Fuji X1 M adapter - focus?

[chris00nj]

Leica rumors is reporting that there would be an M mount adapter for this camera. Anyone have any idea how you would focus an M-mount lens on a camera like this?

[Flix Vicious]

With your hand?

[chris00nj]

I don't think the Fuji has a split beam rangefinder or a cam follower to determine how the lens is focused. So when you turn the lens how do you know if you are focusing at the correct distance?

[christian.rudman]

Like all the m43 cameras it is going to be zone through the optical finder and really only able to confirm focus through the evf. They don't even have focus confirmation for the x lenses in the ovf, so you'll only have true focus feedback through the evf. It's all about the af in this camera unless you can shoot zone in optical.

[Adanac]

At this point the word is that the X Pro 1 lacks the focus peaking feature found in Sony NEX and the Ricoh GXR M Mount module, which leaves you only image magnification if you want focus TTL.

The Sony NEX had about the best EVF I've used, miles better than my X100's and in fact better than the GXR, but the GXR's Mode 2 focus assist actually makes focusing easier and in the end that is the camera I chose to run my M lenses on. I use Mode 2, often with magnification, but hardly ever use magnification without Mode 2.

As I basically never used image magnification only on either the NEX or the GXR it is probably a safe bet that I won't buy an X Pro 1 on spec in the hopes that somehow magnification is usable for me on that camera when it hasn't been with others.

A well done focus assist makes focusing both more accurate and quicker. I still use zone focusing but focus assist even helps there in that it'll give you visual confirmation.

Since this is a software feature, it can be added in time and hopefully Fujifilm will by the time they release their own M adapter. Some precedent for this exists - Sony didn't have their focus peaking implemented in the first NEX but later added it, perhaps because they saw the enthusiasm for alt-glass on their platform. Smart move on their part.

[Leigh Youdale]

My own thoughts are that manual focus is going to become an afterthought in any digital camera design eventually, notwithstanding the cries of anguish from "legacy" lens owners. Lens and camera design has moved on, automatic focus can be made to work well - several manufacturers have proven that - and nostalgia won't be much of an influence in future generations of camera design. Except maybe Leica.
So if you value manual focus above all else, keep your older gear well-serviced!

[chris00nj]

So other than the Rd1 and leicas everything is just zone or something slow. Its not that i love manually focusing, i just like the lenses i own. It looks like the Fuji wont be the Rd2, that i was hoping for.

[Avotius]

If Fuji had put in split beam rangefinder focusing and a cam to register focus distance for leica m mount lenses this camera would have been a much bigger press event then it has already been, so yes I believe it is ok for you to think they didnt add those features in.

That said, glad they didnt, gives Leica a chance to think about future products rather than sticking them 6 feet in the ground.

[Reddot9]

My guess would be strictly zone focus off of lens markings offset by the crop factor.

[ferider]

Technically, with the hybrid viewfinder and life sensor, a lot is possible; focus confirmation being the most simple implementation. Let's wait and see ...

[kanzlr]

So other than the Rd1 and leicas everything is just zone or something slow. Its not that i love manually focusing, i just like the lenses i own. It looks like the Fuji wont be the Rd2, that i was hoping for.

with the GXR it is actually pretty fast. As fast as with a classic SLR, basically.

[chris00nj]

Okay, I found an good article (http://sonyalphanex.blogspot.com/2011/06/sony-nex-focus-peaking-closer-look.html)which describes "focus peaking" (on the Sony Nex) well.

Even so, the EVF alone may do a decent job focus. Now can I just live with a 1.5x crop factor?

[sojournerphoto]

I think that Fuji have said that there'll be an M adaptor.

Focus remains to be seen, but if it's supported by Fuji then hopefully will be OK.

[dreilly]

I just can't see any MF implementation with Leica glass that will offer anything that other cameras don't. If you rely on focus peaking, then you need to use the EVF function...the OVF will be useless. If you have focus confirmation, then you can use the OVF and maybe set the frameline but parallax correction? And focus confirmation is just autufocus where you do the work of the motor, you're still relying on the contrast detection routines off the sensor...so similar issues to AF in terms of accuracy, spot size of focus point, etc. I'm not sure what other possibilities there are. Might be a fantastic camera, but I just don't see any area to innovate in terms of legacy lens support that will differentiate it from the Nex 7 or Ricoh GXR or Nex 5n with the EVF. Other than looking like a rangefinder camera.

[chris00nj]

...I just don't see any area to innovate in terms of legacy lens support that will differentiate it from the Nex 7 or Ricoh GXR or Nex 5n with the EVF. Other than looking like a rangefinder camera.

No I don't think it will be much different, but have never gotten the chance to put a legacy lens on the Nex or even seen the Ricoh, so I didn't know what their systems were either.

I think the only difference with the X-Pro 1 and the NEX is that you can focus with your eye up to the viewfinder

[ChrisC]

.... can I just live with a 1.5x crop factor?

Easily, if the file images are as good as expected. Whether your master images remain as computer file zeros and ones, or your portfolio of beautifully mastered 24 or 30 inch exhibition prints are selected by The Museum of Modern Art for your major retrospective.

The sensor is the size it is for very good system-design reasons.

......... Chris

[Bobfrance]

The owner's manual is available for download here...

http://photorumors.com/2012/01/26/fuji-x-pro1-owners-manual-now-available-online/

As far as I can see the only manual focus aid it offers is zooming via the EVF.

[bwcolor]

No focus peaking.. so I won't be purchasing unless there is a firmware update with the introduction of the M Mount. I will wait for one of these companies to find a way to get autofocus up to mid-level DSLR standards and then I'll buy another autofocus camera. If focus peaking is available with the M-Mount and the camera plays nice with my Biogons, then that is a different story.

[kanzlr]

good thing there is a Japanese company that builds a digital camera that is designed for M mount lenses in the first place ;)

[bwcolor]

If only that company would have a NEX-7 like EVF and an XPro1 like sensor. If pigs could fly.

[dct]

(corrected crosspost from another thread)

...
...
Fuji could surprise me and release firmware in conjunction with the M adapter that invokes focus peaking or some other efficient method for focusing with analog lenses. I'd like that sort of surprise.

My expectation is to have at least a solution to match up with Nex and GXR-M bodies. That would mean EVF only with AF confirmation. If Fuji would go a few steps further than the competitors, they might add things like custom frame line in OVF (mentioned on page 70 of the user manual) or an adapter with focussing cam readout or whatever they are testing...

Apart from that I'm still not sure how the DoF prompt in the distance scale is computed, also for the own XF lenses. Does it come from a lens database (or directly from the lens) or is this something calculated "on the fly", derived from current AF readout during focussing and changing aperture?

[kanzlr]

If only that company would have a NEX-7 like EVF and an XPro1 like sensor. If pigs could fly.

indeed. Still better to focus than the NEX.
the solution to the problem for me was to sell the NEX, now I don't think about its nice EVF anymore ;)

[dreilly]

Two weeks have gone by and still no more details on focusing manual lenses. Well, I guess we have established beyond a reasonable doubt that the X-1 Pro does not have a split-beam rangefinder!

So for manual focus: if you're using the LCD or EVF, how do you magnify the view and how do you get back to full composition view?

And is there any kind of focus confirmation using the OVF?

Does anyone know?

[Benjamin Marks]

How does it work in the X100?

[willie_901]

This is simply a wait and see situation. The Ricoh GXR A12 M-Mount unit is really the best mirror less solution right now as the A12 was designed with one single priority... work well with M/LTM optics.

Maybe Fuji is releasing their adapter because it's an easy way to sell a value added accessory. In this case their adapter is just an after thought.

Or, maybe Fuji knows that M optics will work well with the XP-1 sensor. Maybe they have a viable way to focus mechanical lenses ready for release with the M adapter. Maybe they are delaying a functional M solution until the initial wave of demand for the camera and X-mount lenses subsides.

Every one is guessing because anyone who knows the facts isn't talking.

[Arjay]

One thing is for sure, neither the X100 nor the X-Pro 1 are using split-beam focusing. Fuji has never made any claims in that direction, and all technical data published to date prove that this camera is NOT a classical RF system.

There have been many speculations if an M-to-X adapter might contain a cam follower to read out the M lens' actual focusing distance as that would enable (a) OVF parallax correction, (b ) a distance and DoF-display in the viewfinder, and (c ) a simulation of a split-image focusing function.

However, some leaked photos of a Fuji M-to-X adapter prototype indicate that the adapter does not contain such a function. So all we're stuck with are speculations if, and what kind of MF focus assist functions Fuji might offer as firmware update if and when such an adapter would appear on the market.

I would just love to be proven wrong.

[Adanac]

Two weeks have gone by and still no more details on focusing manual lenses.

The details remain the same. The X-Pro1 is, like the X100, first and foremost an autofocus camera designed to work best with the company's AF lenses. Manual focus, even with the company's own lenses, is an afterthought.

Current firmware provides no other focus assist other than zoom. There is a button on the back of the X100 and X-Pro1 you can depress to toggle the zoom on and off. The EVF in the X-Pro1 is said to be the same as the EVF in the X100. That being the case, my opinion is that only providing magnify as an assist will not be sufficient for the dedicated manual focus M lens shooter, based on my own experience with the X100. The current EVF has insufficient resolution to provide fine detail when zoomed.

I'm not even convinced the current EVF provides enough resolution on which to overlay a focus peaking display, should Fujifilm get around to implementing one.

Given that the X100 still doesn't have a firmware update that moves the Auto ISO toggle into the ISO menu for quick and logical access, despite widespread calls from the user community to code up this very simple change, it seems foolish to me - or perhaps "false-confidence" is a better way of putting it - to purchase an early X-Pro1 with the hope that a firmware update will deliver a focus peaking feature down the road. It seems safer to wait.

Or buy the X-Pro1 with no expectations other than using it as an AF camera with the company's AF lenses.

Well, I guess we have established beyond a reasonable doubt that the X-1 Pro does not have a split-beam rangefinder!

There was never any expectation that this camera had such a feature. Probably you can safely rule out any digital camera having this feature other than Leica's digital Ms.

And is there any kind of focus confirmation using the OVF?

No.

The benefits of the OVF to manual focus lens users will be limited. Here's a workflow:


Before using the lens(es), input your focal lengths into a table in the camera.
Mount lens, select from table the lens you've mounted. This will cause the frame lines in the OVF to adjust to the calculated field of view. It'll probably also cause the OVF magnification to kick in to one of its three positions.
Switch to EVF and focus. Either remain in EVF and make the image, or,
Switch to OVF and recompose and make the image.
Return to EVF for next focus.


Or you can use zone focus when that is appropriate.

Users will probably find that they remain in the EVF more than not, unless they need the specific properties of the OVF to make their photographs, namely a view greater than the frameline for the focal length as an assist for timing; and an optical viewfinder many will enjoy simply because it isn't a limited rendition.

That said with my X100 I used the EVF more often than not - subject dependent - because I like to frame more accurately when I can. The framelines in the OVF were not that accurate despite parallax correction in a fixed single lens camera and I don't expect them to be any more accurate in an interchangeable lens camera.

When I need to see outside the frame with an electronic finder camera (like the NEX or GXR) I pull my eye away from the EVF and use the rear live view display. Despite being a viewfinder die-hard and something of a curmudgeon on the topic, I've found that using the rear display actually works quite well - a window on the world if you will - that does give me the opportunity to time shots where a subject will enter the frame thanks to the heads up you get seeing beyond the frame, just as with an optical viewfinder.

[250swb]

I don't know that this will be any more complicated than using an M adapter on a m4/3 body like a Panasonic G1 etc. To start with the EVF causes the image to really 'pop' when you hit the correct focus, its very easy to see. And you can press a button to magnify the area you want in focus as well. So OK, no focus confirmation other than your own eyes, but hasn't that mostly been the case since photography was invented?

Steve

[Adanac]

Sure - we use our eyes to focus manual focus lenses on film cameras, but most of those cameras benefit from some sort of focus assist. Focus screens designed to make focus faster and more accurate - such as microprism collars or split centres - those are focus assists. Some photographers need fast focus, some only need accurate focus, many need both. An assist can get you there.

The same is true with electronic display of focus information.

If a camera has a poor resolution EVF - and any EVF is already far behind an optical display in terms of resolution / resolving power - then yes, certainly it can get in the way of achieving focus accurately or quickly. No?

I've not used the G1 but have extensively used the X100 and the X-Pro1 shares the same EVF according to Fujifilm. I'm dead certain that I would not want to be using manual focus lenses extensively while chained to a hobbled EVF like that one. Maybe the G1's is better; the X100/X-Pro1 EVF is insufficient to the task.

[dreilly]

Just to be clear, I was never under any impression that the X-1 Pro had an actual rangefinder mechanism. Posters earlier in the thread seemed to be treating it as a possibility, which was clearly the most wishful of thinking.

I use the GXR with manual lenses and that has focus peaking and magnification...it works fine. It's just too bad that the neatest thing about the X-1 Pro, which is the OVF and its overlay, appears useless, making the X-1 Pro a lot less special if you're using M glass on it.

That doesn't mean it isn't a cracking good camera in its own right, with its own lenses. Thanks for clarifying the MF functions, however.

[DougFord]

...as others have stated, these cameras are designed as AF cameras from the get- go. Manual focus capability is an after, after thought :rolleyes: