M4 for the silly pleasure of being able to shoot with a camera older than me with lenses older than my parents, with no meter... but I know an R2A would be easier to shoot with.

filmtwit

02-12-2012, 09:28

Minolta CLE?

Mackinaw

02-12-2012, 09:40

.......The IIIs is my favorite so far, but far from perfect so I might keep it until I have the funds to go M. Or I might try Canon LTM so that I can use the same set of lenses. If I go canon LTM is the patch on the 7 better than the P? In general, that is.

The viewfinder of the Canon 7/7s is quite different from the P. The 7 and 7s use projected framelines like in an M-series Leica. The P's framelines are reflected. The rangefinder patch on the 7/7s is soft-edged though, not sharp-edged like a Leica M. That being said, I find the viewfinder of the 7/7s to be much better than a P. The viewfinders of the P seemed to have aged poorly these past 50 years.

Note that not all P users will agree with me.

Jim B.

meandihagee

02-12-2012, 09:53

I was in the same situation as you. After getting the Bessa R2A I kinda felt I should have gone for a Leica or an Ikon. But after I had both in my hands I was sure I made the right choice. There is no real difference regarding viewfinder or handling. I'd rather spend the extra cash on lenses.

If you want a shooter go for the Bessa, if you think you will be lusting for the Leica mystique, well, there is no other camera that can replace that.

I'm in love with small, M, rangefinders, not Leicas. But I would definitely drop some cash on Leica lenses if I could...

CK Dexter Haven

02-12-2012, 10:00

msbarnes

02-12-2012, 10:41

Leica seems to have everything going for it, minus the price.

The purpose of this camera is primarily for low-light, so that kind of rules out SLR's because of the mirror, and I like RF focusing anyways. (Not against SLR's...I just ordered some OM's, but as tools to serve an entirely different purpose).

There is a mystique to Leica, but I feel that they are just a level above everyone else. With SLR's I feel that there are plenty of really good options. It's not like people go OM or Canon as a Nikon alternative; however, with rangefinders I feel that everything else is a Leica alternative.

I might go Bessa and splurge more on the lenses then eventually get an M. I see great deals on M bodies and lenses hear all the time. I can't really jump on an M body without a lens and vice versa.

dave lackey

02-12-2012, 10:42

Get an Leica R4 [or newer] with a 50 Summicron. Compact slr, great glass and its cheap while not sacrificing quality. [Salgado shot with R6]

Now you're talking!:cool:

ferider

02-12-2012, 10:50

msbarnes

02-12-2012, 11:16

Bay Area (Berkeley)

msbarnes

02-12-2012, 11:20

hudsong

02-12-2012, 11:24

Yeah, many RFF members have a suite of cameras, so maybe it would be better that I get in touch with some members around the area. That will save me time, money, and frustration. Not in the market now though!

I would say: Pick up and try a Zeiss and a Leica. The others aren't really worth it. It's up to you whichever suits you best.. They all do the same thing in the end. Both are incredible cameras.

ferider

02-12-2012, 11:27

Yeah, many RFF members have a suite of cameras, so maybe it would be better that I get in touch with some members around the area. That will save me time, money, and frustration. Not in the market now though!

Let us know when you are - always a good time for a "beer and gear". If you don't plan on a group shoot, but rather focus on an evening get-together and the beer, you'll likely find me there, too :)

Cheers,

Roland.

daveywaugh

02-12-2012, 13:15

daveywaugh

02-12-2012, 13:16

I should mention that I love their lenses though ;-)

Peter^

02-12-2012, 13:36

I love RFF, and spend a lot of time here. But sometimes the Leica worship really gets on my nerves.

jsrockit

02-12-2012, 14:01

Wait. You're looking for a Leica substitute, and you've decided not to try the one current in-production competitor (which many people swear by)? That just seems strange.

Two ... Zeiss and CV. However, what he's most likely saying is that he thinks only an M is going to satisfy him... so he's not going to bother with CV.

froyd

02-12-2012, 14:31

I would have said Bessas make a good option but I had three break/fail on me. Two were brand new and had to be replaced before useable. I really want to love VC Bessas but IMO they are a complete waste of money. I've just had too much go wrong with them. Perhaps I was just unlucky though...

Had an R2a for 4 years and never had an issue. Sounds like that's not everyone experience though -- certainly not yours, unfortunately. However, buying a used Leica is not guaranteed smooth sailing unless you really know the history and trust the seller.

On a personal note, I strongly encourage you to take the advice of the CA RFF members who invited you to try their gear. I also thought that i would not be happy with anything less than a Leica M but when I finaly managed to get an M4 and some Leica lenses I find myself longing for an R2M or A.

The good thing about the Leica however is that I won't lose money on the sale and I finally got the bug out of my system.

Mackinaw

02-12-2012, 14:44

I love RFF, and spend a lot of time here. But sometimes the Leica worship really gets on my nerves.

Well, the OP did post his question in the Leica M sub-forum which kind of implies the discussion will have a Leica bias.

Jim B.

digitalintrigue

02-12-2012, 14:46

Blasphemy at the altar!

:)

ferider

02-12-2012, 16:59

Bingley

02-12-2012, 17:45

msbarnes, where in CA are you ?

One thing that this thread makes obvious, is that liking Leicas (pun intended :) ) is personal. Up here in the Bay Area there are lots of RFF members, and you could try the different cameras before buying ....

Roland.

The Bay Area RFF gang met last weekend in Davis for a Beer & Gear. I think if you join us at the next B&G, you'll have no trouble trying out a Leica, or two, or three, or....

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7171/6820161141_57d440a249_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47441613@N00/6820161141/)
Davis Beer & Gear (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47441613@N00/6820161141/) by bingley0522 (http://www.flickr.com/people/47441613@N00/), on Flickr

Bingley

02-12-2012, 17:49

I think you just picked the wrong model. The best Bessa didn't even get mentioned yet; high RF contrast, long baselength, bright viewfinder :) I tried Bessa R, R2, and R3a. They're all gone but this one stayed:

http://ferider.smugmug.com/Technical/Lenses/L-Hexanon-5024/i-6BpPXL7/0/L/t2-L.jpg

+1. I had an R but sold it (kind of miss it, though). I had an R3A, but it had rf alignment problems that took $$$ to fix; I sold it. I still have the T, however. It's been on High Sierra pack trips, long vacations, been banged and bounced around, and still keeps ticking. And rf alignment in the field is a snap (if you have a small screwdriver). It's a keeper. :)

Bingley

02-12-2012, 17:55

FWIW, I also had a Canon 7 and still have a Canon P. But I find I use my Leicas more. I like the compact size, the bright vf, and the quiet shutter. It's not a fetish issue. They're just nice cameras. And w/ some careful shopping you can find them at reasonable prices. I also recommend KEH (although M prices have gone up recently). I've bought many a camera and lens from them. I bought a bargain grade M2 from them which is a joy to use.

daveywaugh

02-12-2012, 21:27

I think you just picked the wrong model. The best Bessa didn't even get mentioned yet; high RF contrast, long baselength, bright viewfinder :) I tried Bessa R, R2, and R3a. They're all gone but this one stayed:

Yeah that does look nice! ;-) I certainly don't want to be the 'guy who bags Voigtlander'... but I've got to say it how it is (for me anyway). I think I was just very unlucky and that happens sometimes. I will say the support I got from Mainlinephoto (the Voigtlander distributors here in Australia) was very good so I would defiantly risk it again in the future if something enticed me ;-)

jsrockit

02-13-2012, 03:56

I've had to M7s and 1 Zeiss Ikon. The Ikon was the better experience. If i had to do it all over again, i'd definitely get the Zeiss.

Get the Leica for your ego or if you need to impress the next guy.

And the Zeiss viewfinder is better than the Leica's - even the 'improved' MP finder. The Zeiss also has the (pretty significant) advantage of film loading, as well.

Better = your opinion, not fact. I would much rather have the Leica and I know better than to buy a Leica for Ego purposes... there are other things to waste your cash on if you want people to notice you and your wealth or taste. :rolleyes:

dave lackey

02-13-2012, 04:01

Jeez, had to check the forum heading name again...yep, it is "Leica M". Then, I checked a couple of posts and sure enough, a couple of Leica bashing posts.:p

Folks, if you don't like Leica cameras, why do you keep posting on the Leica threads? Please explain that...:rolleyes:

maddoc

02-13-2012, 04:11

Iphone 4s with "Leica - cover (http://leicarumors.com/2010/08/25/iphone-4-turns-into-a-leica-m9.aspx/)" ... :D;)

dave lackey

02-13-2012, 04:17

Better = your opinion, not fact. I would much rather have the Leica and I know better than to buy a Leica for Ego purposes... there are other things to waste your cash on if you want people to notice you and your wealth or taste. :rolleyes:

Ah...that would be an interesting discussion, no doubt.:D

Roger Hicks

02-13-2012, 04:48

. . . there are other things to waste your cash on if you want people to notice you and your wealth or taste. :rolleyes:

Exactly. This one always puzzles me. Who the hell do such people think is going to notice that they're carrying a particular camera? Unless, of course, people notice them and think, "Funny old film camera."

Cheers,

R.

Paul Jenkin

02-13-2012, 04:59

A friend of mine has a Zeiss Ikon M and the viewfinder is just excellent - much brighter than the M6/M4-P and easier to get focus right quickly. However, I still prefer my M4-P and M6TTL as they just feel so solid and make a beautiful sound when the shutter release is hit and the winder is silky-smooth.

21-135 Apo All Good

02-13-2012, 07:01

I'm with Roger on this one! I don't suffer fools lightly and anyone wearing a Leica like jewelry probably is one.

If money is an issue, get the best glass you can afford, for all the camera does is hold the film flat and expose it for a fraction of a second! So a 28mm F2.0 Summicron on a Voightlander is still a 28 'Cron!

Now where on Earth did I hear this from, lol!

willie_901

02-13-2012, 07:06

Folks, if you don't like Leica cameras, why do you keep posting on the Leica threads? Please explain that...:rolleyes:

I guess it's the same reason people cause traffic jams to eyeball an accident on the freeway. You know there's no real reasoin to look, but you have to take a peek. Besides, it's a community service to our fellow photographers who might not be too far gone.;)

furcafe

02-13-2012, 07:11

In my experience, most light leaks from the Ps are from the deterioration of the foam seals in the door near the hinge, not the shutter.

I'd avoid the Canon P's. Everyone says the shutter wrinkles are no problem, then they come back after taking photos and wonder what the light leaks are all about.

anjoca76

02-13-2012, 07:32

I have to say, I live in a fairly large city, and I seldom if ever see anyone with a film camera around his or her neck these days, let alone a Leica, so I can't quite understand the comments about Leicas being flaunted like pricey jewelry. You would have to be in-the-know to have any clue as to the value of a particular film camera. My M2 is pretty darn nondescript. I'm not saying my statement is true for anyone else, but in my experience, it's a non-issue. The only time someone has ever asked me about one of my Leicas was an elderly man who saw me change the film on my iiic one day, and, in his words, he was noticing my use of film in general, not that it was a Leica.

In my opinion, what makes heads swing my direction when I am out shooting is that I am not holding my camera up at arms' length and using a LCD screen to frame; I am actually putting a camera up to my eye to frame a shot! In a world of digital cameras, this more than anything makes me feel like a weirdo! It certainly doesn't make me feel elitist in the slightest. In fact, quite the contrary.

jsrockit

02-13-2012, 08:51

If money is an issue, get the best glass you can afford, for all the camera does is hold the film flat and expose it for a fraction of a second! So a 28mm F2.0 Summicron on a Voightlander is still a 28 'Cron!!

Except if you want a digital Leica...then it complicates things.

21-135 Apo All Good

02-13-2012, 09:14

Except if you want a digital Leica...then it complicates things.

Not to be a PITA, but the OP was going to buy a film camera.....

As far as Leica digital goes, and this is only my OPINION:

Buy the best and latest you can afford, since we all know that the latest generation of Leica is the sharpest. Leica Engineers at the Javitz Show once told me to my face that a digital M was out of the question! It takes a lot to change minds and overcome obstacles, as well as locating sources for full-frame sensors that work without a mirror box. They're still working on it. Buying sensors from a bankrupt Kodak division that's up for sale as we speak. A "work-in-progress" if you will......in the meantime, every ad for every model that they've come out with boasts in typical Leica-ease that this is the best! Whether or not someone wants to plunk down for a new M-9P is up to them......

jsrockit

02-13-2012, 09:38

Not to be a PITA, but the OP was going to buy a film camera.....

oops/ :o

Buying sensors from a bankrupt Kodak division that's up for sale as we speak. A "work-in-progress" if you will......in the meantime, every ad for every model that they've come out with boasts in typical Leica-ease that this is the best! Whether or not someone wants to plunk down for a new M-9P is up to them......

I think Kodak's sensor division was sold a few months back.

Pete B

02-13-2012, 10:17

I have really tried hard to like and use Leicas.
1 - M3 used
2 - M4-p used
2 - M6 new
2 - M6 Black paint new
2 - motors
21 50 35 75 of various types... almost all new
M8 - on loan to me

But honestly? I just don't care for them.

I see your problem. You didn't try the M2 ;):D
Pete

CK Dexter Haven

02-13-2012, 13:02

I love RFF, and spend a lot of time here. But sometimes the Leica worship really gets on my nerves.

Yes. "This," as they say.

CK Dexter Haven

02-13-2012, 13:10

This isn't about "Leica bashing." The OP said he had been looking for a "Leica alternative." It seems a pretty reasonable to see responses that contain reference to alternatives, even if the OP thinks his next move is toward a Leica.

re: the topic of Leica as "jewelry...."

It's unfortunate that so many people see that as an accusation. Whatever reference i may have made ('buy one for your ego') was half in jest. I've owned six Leicas in the past ten years. There's no need to be sensitive. It is ridiculously annoying, though to see so many web comments like:
• "don't be jealous...."
• "...if you can't afford one...."
• "a Leica distinguishes me from the rabble...."

Frankly, those attitudes pushed me away as much as other reasons. I just don't want to belong to that 'club' any longer.

Pete B

02-13-2012, 13:19

I feel "cooler" walking around with my Olympus OM1 but I just love using my M2. Just sayin'.....
Pete

Roger Hicks

02-14-2012, 00:54

. . . I've owned six Leicas in the past ten years. . .

Why?

I mean, I could understand (1) An older M (2) a newer M with meter (3) M8 (4) M8.2 (5) M9, but even that would be quite a lot in 10 years.

All right, I have (1) M2, bought so long ago I've forgotten (2) M4-P, about 1980 (3) MP c. 2002 (4) M8 (5) M9. That's 5 Ms in maybe 40 years. I also have the IIIa I bought in 1969 or so but I don't think I've bought another screw mount in well over 30 years.

As for disliking comments about Leicas as jewellery, I'm sure you'd be delighted if someone looked at your choice of (say) shoes; sniffed disapprovingly; and said, "Only witless peacocks buy those."

Cheers,

R.

sig

02-14-2012, 01:47

jsrockit

02-14-2012, 04:09

is ridiculously annoying, though to see so many web comments like:
• "don't be jealous...."
• "...if you can't afford one...."
• "a Leica distinguishes me from the rabble...."

Frankly, those attitudes pushed me away as much as other reasons. I just don't want to belong to that 'club' any longer.

Where do you see this nonsense?

Teuthida

02-14-2012, 04:30

Leica M5. Best Leica ever.

Paul Jenkin

02-14-2012, 04:33

To (mis)quote Groucho Marks:

"I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member". Not strictly true as I've belonged to a few clubs down the years but I don't believe in buying anything unless it "works" for me.

I owned and disposed with an M6 a few years back. However, almost immediately that I traded it, I missed it. Why - because of the pictures I took with it. I loved my old Summicron, the modest size, the quiet, assured click of the shutter, the build quality and the general feel of the camera. It still amazes me that the Leica engineers never worked out that the more common film loading mechanism is infinitely easier and quicker than the fiddle required with an M6 but I still love the Leica bodies and lenses.

Not a fashion statement or a "me too" purchase - just a way to get the best photos I can make.

AndySig

02-14-2012, 07:34

jsrockit

02-14-2012, 08:21

I think that anybody who bought a Leica with a view to impressing others would be doomed to disappointment as the vast majority of Joe Public doesn't know an M4 from a Nokia phone. Most of them would probably think you were just too poor to afford a "real" (i.e. digital) camera.

While my cameras do get recognized on occasion in NYC (it is a huge place with tons of people), even by attractive ladies saying "Nice Camera," these instances still only happen about 10 times a year.

The too poor thing has got to be true... since DSLRs are the most recognizable "Pro" cameras.

I remember being in a Lomo store here in NYC (8th st) and an older man saw my Leica. He said to the lady behind the counter something to the effect of " wow, you must really like his camera compared to all the ones in this store."/// She was kind of snotty after that to both of us. lol. I had to explain to him the Lomo philosophy a bit.

msbarnes

02-14-2012, 09:19

Do people really wear their cameras as jewelry? I only started shooting 6-7 months ago so many of you guys are more experienced in this regard, but I haven't heard of Leica until then. Before that, I thought this world was Nikon or Canon, and everything else was for people who couldn't afford one of those.

I've seen a few Leica's but whenever I see one I think "that guy loves shooting". The Leica shooters that I've seen tend to dress more or less normal. I feel that any film metal camera just gets as much attraction to the non-photographer croud.

Roger Hicks

02-14-2012, 12:43

I am actually surprised you have only owned three film Leica M cameras.

No, that's what I own. I've also had two M3s and one other M2. My first M3 was my first M (sold many years ago because it was useless for 35mm), followed by a black M3 bough cheap and sold at a profit (i.e. not as a 'user' camera). My second M2 was sold when I got an MP. But as I say, that's in 40 years, not 10.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks

02-14-2012, 12:47

Roger, I think you prove CK's point (There's no need to be sensitive).

Why on earth would you be offended by somebody who looked at your shoes, sniffed disapprovingly and said 'only witless peacocks buy those'?

You mean you LIKE bring called a witless peacock?

You must be a great deal thicker skinned than I. Or, indeed, than most people.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks

02-14-2012, 12:50

Maybe there should be a motto: Be inconspicuous - get an M.

Quite. But there are some people who are not susceptible to rational argument.

As the old saying goes: "My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts."

Cheers,

R.

AndySig

02-15-2012, 03:02

Quite. But there are some people who are not susceptible to rational argument.

As the old saying goes: "My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts."

Cheers,

R.

That old saying made me grin as I've not heard it for a while.

Mind you, there are whole industries that depend on the smoke and mirrors of self-deception: much of the art world, top management, politics in general and it would probably be rude not to mention the EU. At least with photography you can more or less say, "What you saw and maybe visualised is more or less what you got (if you remembered to take the lens cap off)".

sig

02-15-2012, 06:23

You mean you LIKE bring called a witless peacock?

You must be a great deal thicker skinned than I. Or, indeed, than most people.

Cheers,

R.

I still believe most people would not care....

A lot of people think Leica is a fashion statement, Leica owners who say it is not, is not going to change that. With the pricing Leica have + the Hermes editions there is no way that is going to change.

So when somebody tells you that Leica is a Prada bag, enjoy it, ignore it, nothing you say/wish for will change it.

Then again, with my shoes, maybe I am a peacock, but to be honest, I do not think I care.

sig

02-15-2012, 06:45

When I think about it with the history of Leica and photojournalism, a tool to show the bad things in the world and change it for the better. If you worry about people calling a Leica camera a fashion statement you are probably as shallow as a filed down tea spoon....

And to top it worry about other peoples opinion about your shoes, not over sensitive at all.

Deniz Merdan

02-15-2012, 07:36

One's shoes should always be better than their cameras...

Austerby

02-15-2012, 07:57

I used my Leica to take photographs in St Tropez: it was definitely regarded as a fashion object by the beautiful people there. I was just using it as I normally would.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vidwatts/2575968520/

anu L ogy

02-15-2012, 08:10

Ampguy sorry to chime in late. I had the exact same problem, and I was able to easily fix it and I am not a techie person.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107289.html

ampguy

02-15-2012, 10:31

Good info. and glad it worked for many. Keep in mind that the screw rotates opposite than normal on some cameras, and the washers/bushings underneath are sometimes deteriorated.

Ampguy sorry to chime in late. I had the exact same problem, and I was able to easily fix it and I am not a techie person.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107289.html