View Full Version : How to Pronounce Zenit, From Dillard's Department Store
tedwhite
09-29-2005, 20:36
I went into Dillard's in Sierra Vista, Arizona, due in the main because my girl friend called me and said that the store was having a 40% off the 75% sale already in progress. Having been, earlier in life, an English major in college, I naturally assumed that if I bought a ten dollar pair of pants I would get, not only the trousers, but a dollar and a half cash. So I rushed right down. My math was obviously askew, but I did buy a couple of shirts that ordinarily would have cost a fortune for twenty bucks out the door (you do the math, please).
In case you're wondering what, possibly, all of the above has to do with Zenit cameras and how to pronounce the name, I'll get immediately to the point. I was wandering about with my shirts trying to find a sales person, a not uncommon experience in the US, when I saw this lovely lass in a tailored suit with a little badge over the left chest signifying she was not only an employee but a supervisor. I asked her if she would check me out, so to speak. As we went through the ritual, I noticed an accent. She looked like a young Mexican woman you'd see in Colonia Polanco in Mexico City (upscale), black hair, brown eyes, very pale skin, elegant. But it wasn't an hispanic accent. I guessed French. Where are you from, I asked. Russia, she said.
While waiting for the computer to do its thing, I told her about this forum and about having bought some FSU cameras. She looked at me for a bit, then said, Oh, did you buy a Zenit? I confessed to having done so.
But the way she pronounced Zenit surprised me. I think most Americans would say "ZEE-NIT," with the accent on the first syllable.
She, did not. "ZEH-NEET," she said, with a pronounced accent on the second syllable. My father gave me one when I was in school, she added. It took good pictures.
Ted
Gabriel M.A.
09-29-2005, 20:47
Sometimes it's good to know where to make the right emf-asis on the right syl-lable ;)
RFF member Natalia is from Russia, and her web site has .wav files on how to pronounce russion names. If you find a post that she responded to, it usually has the link attached. I found out that Kiev is pronounced with accent on the first syllable too, and that the final 'V' if pronounced more like an 'F'.
Right Ted, she's got the emphasis correct.
The thread is http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3883 and the site is www.camerafool.com .
tedwhite
09-30-2005, 06:21
I forgot to mention it, but I also asked her to pronounce "Kiev" and, indeed, she ended it with an "F" sound. (She was clueless about FED as she had never heard of it).
Ted
Fed sounds the same
Moskva, Iskra (stress on a)
Zorkii (stress on o, roll the r, and at the end a sound hard to describe, like the last sound of the word day)
RichardS
09-30-2005, 07:34
The whole thing reminds me of a song from some movie, don't recall which one, but it supposedly took place an a Caribbean island, and an island group sings:
On the island from which we come
We have a national characteristic that is very strong
We put the accent on the wrong syl LA ble when we sing
A tropical song.
Dick
I always thought it was Zeh-neet. I think many non-English languages tend to pronounce vowels exactly the way they're spelled--at least my country's language does. So A is always pronounced as in BAT, not in SABLE. Or E always as in ELEPHANT. English is tricky.:)
wlewisiii
10-01-2005, 18:46
Tricky? English is the Borg of languages. We assimilate everything and then ask for more... :D
Actually we just past the anniversary of William arriving in England as King in 1066. That's the real key date because that's when a german family language got forcibly united with a romance family language. That (nearly literally) ******* of languages then got off on a roll that's still going to this day. English does not know it's father and does not remember it's mother... and that's both it's strength and it's weakness. For example, it has given us the Shakespeare, the Book of Common Prayer and many other works of art while also allowing for the utter desecration of the language that both Slick Willy and Dubya have performed.
In the meantime, I really gotta buy a decent M42 camera... Which is really silly because I recently sold a very good one. Ah, well, perhaps I'll find a Bessaflex cheap... (!)
:)
William
tedwhite
10-01-2005, 20:59
William:
I have a very nice M42 Pentax Spotmatic Sp body that was just CLA'd by Eric (former head of the Pentax repair division - lives in Sharps Chapel, TN). I have more of these than I need. This particular one, as I recall, even has a new meter cell.
Ted
wlewisiii
10-01-2005, 21:39
Ted: I really didn't need to know that... :D Argh. I'll scope out the budget.
William
Thanks Ted for the story. I too have seen a young lady working at a bank I frequent who also has a "suspicious" accent. I keep thinking that one day my timing will be right so that I may inquire of her from whence her accent comes. Maybe I'll start the conversation with, "Skuze me darlin', I was just curious. Which sy-LA-bulls do ya'll put your emf-ASS-ees on?"
tedwhite
10-02-2005, 07:24
Glad it's you that's gonna do this, instead of me. Better yet, write it down on a piece of paper and hand it to her.
Oh yeah. Leave written evidence of my stupidity!! .... :cool: .... Oh, well, it wouldn't be the first time. I do it here regularly. ... But after rethinking the whole idea, I'll probably just go about my merry way and mind my own business. I'd prefer to be able to show my face in that bank again.
TPPhotog
10-02-2005, 13:46
I guess we could all try to speak the Queens English .... oooops that's German and FSUs aren't English either .... ooooops grabs tin hat and ducks for cover LOL
Interesting thread though ;)
vanyagor
09-22-2006, 00:18
Fed sounds the same
Moskva, Iskra (stress on a)
Zorkii (stress on o, roll the r, and at the end a sound hard to describe, like the last sound of the word day)
Actually the stress in the word Iskra is on I. In fact in russian there might be 2 different uses of stress in the word Iskra. Linguistically correct is stress on the first syll. However professionals use it with stress on the second syll (iskra = spark). If you are an ellectrical engineer and talk about electrical sparks you will strees on the second syll. and it will be correct.
In respect to the cameras "Iskra" the correct way to spell it with stress on the first syll.
Kiev: there are pairs of consonants in Russian: d and t, v and f, b and p etc. The first in the pair is called "voiced" and the second: surd (or unvoiced) - not sure how they call it in English. Anyway, a "voiced" consonat always gets devoiced if it is standing at the end of the word and in some other situations. Basically replaced by its pair. So v is being spelled as f (if it is at the end of the word). If you have ever heard a russian speaking English you probably noticed that we always "devoice" the last consonat in the word (d replaced by t, v by f etc)
Also i and e are spelled separately and e is spelled as a German whould spell the combination "je" or "ji" (or similar to the first sound in Englsih "yes"). This is actually how this letter is called in Russian.
Vowels also form pairs such as o and a, e and i etc. If the first of the pair vowel is not under stress, it is being speled as it's partner. I.o o is spelled alsmost like a if not under stress.
Well on top of that russian a is not really spelled the same way as english sound a :) And that is true almost about any sound. It might be close but not really the same.
So far I'm glad to be french !
Seems a bit easier for me to understand russian spellings :rolleyes:
anyway, for this very interesting thread : spassiba bolchoï tovaritch
Don't loose your appetite trying to pronounce it :D
In every sentence, when pronouncing Iskra, the inclination will be made on the last letter 'a' and never on I. Unless you saying iskorka, where inclination is made on 'i' and it translates to sparkle.
Zenit.
The second letter is pronounced as 'ee', Similar it's pronounced in word pepper. The inclination is on letter 'i', however, and it is pronounced as in the word 'milk'
So Z-ee-n-i-t.
Fed.
For non-russian speakers, it will be very difficult to pronounce this word. As the 2nd letter "Э" does not exist in English alphabet.
Zorki, is pronounced as Zorkiy.
fed isn't that hard. FYEE-D
the "e" should be pronounced like "a" in "arrow"
btw. I had russian at school for 8 years :D
btw. I had russian at school for 8 years :D
Russian is my first language. :D
Having majored in and taught Spanish, I'm well of aware of the foibles between languages. Spanish is far more "set" in its pronunciation of letters.
The basic cause of all this is what are called "phonemes" - the minimal difference between words that changes the meaning. (bit, pit, sit, etc.) English has far more more "phonemic" differences than Spanish, and I suspect, many other languages. Our so-called "short" vowels are a special pain, and explain why Spanish speakers make "hat" sound to us like "hot".
As it happens, I spent 32 years teaching at a jr. high in East L. A. Besides Spanish I also taught ESL (English as a Second Language). Try to get Spanish- speaking kids to understand that "live" is not the same as "leave", and you have your hands full. It's just because Spanish doesn't HAVE that difference. That's why we talk about "accents".
P.S. I might add that reading and writing are a totally different process than speaking, and writing only "sort of" represents speaking. For reasons that no one totally understands, only human beings are capable of speech, and writing is a totally human-invented addition to things. Any normal child will learn to speak his/her native language, but what does "illiterate" mean?? That takes a lttle more time.
Found an example for the letter 'e' in FED or more correctly "э" in ФЭД. It sounds like the first letter 'e' in electricity.
clarence
09-23-2006, 07:27
At least the aforementioned languages are alphabetical.
Studying (or teaching) a non-alphabetical language is infinitely harder. If one were to only learn the oral aspect, it would not be much more difficult, and in fact I would say that Chinese and Japanese pronounciations have fewer irregularities than most Western languages.
It's learning the written characters that kills you.
Clarence
ZorkiKat
09-23-2006, 08:16
fed isn't that hard. FYEE-D
the "e" should be pronounced like "a" in "arrow"
It was spelled "ФЭД" not "ФЕД". "E" could be read as "ye" but "Э" would be "e" as in "egg". Or "Eff- Eh-Deh"? :D FED is an acronym for F.E. Dzherzinski. On the labels and marks, "FED" always appear in all caps (upper case) letters.
Zorkii would probably sound like "zahRkee", Kiev sounds like "kee-yeff".... :D
Jay (Джэй=Dzhey)
ZorkiKat
09-23-2006, 08:23
At least the aforementioned languages are alphabetical.
Studying (or teaching) a non-alphabetical language is infinitely harder. If one were to only learn the oral aspect, it would not be much more difficult, and in fact I would say that Chinese and Japanese pronounciations have fewer irregularities than most Western languages.
It's learning the written characters that kills you.
Clarence
Hi Clarence
At least in Chinese, each character (with the exception of a very few ones) are read the same way in the same language. It's possible to write the same characters and have it read in Mandarin, Cantonese or Fujianese with the same meaning. Read aloud in these languages, the words would sound different.
Written Japanese uses both alphabet ( "kana"-which spells out the words) and Chinese characters ('kanji'). The latter is a killer. A particular character can be read several ways, depending on the context it's written. One method suggested to me to read Japanese took several steps:
first recognise what the character stood for, then think of the Japanese word(s) and possible pronunciations given for it, and then use the most appropriate for the context.. :)
Jay (我不能读汉语！:D ）
Moskva, Iskra (stress on a)
Wrong. The correct (literary) accent for Iskra is on 'i'. EEskra.
Wrong. The correct (literary) accent for Iskra is on 'i'. EEskra.
Perhaps, the official rule states that inclination shall be made on the letter ‘I’ in the word Iskra. However, most native speakers would say Iskraaa. Besides, the language is constantly evolving and the rules are changing. Quite frankly, I don’t care who wrote the rules 50-60 years ago. What important is how 70%-80% of Russian speakers pronounce the word Iskra.
Heh, as a Russian, I find this discussion rather silly.
Heh, as a Russian, I find this discussion rather silly.
Well, as a native Russian speaker I don't. There's nothing wrong with curiosity.
And yeah, I would rather spell Iskra with emphasis on "a".
vanyagor
09-25-2006, 12:21
In every sentence, when pronouncing Iskra, the inclination will be made on the last letter 'a' and never on I. Unless you saying iskorka, where inclination is made on 'i' and it translates to sparkle.
No. As I have said the correct stress is on I. And the stress is always on I in any sentence. (Unless the word is being used in a technical talk.) As for the camera "Iskra" in particular the accent must be on I.
Some people might make the stress on a, but this is not correct.
vanyagor
09-25-2006, 12:29
Perhaps, the official rule states that inclination shall be made on the letter ‘I’ in the word Iskra. However, most native speakers would say Iskraaa. Besides, the language is constantly evolving and the rules are changing. Quite frankly, I don’t care who wrote the rules 50-60 years ago. What important is how 70%-80% of Russian speakers pronounce the word Iskra.
That is not correct. That depends on the region you live. Where I'm from 100% of (educated) people would say Iskra with stress on I. And that is the standard.
Even though I agree some of the words can be speled differently in a convo, the word Iskra as for the camera or for the infamous magazine simply can not be spelled with the stress on a. It will be very very wrong!
Heh, as a Russian, I find this discussion rather silly.
As a non-Russian, I find that this is the kind of discussion that only Russians can have :)
Seriously, Russian accents are more ambiguous than Russian lexicography would have it. I think few linguistic traditions are so obsessed with having Only One True Version like in Russian, and whenever there is a case of real ambiguity people either arbitrarily choose one version or have a fight... I guess during the repressions people were sent to Siberia over ambiguous cases. It's like твóрог vs. творóг, only that in this case people have accepted the the ambiguity eventually and both versions are acceptable. I had a discussion once whether it was нáчался or начался́ with five Russians, and it ended with them having a very personal argument about it.
Ozhegov says и́скра with the accent on the I, and while Ozhegov isn't always right it's still fine with me that way.
Philipp
vanyagor
09-25-2006, 13:59
As a non-Russian, I find that this is the kind of discussion that only Russians can have :)
Seriously, Russian accents are more ambiguous than Russian lexicography would have it. I think few linguistic traditions are so obsessed with having Only One True Version like in Russian, and whenever there is a case of real ambiguity people either arbitrarily choose one version or have a fight... I guess during the repressions people were sent to Siberia over ambiguous cases. It's like твóрог vs. творóг, only that in this case people have accepted the the ambiguity eventually and both versions are acceptable. I had a discussion once whether it was нáчался or начался́ with five Russians, and it ended with them having a very personal argument about it.
Ozhegov says и́скра with the accent on the I, and while Ozhegov isn't always right it's still fine with me that way.
Philipp
Well, all you say is right, with one exception. This particular case is not ambiguous. ;) There is an (almost) definite rule how to spell Iskra in that or that situation. If stress on a is acceptable and even preferable in a technical talk (when you are talking about electrical sparks), it is till unappropriate in literature. Here are some examples (for those who can read russian, where spelling word Iskra with a stress on a will sound extremely wierd:
- gazeta Iskra
- fotoapparat Iskra
- iskra soznanija
- mezhdu nimi proskochila iskra
- Iz iskry vozgoritsya plamya
- bozh'ja iskra
Spelling this with the stress on a would sound very very wrong, even though some russians might do this mistake too.
Actually I can not find any examples where Iskra can be spelled with a stress on a (unless you mean an electrical spark)
Iskra with stress on A is fine, unless you are from Moscow or stuck in 19th century :)
Iskra with stress on A is fine, unless you are from Moscow or stuck in 19th century :)
To me it sounds a little weird, and I'm neither from Moscow nor a time-traveller. But then I'm not one to get hung up on pronunciations.
Also, the Iskra is just too beautiful to be pronounced incorrectly :))
Gabriel M.A.
09-25-2006, 19:41
Now, it is "nuclear", not "noo-koo-ler", right? ;)
And who would know the language better if not people?
Millions of flies cannot err? ;)
Having that said, it's probably much more important how you use your Iskra rather than how you pronounce its name.
Had you been 100% educated you would have been a little more articulate with your English.
This is what I mean by "things get personal".
And who would know the language better if not people?
The problem with this approach is that he's a native speaker, and hence is always right, too.
Philipp
This is what I mean by "things get personal".
The problem with this approach is that he's a native speaker, and hence is always right, too.
Philipp
I came a little harsh at his remarks. It never meant to be personal. :)
To me it sounds a little weird, and I'm neither from Moscow nor a time-traveller. But then I'm not one to get hung up on pronunciations.
Well, to many say the use of "nu" in place of "da", common across a number of regions in Russia, also sounds weird. Point however is that neither is inherently "more correct", both were in use well before Stalin-era grammar (the same that brought us lowercase God and capitalized Fatherland) was written and enforced. In case of iskra, Lenin's "Из искры разгорится пламя" with apparent emphasis on 'i' could be enough of the reason to declare it the one "proper" spelling.
It is important to realise that languages define dictionaries, not vice versa. Languages evolve, and whether (and how) a word belongs to it is determined by use pattern in statistically significant group of native speakers. For those interested in language evolution, Sapir's Language (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12629) is freely available, it is a fundamental work in linguistics, very readable and insightful text.
vanyagor
09-26-2006, 00:28
Also, the Iskra is just too beautiful to be pronounced incorrectly :))
That's exactly my feeling. :)
Russian is my native (and beloved :) ) language and it really hurts when it is being misused. Might be my own problem though.
And indeed I'm from Moscow. ;)
Also I really doubt Stalin had anything to do with pronounciation of the word Iskra.
Just out of curiosity I asked my russian speaking friends here at the U how would they spell the word Iskra (note that none of them was from Moscow :) ) Most responded wihtout any hesitation it was I'skra and only 1 said Iskra' (he was not russian though) :) However that does not prove anything. For a reliable source check out any dictionary :) Indeed languages create dictionaries, so anyone can check it out there.
Also I'm sorry if my English looks wrong to you. And of course I do not consider myself 100% educated.
Just out of curiosity I asked my russian speaking friends here at the U how would they spell the word Iskra (note that none of them was from Moscow :) ) Most responded wihtout any hesitation it was I'skra and only 1 said Iskra' (he was not russian though) :) However that does not prove anything. For a reliable source check out any dictionary :) Indeed languages create dictionaries, so anyone can check it out there.
You live and you learn Ivan :)
"ИСКРА, род. искры; мн. искры, род. искр и в профессиональной речи искра, род. искры". Cited from "Словарь трудностей произношения и ударения в современном русском языке" by K. S. Gorbachevich.
Languages develop and evolve, it's better to keep up than insist that everyone not practicing 1950s Moscow dialect is illiterate and uneducated :)
vanyagor
09-26-2006, 01:15
You live and you learn Ivan :)
"ИСКРА, род. искры; мн. искры, род. искр и в профессиональной речи искра, род. искры". Cited from "Словарь трудностей произношения и ударения в современном русском языке" by K. S. Gorbachevich.
Languages develop and evolve, it's better to keep up than insist that everyone not practicing 1950s Moscow dialect is illiterate and uneducated :)
hm. That is exactly what I have said. I'skra the correct spelling, and Iskra' in professional use. Check out my very first comment ;) That is a rather general rule in russian, where the stress is being moved in professional use. I.e when you talk about electrical sparks you'd rather stress on the last syllable.
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