View Full Version : Nikon reveals it's mirrorless '1' system
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092120nikonlaunch.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092115nikonlenses.asp
http://www.nikon.com/news/2011/img/pic_110921_11.jpg
Ok I'll go first...
'meh'... looks like a black blob, lenses are slow, sensor is small. Not interested myself.
ItsReallyDarren
09-20-2011, 21:26
Funky crop factor at 2.7x.
Would be interesting to see how its size compares with its competitors.
hans voralberg
09-20-2011, 21:28
I don't know, looks clean and nice to me, I dont like too many contours. Agree about the sensor choice though, a bit too small.
Frank Version Two
09-20-2011, 21:34
Stupid looking "1" on the side panel.
The software sounds scary and lame, it takes a lot of photos and uses facial recognition to identify the best photos automagically. Of course this will be duplicated and enhanced by most of the other camera companies too.
Yet they left out any social media or photo sharing applications.
It looks like it is completely consumer orientated although it is priced crazily -- almost twice as high as it should be to bridge the gap between compacts and DSLRS. At least Sony put the NEX 3 at a price point to bring people into the system. This is mainly going to steal people who might otherwise buy a D3100 kit.
Once again a camera company made a product that has some nice qualities but they seem to have forgotten how even slightly more than newbie photographers want from their cameras....
I was surprised when Pentax introduced their similar system, am not anymore. seems targeted where money is.
wonder whats future of plain point-n-shoot's ? will camera phones replace those entirely ?
An interesting video. They have some good ideas at least... I like the little tiny speedlight...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gurU5UVnBuI#!
Archlich
09-20-2011, 21:54
It offers both contrast and phase detection focus. Sounds good.
"select the best photo for you" disappoints me a little. Letting the machine decide for you. Nah.
keytarjunkie
09-20-2011, 21:55
From the company that remade the S3 and the SP in the 21st century...this is incredibly disappointing (but not unexpected).
This rather colossally dull announcement might provide an opportune moment to point out that — contrary to gibberish that one reads here and all over the web — FF cameras are not getting cheaper very quickly, and are not poised to take over any markets that they have already taken over. Indeed, the market for FF cameras looks to be headed nowhere but down.
We do, of course, know why this is: (1) Moore's Law doesn't help you a bit if you're tied to a fixed and large plot of silicon; (2) smaller sensors are already plenty good for most people, and are continuing to get better and better; (3) big sensors dissipate too darned much heat, and thus too much power, and so require rather big cameras* with rather big batteries. The linked problems of heat dissipation and power consumption are of course compounded if the sensor is always on, as it is in live view or while capturing video, both of which are what we refer to as the future.
All of this makes me chortle.
Did I mention that I stockpiled another 300 feet of lovely unexposed film in my freezer today? (Digital is for work; film is for fun.)
*Yes, the M9 is big and, especially, heavy. Compare it to an M6, or even better, to a Pentax ME Super or a Ricoh GR-1. If you're feeling especially cruel, compare the M9 to an NEX-5 or an E-PL3.
the sensor is too small and the size of the lens doesnt justify the size of the sensor.
Ronald_H
09-20-2011, 22:02
Meh.
They look like potentially good cameras, but that crop factor... my money remains on the Sony NEX system.
Warren T.
09-20-2011, 22:15
The camera takes 20 quick shots in a row, then it chooses the best one, and provides 4 other alternatives. That is so wrong.
Moriturii
09-20-2011, 22:29
Looks really good! But when I say 'looks' I really mean just the looks and nothing else :/
Are you buying 100' rolls and reloading? I did that when in school and have thought it the best way to buy and store - but quality cassettes are an issue. Leica made some really nice cassettes long ago.
Sorry to thread hijack... Yes, I'm bulk loading about 2/3 of my film.
(And no, I have no problem whatsoever with digital, which on balance has mostly superior technical characteristics; I just enjoy messing about with film.)
The camera takes 20 quick shots in a row, then it chooses the best one, and provides 4 other alternatives. That is so wrong.
Yeah, I'm told by extremely reliable sources that Nikon engineers call it the "Fast Winogrand Transform"* -- the standard version of that algorithm being too computationally expensive** to implement with current image processing pipelines.
* a.k.a. the MMWAMLM (million monkeys with a million Leica M's) algorithm.
** The Standard Winogrand algorithm involves taking about twenty thousand quick shots in a row, and picking one. The Standard Winogrand algorithm is of course a theoretical construct that has never actually been implemented.
Lettuce beef real tea - this 'system' is completely outclassed by m4/3 in every possible way.
m4/3 has a bigger sensor, but it still as compact.
m4/3 has the similar size lenses, but with bigger sensor.
m4/3 has an array of lenses from zooms to fast primes to tiny pancakes.
m4/3 has the choice of 2 EVF's which can clip on to any body
m4/3 cameras are significantly nicer looking (e-pX especially)
m4/3 has the option of real control dials for advanced users, and direct access buttons
I'm a bit miffed with what nikon was thinking?
Hey fdigital, we still have to wait to see the sensor performance. I remember seeing a test where the tiny Pentax Q sensor holds its own against the larger m4/3 sensors in DR.
Edit: I just noticed the user interface. Touche, fdigital, touche.
Frank Version Two
09-20-2011, 23:03
It's aimed at the average family photographer who wants a nice camera and thinks a DSLR is too large. Compared to the little compact they've been using for the last five years, the image quality should be a big leap forward.
Never mind that it will be a huge leap downward from a basic DSLR, the virtues of the smaller sensor will be seen as a benefit - more in focus shots, longer battery life, etc.
Unfortunately it seems to offer nothing for most experienced photographers.
Hey fdigital, we still have to wait to see the sensor performance. I remember seeing a test where the tiny Pentax Q sensor holds its own against the larger m4/3 sensors in DR.
The thing is, even if it matches m4/3 performance completely in sensor IQ, it's still a smaller sensor with less DOF control etc, but without any discernible size advantage...
ItsReallyDarren
09-20-2011, 23:15
You hit the nail on the head there. Compacts are facing competition from cell phones with cameras. The small compacts are losing their edge in convenience so they have to offer something else. This offering from Nikon could offer a little step up over current compact point and shoots.
It's aimed at the average family photographer who wants a nice camera and thinks a DSLR is too large. Compared to the little compact they've been using for the last five years, the image quality should be a big leap forward.
Never mind that it will be a huge leap downward from a basic DSLR, the virtues of the smaller sensor will be seen as a benefit - more in focus shots, longer battery life, etc.
Unfortunately it seems to offer nothing for most experienced photographers.
seanathan
09-20-2011, 23:38
A bit off topic, but has anyone else noticed that their promo video's song is blatantly ripping off Sufjan Stevens' song Chicago?
Frank is right. Olympus and nikon went after that market plus the Canon G10 and Panasonic lx5 market with a camera that could do the same but has interchangeable lenses... Someone who wanted more versatility and control but not wanting something as big as m43.
The picture on dpreview of the camera with the pancake lens is smaller than a lx5 and the kit lens on the body looks about same as lx5.
A m43 with kit lens maybe 35% bigger or in that general neighborhood.
Gary
seanathan
09-20-2011, 23:51
Please explain the less DoF. My understanding is the smaller the sensor - combined with a matching lens (format diagonal for normal) gives an increased DoF over a larger format sensor/lens system. So if the sensor is smaller than 4/3 or other, wouldn't it produce a greater DoF for any larger lens/sensor model? Maybe I'm missing something?
I think you're mixed up. The larger the sensor, the more DOF you'll get.
Edit: nevermind, now I'm mixed up. Larger sensor = less DOF. I think the point the OP was making is that you don't have the choice of a shallow depth of field with the 1's little sensor.
Tiny sensor, made worse with slow lenses. Sure, PDAF is nice, but this is a near-compact, and wide DoF makes that near irrelevant. Who are they expecting to sell it to? People who demand quality in a compact package are unlikely to be fooled, and those who are not discriminating are probably happy with their existing craptastic point and shoots.
Frank is right. Olympus and nikon went after that market plus the Canon G10 and Panasonic lx5 market with a camera that could do the same but has interchangeable lenses... Someone who wanted more versatility and control but not wanting something as big as m43.
The picture on dpreview of the camera with the pancake lens is smaller than a lx5 and the kit lens on the body looks about same as lx5.
A m43 with kit lens maybe 35% bigger or in that general neighborhood.
Gary
I'm a skeptical hippo about it being 35% smaller than m4/3... Look at these two dpreview pictures 'in the hand'
nikon 1 (http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/1109/nikon/Inhand/DSC_0092.jpg)
e-pl3 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusepl3/images/InhandRr.jpg)
Not to mention the Nikons kit zoom seems to be a lot larger than the new Panasonic 'X' kit zoom - which is literally a pancake:
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/sized/images/uploads/panasonic_14_42mm_x-506x400.jpg
Interesting that their superzoom is a "power zoom" a la Panasonic X and the kit zoom is collapsible just like the Olympus kit zoom. I don't think the image quality hit compared to m43 would be worth it for me, but it's always good to have more options on the Size vs Quality spectrum. It should compare favorably to a GRD IV or an S100. I just wish Nikon had surprised everyone and joined the m43 group.
One problem is that a camera body can only get so small while still having a 3 inch screen and room for some controls.
I imagine this could be a lot of fun for videographers with plenty of c-mount lenses.
tom.w.bn
09-21-2011, 00:35
Please explain the less DoF. My understanding is the smaller the sensor - combined with a matching lens (format diagonal for normal) gives an increased DoF over a larger format sensor/lens system. So if the sensor is smaller than 4/3 or other, wouldn't it produce a greater DoF for any larger lens/sensor model? Maybe I'm missing something?
He was talking about less DoF control, not less DoF. With a large sensor you have most DoF control because you can chose whether you want shallow or large DoF.
gilpen123
09-21-2011, 00:40
Somewhat disappointed with this.
a half-hearted attempt to join the mirrorless fray. Nikon's too afraid to lose their amateur DSLR market.
wonder if "this is it from Nikon". they could bring larger sensor and more enthusiast oriented alternative in few years. take advantage of their venerable F-mount lenses.
discontinue D3100/5100 and replace it with NEX7 type of camera ?
wonder if "this is it from Nikon". they could bring larger sensor and more enthusiast oriented alternative in few years. take advantage of their venerable F-mount lenses.
discontinue D3100/5100 and replace it with NEX7 type of camera ?
I don't think so, it'd be again a completely different camera. This is it from Nikon. The only way forward will be more megapixels.
a half-hearted attempt to join the mirrorless fray. Nikon's too afraid to lose their amateur DSLR market.
Yeah I agree, I just hope canon doesn't do the same - being the last big company to join the mirrorless market (when they finally do) they could potentially blow it away...
Nice to see them build in an EVF, still amazes me how many "prosumer" cameras don't have this. Looks interesting, but the crop is probably a step too far.
nighstar
09-21-2011, 01:19
meh.
the only thing that particularly interests me about this camera is its supposedly crazy-fast autofocus. i am quite happy with my Olympus E-P2 apart from its autofocus....
When the Pentax Q was presented I thought: Nice reference to the Pentax Auto 110 (http://www.submin.com/110/collection/pentax110/index.htm). But this Nikon 1 know... Is it a citation of something other? Hmm... I don't get what Nikon wants to represent with that model.
wonder if "this is it from Nikon". they could bring larger sensor and more enthusiast oriented alternative in few years. take advantage of their venerable F-mount lenses.
My guess is that the successful companies will develop lenses for these smaller platforms and not rely primarily on funky big adapters and larger, heavier, lenses developed originally for larger, heavier cameras. Those that try to protect DSLR sales from the CEVIL onslaught are likely to be losers in time.
If you took every single DSLR buyer that falls into the typical "family shooter" variety and automatically considered them a CEVIL class camera natural fit (and most would be), surely that's a big enough market to justify built-to-fit lenses at various price and quality points including the high end?
A Nikon V1 or NEX-7 doesn't appeal to me much if the only way I can get decent glass (I like fast primes myself) from the maker is via their DSLR targeted lense line up and an adaptor. That said I'm not opposed to using legacy manual focus glass at all of the focus aids work really well. Anyway... the V1 doesn't do it for me, I won't go to a smaller sensor than the APS-C.
What I did find intriguing is how much video is playing a role in this camera (and the NEX 7 too). The darn thing can shoot 60fps.
With 60fps still images engaged I also envision a "bracket all" function arriving in firmware 1.01 that includes bracket EV, bracket aperture, bracket for HDR, bracket film emulation, bracket "facial expression", bracket "fingers behind kids head mode", bracket alternating pixels, bracket bored expression - all in one second with one press of the shutter release.
I've always disliked Nikon point and shoots and this is just another dull camera from a company that makes such good DSLR's. :confused:
Canon will be having a bit of a sn!gger at this I suspect!
I've always disliked Nikon point and shoots and this is just another dull camera from a company that makes such good DSLR's. :confused:
Canon will be having a bit of a sn!gger at this I suspect!
Yep, at least I hope they're laughing (not thinking - hey that's a good idea!)
Let us all take hands and pray for a digital QL17..
Pickett Wilson
09-21-2011, 02:13
Boring. Do we really need still another digital camera with still another sensor size?
All the target audience needs to take fuzzy photos of their drunk friends by the pool is the camera in their cell phone. And if it doesn't automatically upload every frame to Flickr, Facebook and Tumblr, then it's gonna be DOA.
Well, this certainly is not going to be the kick-off for the expected pro EVIL system from Nikon. And I doubt that it will succeed. Nikon only know one trick, developing a pro system and marketing its reputation in scaled-down consumer devices - and this one seems to be a bit too scaled down to benefit from the F respectively D reputation, and is quite likely to share the fate of the Nikon Apnea, oops, Pronea.
We'll see. Every maker will eventually have to shift the main system towards EVIL - we're just two display chip generations off the point where EVIL displays will outresolve the human eye/matte screen combination, and anybody refusing to jump the boat at that point will merely lose the convergence with the pro video market and go downhill as the last remaining photo only digital camera maker. But given their past, I predict that Nikon will do a intermediate D generation with hybrid SLR/electronic viewfinder.
Well, this certainly is not going to be the kick-off for the expected pro EVIL system from Nikon.
I don't think it was ever meant to be a pro system - just an incorrect rumor. The closest we've got to a 'pro' compact is maybe the x100, and panasonic/olympus's coming 'pro' models...
I think the comment above that they're protecting their own prosumer DSLR market is dead on. They obviously have a predicted time line for introducing something kick ass and this is not the time.
For a company that gave us a brilliant DSLR like the D700 a couple of years ago this is a pretty wimpy effort ... but I think they have more up their sleeves than just their arms and may surprise us yet! :D
The thing is, even if it matches m4/3 performance completely in sensor IQ, it's still a smaller sensor with less DOF control etc, but without any discernible size advantage...
DOF? This days we talk about Background Blur, done in-camera when camera is set to Portrait mode. Why pay for larger sensor?
should I put ;) here?
Why all this moaning about the crop factor? That 2.7x would turn an 85/1.4 into a.. Yes, that's correct, a 230mm f1.4 equivalent. And that 105/2.8 macro would suddenly have a reach and speed comparable to a 300/2.8. You may not get that über-thin DOF, but it would make a heck of a wildlife/birding platform.
Let us all take hands and pray for a digital QL17..
Do you miss non-metered manual mode? :rolleyes:
Why all this moaning about the crop factor? That 2.7x would turn an 85/1.4 into a.. Yes, that's correct, a 230mm f1.4 equivalent. And that 105/2.8 macro would suddenly have a reach and speed comparable to a 300/2.8. You may not get that über-thin DOF, but it would make a heck of a wildlife/birding platform.
theoritically you are correct. but in practice, lens of such relatively small size w/ that kind of reach would be very difficult to hold steady by hand. i imagine that very little hand movement would already cause a great shake in the camera, which negates the point of having a small gear that can be handheld, let alone the size of such lens.
Why all this moaning about the crop factor? That 2.7x would turn an 85/1.4 into a.. Yes, that's correct, a 230mm f1.4 equivalent. And that 105/2.8 macro would suddenly have a reach and speed comparable to a 300/2.8. You may not get that über-thin DOF, but it would make a heck of a wildlife/birding platform.
Out of something like 10,000 photographs on my hard drive, I think maybe 80 have been taken with a lens over 50mm...
Also, if I specially wanted to use an 85mm f1.4, and achieve the 'look' of an 85mm f1.4, I'd need something like a 33mm f0.8 on this system.
Thus, I moan!
gilpen123
09-21-2011, 04:19
I think Nikon P&S are not really produced by Nikon. Nikon has never been good at digital P&S in contrast with what they can do for DSLRs.
Phantomas
09-21-2011, 04:20
Out of something like 10,000 photographs on my hard drive, I think maybe 80 have been taken with a lens over 50mm...
Thus, I moan!
How did you ever take those 10,000 photographs, without Nikon 1 camera?
theoritically you are correct. but in practice, lens of such relatively small size w/ that kind of reach would be very difficult to hold steady by hand. i imagine that very little hand movement would already cause a great shake in the camera, which negates the point of having a small gear that can be handheld, let alone the size of such lens.
Digiscopers are used to lugging tripods around already.. The big thing here is having only one single piece of good glass in front of the sensor. No matter how good a scope (leica/swarovski), when put in front of a digital P&S lens, the total image suffers.
Why all this moaning about the crop factor? That 2.7x would turn an 85/1.4 into a.. Yes, that's correct, a 230mm f1.4 equivalent. And that 105/2.8 macro would suddenly have a reach and speed comparable to a 300/2.8. You may not get that über-thin DOF, but it would make a heck of a wildlife/birding platform.
If you are talking "equivalents", then you would have to include the DOF in that equation - in which case the 85mm f1.4 would be equivalent (in field of view, and in DOF, in 135mm terms) to a 230mm F4 lens and so on and so forth. If you think other people are "moaning" about the crop factor, how about a sensor which is small enough that no-one can see it. It comprises of one pixel and turns your 85mm lens into the equivalent of a 1,000,000mm lens - how's that for "birding" for ya ?? People aren't just "moaning" they are pointing out legitimate concerns based upon their needs. In my world, this seems fair.
If you think other people are "moaning" about the crop factor, how about a sensor which is small enough that no-one can see it. It comprises of one pixel and turns your 85mm lens into the equivalent of a 1,000,000mm lens - how's that for "birding" for ya ?? People aren't just "moaning" they are pointing out legitimate concerns based upon their needs. In my world, this seems fair.
You mean I can have a hubble telescope of my own? :D
If you think other people are "moaning" about the crop factor, how about a sensor which is small enough that no-one can see it. It comprises of one pixel and turns your 85mm lens into the equivalent of a 1,000,000mm lens - how's that for "birding" for ya ?? People aren't just "moaning" they are pointing out legitimate concerns based upon their needs. In my world, this seems fair.
This is a bit silly isn't it? I'm having a practical application in mind.. The low aperture number allows freezing subject motion with fast shutter speed even in low light, the narrow field of view gives great reach. I'm pretty convinced it outclasses the Nikon-P5100/converter combinations I have used..
Yes - my point was silly to display a point to you (which you still don't seem to have "gotten" though it was articulated reasonably clearly in the words you just quoted) - everybody has different uses, wants and desires. If people wish to express that this camera is not what they want (what you call "moaning"), then you should at least understand that your judgement of these "moaners" is predicated upon your particular use ("birding") of this camera - which others don't share. Let them express their opinion. You can express your own. But if you judge others, do not expect them not to judge you too.
NickTrop
09-21-2011, 04:39
Meh.......
Big in Japan?
Otherwise I don't get it.
Not a bad looking camera IMO. But the price! And the size!
What consumer shopping in this category would buy the Nikon over a M4/3 offering?
Phantomas
09-21-2011, 04:44
Yes - my point was silly to display a point to you (which you still don't seem to have "gotten" though it was articulated reasonably clearly in the words you just quoted) - everybody has different uses, wants and desires. If people wish to express that this camera is not what they want (what you call "moaning"), then you should at least understand that your judgement of these "moaners" is predicated upon your particular use ("birding") of this camera - which others don't share. Let them express their opinion. You can express your own. But if you judge others, do not expect them not to judge you too.
Moaners are moaners because there are products out there that satisfy their needs perfectly. But instead of concentraiting on that they choose to closely observe every single new camera release and then moan about what it is NOT.
Clearly Nikon 1 wasn't designed for your average RFF user. Does every product out there satisfy my personal needs? No. And I'm sure for every wish that I have there are 10 that are exact opposite. Fact is you can't satisfy every single person with a single product and that's why manufacturers choose to target a particular one. Leave what's not for you and move on to what is.
"Weeeeh, weeeh, this baby buggy doesn't have a motor, I can't drive it 100mph on the highway, weeeh, weeeeh....".
Yes - my point was silly to display a point to you (which you still don't seem to have "gotten" though it was articulated reasonably clearly in the words you just quoted) - everybody has different uses, wants and desires. .
No, what you did was ridicule the mere assumption that a crop factor camera can be put to good use. But hey, that's your party.
What I think is (and for your pleasure, I'll phrase it p.c.) "somewhat remarkable", is the knee-jerk reaction about crop factors. A crop factor in itself doesn't mean anything.. if it really did, we'd all be shooting wet plates as large as movie posters..
NickTrop
09-21-2011, 04:58
Mirrorless cameras - on the whole, to me, are for the camera companies. They really don't offer any practical advantage (to me) in size over compact DSLR offerings. - They do look cooler looking though - but like that neat looking sports car body with the underpowered engine, they're all show and no go. They're presumably cheaper to make than their DSLR offerings as they're pretty much pure electronic items, that manufacturers (for now) can earn a higher margin. This is Nikon getting on the band wagon. APS-C is as small as I want to go. Compacts? Another silly category. Love reading those blogs. It has raw! All manual control! - You have no control over DoF and their output all looks the same since they all use tiny sensors. Get the cheapest fully automated compact that fits in your pocket that has an f2.8 widest ap and a usable iso 800, which covers a lot of flashless lighting ground. For me, a used Fuji Finepix F series - 10.11,20,30,31 used and don't spend more than $150 on it, which is all they're worth. Compact entry level DSLR + cheap pocketable compact with reasonably fast lens and usable 800 ISO + Compact digital zoom (were these things really excel). 4/3? Mirrorless? Keep'em. One day, Nikon will make a Konica Auto S3 - sized full frame. Now that will be something. Until then? "meh".
No, what you did was ridicule the mere assumption that a crop factor camera can be put to good use. But hey, that's your party.
What I think is (and for your pleasure, I'll phrase it p.c.) "somewhat remarkable", is the knee-jerk reaction about crop factors. A crop factor in itself doesn't mean anything.. if it really did, we'd all be shooting wet plates as large as movie posters..
I did no such thing nor would I because I don't personally care about crop factor - what I did do was poke fun at you stating people with different beliefs to yours were "moaners" (which is clearly a disparaging term - if anyone is ridiculing anyone it is you), which I chose to do by taking your one-sided argument (FOR crop cameras) to a ridiculous extreme, and also pointed out that your use of "equivalents" was technically incomplete. If that's too much for you to handle, so be it.
Not to mention the Nikons kit zoom seems to be a lot larger than the new Panasonic 'X' kit zoom - which is literally a pancake:
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/sized/images/uploads/panasonic_14_42mm_x-506x400.jpg
I forgot about the the new Panasonic kit lens. it is a lot smaller than the original..
Gary
Mirrorless cameras - on the whole, to me, are for the camera companies. They really don't offer any practical advantage (to me) in size over compact DSLR offerings. - They do look cooler looking though - but like that neat looking sports car body with the underpowered engine, they're all show and no go. They're presumably cheaper to make than their DSLR offerings as they're pretty much pure electronic items, that manufacturers (for now) can earn a higher margin. This is Nikon getting on the band wagon. APS-C is as small as I want to go. Compacts? Another silly category. Love reading those blogs. It has raw! All manual control! - You have no control over DoF and their output all looks the same since they all use tiny sensors. Get the cheapest fully automated compact that fits in your pocket that has an f2.8 widest ap and a usable iso 800, which covers a lot of flashless lighting ground. For me, a used Fuji Finepix F series - 10.11,20,30,31 used and don't spend more than $150 on it, which is all they're worth. Compact entry level DSLR + cheap pocketable compact with reasonably fast lens and usable 800 ISO + Compact digital zoom (were these things really excel). 4/3? Mirrorless? Keep'em. One day, Nikon will make a Konica Auto S3 - sized full frame. Now that will be something. Until then? "meh".
It's going to be a difficult day for you when you can no longer buy a traditional DSLR camera on the low end of the market, and you have to choose between a pro DSLR or a mirrorless...
And that day swiftly approaches!
Harry Caul
09-21-2011, 05:42
Why all this moaning about the crop factor? That 2.7x would turn an 85/1.4 into a.. Yes, that's correct, a 230mm f1.4 equivalent. And that 105/2.8 macro would suddenly have a reach and speed comparable to a 300/2.8. You may not get that über-thin DOF, but it would make a heck of a wildlife/birding platform.
If you are using legacy glass you'd be better off with an Olympus mirrorless. Yes, the effective reach is a bit less (2x cf vs. 2.7x of the Nikon), but they have in-body stabilization which works with every lens... not just the $1700 AF-S 1.4/85 Nikon with integrated focus motors. For a birder on a budget, I don't think it gets better/cheaper than legacy glass on an Olympus mirrorless.
But as others have pointed out, I rarely use long focal lengths. And for the shots I do take, I already find m43 a bit limiting in the DOF control department. I don't really see what core advantage the Nikon has here... The body size is about on par with the m43 and NEX 3/5, the lenses may be smaller than the NEX, but not m43. Heck, Nikon's 2.8/10 pancake is bigger than the faster Panny 2.5/14 (equivalent focal lengths) and has less depth of field control to boot!
Freakscene
09-21-2011, 05:51
I was at the launch and have had one for a week. Much that seems bad can be turned off, much that is good has not been discussed. It's not a camera I thought I wanted or needed, but I'll look into mirrorless system cameras more now.
Marty
Meh... Barf... Meh.... I like the looks, hate the small sensor. If they would have just dropped the current sensors (14mp or 16mp) in it I would have got one over the NEX. As it goes, I'm still getting the Nex-7 or a similarly priced lens for my D7000. I'm so over small sensors :)
Leica0Series
09-21-2011, 06:40
Yeah, I'm told by extremely reliable sources that Nikon engineers call it the "Fast Winogrand Transform"* -- the standard version of that algorithm being too computationally expensive** to implement with current image processing pipelines.
If the Nikon 1 really had a Winogrand mode, it would take 20 pictures in a row and select the best one but wouldn't show it to you for a year.
Breaking news: Some persons use a camera for something else than some other persons.
In other news, my brother needs to use a scalpel for work, while I need to speak languages for work.
My favorite post in this thread! :)
Breaking news: Some persons use a camera for something else than some other persons.
In other news, my brother needs to use a scalpel for work, while I need to speak languages for work.
Breaking news: Some persons use a camera for something else than some other persons.
In other news, my brother needs to use a scalpel for work, while I need to speak languages for work.
My dad couldn't be more of an amateur with a camera and yet he still made great photographs with my 5d when I lent it to him for a trip to Tasmania. And that's the most bare bones DSLR you can buy!
The reason so many of us moan about stuff like this is because it isn't actually easier to use than a basic camera with an auto mode, it ends up being more complex, and taking the control away from the user is a bad thing because no computer program can make critical decisions as well as a human can. There's a million consumer compact digitals out there in the world, and I'm not interested in any of them. There are by comparison VERY few 'prosumer' digital compacts with a built in viewfinder and large sensor (2 in fact - the x100 and nex 7), thus making this an untapped market.
The x100 isn't a beginners point and shoot yet has sold in massive demand - the main shops in melbourne have a 6 week waiting list on it STILL - because it's a sexy functional tool, and people desire it. This nikon seems to me to be a me-too product in an already over saturated consumer market...
willie_901
09-21-2011, 07:04
What were they thinking? With a sensor that small you must have at least 20 MP.
The AF hype amuses me. The DOF will be wide enough to compensate for AF inaccuracy 90% of the time.
I think most most people who previously used compact, fixed-lens digital cameras will just keep using their phone, send the photo to whomever and wherever, and then forget about the photo forever within 24 hours.
NickTrop
09-21-2011, 07:10
It's going to be a difficult day for you when you can no longer buy a traditional DSLR camera on the low end of the market, and you have to choose between a pro DSLR or a mirrorless...
And that day swiftly approaches!
Nah - if that day comes, I'll pick me up one of the bazillion compact APSC DSLRs used from the millions of "Affluenza" inflicted people throughout the world who run out and buy cameras, rarely use them, have them sit on a shelf, then feel inexplicably compelled to purchase the "next big thing" (in this case CEVIL cameras) so they can occupy the shelf space of the camera they just sold to partially fund the next camera they won't use... If I can get a 1969 Yashica GSN with no difficulty, I'll be able to get a compact DSLR in a few years.
digitalintrigue
09-21-2011, 07:19
I wouldn't be surprised if they sell quite a lot of these. The typical RFF member, of course, is not their target market :)
kshapero
09-21-2011, 07:20
Meh.
They look like potentially good cameras, but that crop factor... my money remains on the Sony NEX system.
Nikon has a chance to place a claim in the CEvil market, but I am feeling very cozy right now with my NEX 5N with a CV 35/1.4 SC on it.
digitalintrigue
09-21-2011, 07:22
I am feeling very cozy right now with my NEX 5N
Ditto for me...
f16sunshine
09-21-2011, 07:24
Considering that this forum is populated by Pro, semi-Pro, and advanced enthusiast photographers. The comments that "Nikon lost the plot" so to say with their ugly (uhg..) new system is comparable to Formula one drivers and enthusiasts complaining about the new Ford focus. It's clear this thing is not aimed at the demograph we sit in. MR & MRS Consumer P&S are probably going to love this thing. It has changeable lenses and says NIKON on it. Not Sony, Pany, or Fuji but NIKON. The most storied brand in the US for sure. It's going to sell and that's what matters to Nikon. Not that pros embrace it. My 2c :D
I'd be impressed with the new Nikon if the lenses were size of the old Pentax Auto-110 lenses ... which brings up the question of why can't they be. Autofocus, I suppose, is one main reason; or, if not a reason then an excuse.
All in all, I'm still satisfied with my now 3-years-old Lumix G1, the camera that started the whole mirrorless revolution. It's amazing to think how many things they (Panasonic/Olympus) got right with the m-4/3 format.
~Joe
Robin Harrison
09-21-2011, 07:39
My take (abbreviated):
- Bodies too cute
- Lenses too slow and zoomy
- A system born of a perceived hole in their line-up compared to up-and-coming competitors
My take (blogger's cut):
http://www.cronbi.com/2011/09/21/quick-take-on-the-new-nikon-1-system/
Nikon calls this system “ACIL” – “Advanced Camera [with] Interchangeable Lens”. Controversial. Of all the “IL” systems out there, I would argue this is the least “AC”.
Jack Conrad
09-21-2011, 07:49
Meh...I'm already so bored looking at it I don't even care what the images from this thing look like.
I like the design. Has a refined high-quality look to it.
But it doesn't appear to be any smaller than a GF3. I gather the zoom lenses are but not anything else. Not sure how that's a "win".
Benjamin Marks
09-21-2011, 08:14
The reason so many of us moan is that cameras pitched at us are few and far between. We'd love to be immune to the marketing hype, but part of the ol' brain can't let go of the hope that a FF S2 mirrorless camera with a D3S sensor is just around the bend. Well, it is not, and for a variety of reasons including no market for a $3K camera. I have the same reaction to this that I do to the new mini-Pentax offering: it doesn't really apply to me, any more than 110 or disc cameras did. Oh well. Now where did I put my D3?
Ben
Frank Version Two
09-21-2011, 08:18
...It's amazing to think how many things they (Panasonic/Olympus) got right with the m-4/3 format.
~Joe
Yeah and everything after the G1 wasn't better, they actually downgraded from there. It's a real shame we don't have a Nikon or Canon in m4/3s because that would really boost the format.
shadowfox
09-21-2011, 08:18
Speechless.....
..... (still speechless).
Nikon, what were you smoking? just do what you do best, release the D700 successor already! :)
dave lackey
09-21-2011, 08:26
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092120nikonlaunch.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092115nikonlenses.asp
http://www.nikon.com/news/2011/img/pic_110921_11.jpg
Gack! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Is that 10 characters?
scottwallick
09-21-2011, 08:31
I'll be interested to see what lenses Nikon releases. Right now, it's slated just one prime (10mm F2.8, a 27mm in 135 terms). I'll consider the system when there are close 35mm-equivalent and 50mm-equivalent 'fast' (i.e., f/2) prime lenses. A tough sell to me since m43 (and even NEX to an extent) is way ahead of the game in terms of lens options.
Robin Harrison
09-21-2011, 09:02
Nikon, what were you smoking? just do what you do best, release the D700 successor already! :)
Just think of all the R&D time and money that went into this system, and how it could have been used on innovations in their DSLR line? Painful.
keytarjunkie
09-21-2011, 09:15
Considering that this forum is populated by Pro, semi-Pro, and advanced enthusiast photographers. The comments that "Nikon lost the plot" so to say with their ugly (uhg..) new system is comparable to Formula one drivers and enthusiasts complaining about the new Ford focus. It's clear this thing is not aimed at the demograph we sit in. MR & MRS Consumer P&S are probably going to love this thing. It has changeable lenses and says NIKON on it. Not Sony, Pany, or Fuji but NIKON. The most storied brand in the US for sure. It's going to sell and that's what matters to Nikon. Not that pros embrace it. My 2c :D
I didn't know that a Ford Focus costs almost as much as a F1 car :eek:
(cause, ya know, you could swing a Leica with a voigtlander lens for the same price)
While I agree with you that it's not aimed at us...why does it cost this much then? That's really the problem I have with it. Slow lenses, tiny sensor, awkward looking camera, expensive price tag.
Last night I wrote elsewhere 'Higher end "family" camera is my first impression' meaning higher end than the usual point and shoot or phone -- so I'm in agreement with those who have sized these two cameras up as a bid to avoid savaging their own DSLR lines and cash in on the Nikon brand.
Customer visits store, says "I want a camera that takes better photos than my point and shoot or my telephone". Store has plenty to show but there's this not bad looking, small and non-threatening looking, CEVIL format Nikon and it says... Nikon. Looks almost as serious in black as a Nikon SLR (especially the V1).
Sales person says:
"and it says Nikon on the front so you know it's good, plus the sensor inside is WAY bigger than the one in your point and shoot and your phone and by the way you can slap all sorts of Nikon lenses on the front so you can one day use some of those lenses (if you go the adapter route to use them on the N1 series) to a DSLR if you like."
"And it costs less than this Fujifilm over here and you can even shoot decent video and swap lenses, and by the way did I mention it says Nikon on it?"
Maybe the target market is moms buying the family camera at Christmas for dads who said "I want a nikon".
Certainly it will be an improvement for those moving up from cell phones and cheap point and shoot integrated cameras. Will Canon follow suit in like fashion? I tend to think so, and if so, that leaves an interesting opportunity for Sony, maybe Fujifilm too, and possibly Olympus / Panasonic / Samsung.
I was at the launch and have had one for a week. Much that seems bad can be turned off, much that is good has not been discussed. It's not a camera I thought I wanted or needed, but I'll look into mirrorless system cameras more now.
Marty
Swiss launch too these days in Zurich:
http://thebighands.com/
I had the chance to play around for 5 minutes. Neat. Nice. But I suppose I would say the same to a E-P3 or NEX-7. And there I have more chances for the system future, as well mounting M lenses...
Will post a few impression shots later on.
While I agree with you that it's not aimed at us...why does it cost this much then? That's really the problem I have with it. Slow lenses, tiny sensor, awkward looking camera, expensive price tag.
Well, there was a Nikon 35Ti, too. Japan in particular has a big luxury compacts market.
a half-hearted attempt to join the mirrorless fray. Nikon's too afraid to lose their amateur DSLR market.
Intriguingly, there have been a few reports in the financial press that Nikon's shares are being marked down because they don't have an non-mirror camera - Olympus, Panasonic and Sony were reported as having increased their market share significantly.
This product looks like a compromise, launched to satisfy people outside Nikon, not inside.
Harry Caul
09-21-2011, 10:13
The problem with comments proclaiming that "this camera system wasn't designed for us rangefinder folks" is that it doesn't really appear to be designed (well) for P&S users looking for an upgrade either. Ask any P&S or phone user why they want to upgrade and you'll get two answers:
1. Faster focus/feel
2. Professional looking photos (aka shallow DOF)
The Nikon only addresses the first (at least with their current lens line up), while all the other EVIL systems address both. A compact camera/system is preferred by some people I talk to, but it is usually not a requirement (in fact some like the big DSLR "pro" look even though they never use it with anything other than the kit lens). I'm still not sure what this system brings to the table that isn't surpassed in every way by something like the Panny GF3 + X compact zoom + 20/1.7. You can pick up that kit for ~$1000 and it will trounce anything the Nikons can do while being smaller and probably cheaper.
It may not be designed for us, but just because it is says "Nikon" on it and that it will be heavily marketed to P&S/phone users doesn't mean it will actually be a good system for those people either. If Nikon starts putting out tiny lenses in the f1-1.4 range I may revisit my opinion, but a 10mm f2.8 for their first prime??? That is basically a P&S lens -- and almost perfectly matches the 3.85mm f2.8 iphone 4 lens (29mm equiv.).
tritiated
09-21-2011, 10:51
This is so dull. 'Taste' algorithms are making for a boring existence.
wgerrard
09-21-2011, 11:15
My reference points for this "enthusiast" camera thing:
1. Printing is a boutique craft, practiced by a few who have the time and cash to develop the skill to produce a decent print. Most people want to send or post digital images, whether shot with a phone or an M9. Why buy a digital product and avoid what that offers?
2. I'm travelling in Scotland with a small DSLR (Nikon 5100) and three "small" DX lenses. The bag is still too big, too heavy, and too cumbersome. When we travel with a computer in our pocket that also takes pictures, DSLR's really need to offer something that makes the typical consumer think the pictures are worth the inconvenience of carrying the things around. Pretty sure most people think they are not.
3. I think "enthusiast" in this case means someone who knows taking pictures can mean more than pointing and shooting, but doesn't yet know aperture from bokeh.
4.We do not buy digital products expecting to use them the rest of our lives. We do expect to be able to buy better technology every few years. Therefore, attacking these cameras because they aren't built like Leicas is silly and beside the point.
Ronald_H
09-21-2011, 11:23
Nikon has a chance to place a claim in the CEvil market, but I am feeling very cozy right now with my NEX 5N with a CV 35/1.4 SC on it.
U-huh.
My NEX-3 can use my Leica glass, even the Summicron DR. And ALL of my Nikon lenses, from an early 135mm f2.8 non-Ai from 1963 to a recent 'G' lens.
elmer3.5
09-21-2011, 12:01
Hi, don´t get it, why everybody is making small cameras with aps-c sensors but nikon has a not so small body with that tiny sensor!!!
Why someone should prefer nikon 1 over the nex 7?
I´m missing something...
Bill Gerrard is using his noggin effectively. Thoughtful post.
I agree w/your main point, but not w/this. I have an M6 & having handled the Pentax ME Super (& Olympus OMs, etc.), I still wouldn't say the M9 is big, especially if in comparison w/the compact SLRs when they have a comparable lens attached. Also, the M9 is not noticeably heavier, though it is fatter, than an M6 because of the substitution of plastic for brass, & is positively tiny compared to any of the full-frame dsLRs.
*Yes, the M9 is big and, especially, heavy. Compare it to an M6, or even better, to a Pentax ME Super or a Ricoh GR-1. If you're feeling especially cruel, compare the M9 to an NEX-5 or an E-PL3.
Yes, see, e.g., http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-07/canon-clinging-to-mirrors-means-opportunity-for-sony-cameras.html
Intriguingly, there have been a few reports in the financial press that Nikon's shares are being marked down because they don't have an non-mirror camera - Olympus, Panasonic and Sony were reported as having increased their market share significantly.
This product looks like a compromise, launched to satisfy people outside Nikon, not inside.
The Photography Blog has some hands-on and comparison images.
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/nikon_1_v1_hands-on_photos/
Same size as a GF1. Some of the lenses look huge.
Weird.
I wonder if the sensor/processing is going to be really good (IE better than 4/3)?
johannielscom
09-21-2011, 12:14
Really can't see the point of interchangeable lenses if the only lenses that can be used are the dedicated Nikkor lenses.
A 2.7x factor takes all the fun out of using any non-dedicated lenses, even vintage Nikkor SLR lenses.
My beloved 58/1.4 would turn into a 157/1.4 lens on this body: it would only use the very center of the lens and DOF on that lens when used wide open would probably be non-existant, so shallow!
My old Sigma 17-35 DX lens that I use on an old D1x would be a 46/2.8 on its widest setting! :bang: Useless!
System is dead in the water from the start, the only people considering to use this will likely be the P&S crowd and changing a lens on a camera most of the time is beyond their capacities and interests anyway :bang:
So no one thinks that lens adapters for non-Nikkors won't me offered by someone? That's highly unlikely IMO
It's not necessarily that they won't be offered but that the 2.7X crop factor will make using other lenses a challenge (unless you only want long focal lengths).
Swiss launch too these days in Zurich:
http://thebighands.com/
:
:
;
Will post a few impression shots later on.
I was impressed of the artistical effort Nikon is investing thru the world. Here you see the big hands holding a J1 model: It was definitly an eye catcher.
Local transportation hub Zurich Stadelhofen:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/8813/thumbs/P1020365-for.jpg (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=167401) http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/8813/thumbs/P1020369-for.jpg (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=167405) http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/8813/thumbs/P1020367-for.jpg (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=167403)
Later in the rush hour very different kind of people had a chat with the engaged presentation staff and did some test shots. From the wondering housewife to the gadget craving banker: The staff had a lot to show with their available cameras.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/8813/thumbs/P1020368-for.jpg (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=167404)
I had the chance to play around with a V1 and mounted N1 10-30 during my chat with the staff. 1st impression using the manual zoom thru the EVF was similar to a CEVIL Panasonic, Olympus or GXR with EVF. Definitly not P&S feeling.
Then we changed for the 10mm pancake (~28mm FoV): Small combo, of course. I told the young man it may be a well constructed nice "toy" but... :rolleyes:
I couldn't resist! After this sentence I pulled out my Hexar RF + CV 28/3.5 from my backpack and he realized promptly that I'm not the potential Nikon 1 owner :angel:
We had both our laugh and fun.
After a few hours of reflecting what I saw and what I read in the web I must admit: to each his own. The camera will find the matching buyer.
So no one thinks that lens adapters for non-Nikkors won't me offered by someone? That's highly unlikely IMO
Well, they won't be much good given the crop factor - it might fit C and auto110 mounts, but given the sensor size, it will not be useful for anything bigger, and given the mount recess, not for anything shorter either, probably not Cs mount, and certainly not D mount.
That must not be bad - but it places the system in a category way off the Nex, somewhere between Pentax Q and M4/3, and as I mentioned, Nikon has been most successful marketing cameras linked to their pro SLRs, and in this case, that link is rather weak. But we'll see - I am convinced that Nikon already has the design for a big sensor (perhaps even pro) EVIL done, to be released if E-mount cameras should have a significant impact on their slice of the DSLR market.
Sevo
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/uploads_news/nikon_v1_hands_on_23.jpg
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/uploads_news/nikon_v1_hands_on_24.jpg
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/uploads_news/nikon_v1_hands_on_29.jpg
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/uploads_news/nikon_v1_hands_on_32.jpg
I have to laugh at this... It's actually larger than comparable m4/3 cameras. Keep in mind to effectively match them up the m4/3 cameras need a clip on EVF, but I don't think it adds enough bulk to make them 'bigger'
Also, from the dpreview interview:
"Gone are the scene and PASM modes familiar to SLR users (although these can still be selected through the menu), replaced by four positions which represent different applications of high speed stills and movie recording. The 'Motion Snapshot' mode combines a slow-motion movie with a simultaneously-recorded still image, while the 'Smart Photo Selector' mode takes 20 full-resolution images from a single shutter-button press (including some captured before the button is fully depressed), then analyses them,saving what it judges to be the best five (even recommending the very best of the bunch). There's just a single position to cover all aspects of conventional stills shooting, plus one more for movies."
:rolleyes:
jsrockit
09-21-2011, 14:39
The average person doesn't know about sensor size... Nikon may still do ok with this.
Link to a real world image with the 10mm f2.8 pancake (28mm equiv) - was taken @ 2.8, iso100
http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/Nikon_1_system_sample_image_1.jpg
Yeah and everything after the G1 wasn't better, they actually downgraded from there. It's a real shame we don't have a Nikon or Canon in m4/3s because that would really boost the format.
The G3 and GH2 are measurably better than the G1 in IQ, and the G3 is much nicer looking (imo)
willie_901
09-21-2011, 14:53
Link to a real world image with the 10mm f2.8 pancake (28mm equiv) - was taken @ 2.8, iso100
http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/Nikon_1_system_sample_image_1.jpg
Now that's depth of field.
Too expensive to catch the P&S crowd, too small a sensor to catch the enthusiast crowd, IQ will not outpace M4/3 or NEX no matter what magic dust Nikon applies, not that much smaller than the small offerings from others... I can't think of one reason to buy this over a Pen or a NEX no matter what type of consumer I was....
antiquark
09-21-2011, 17:19
I for one think the industrial design is SUPER (especially the white one).
Question: say you put a 50/1.4 (equivalent) lens on the thing... how will the depth of field compare with a FF camera?
According to my sketchy calculations, it will have a DOF similar to f/4 on a FF sensor. Which almost isn't that bad.
I for one think the industrial design is SUPER (especially the white one).
That is the one thing I like as well.
Athos
One way to look at the entire sensor size argument is to say that a sensor of the size Nikon's using is already more than good enough for most applications, that sensor performance will continue to increase, and that technical innovations are being applied more rapidly in smaller sensors (all true).
Thus, it may well be that from Nikon's perspective, they are following Wayne Gretzky's admonition: you don't skate to where the puck is. You skate to where it's going to be.
People who think that full-frame is where it's at and will *always* be where it's at remind me of people who thought that Apple* was wrong to ship the iMac without a floppy drive, or the iPhone without a keypad.
Now, all that said, this Nikon system brings absolutely nothing to the table except a new lens mount. And that's both boring and stupid. Boring, because it's boring. Stupid, because it's bad for consumers, and it will in the eyes of many consumers (who are overly obsessed with sensor size) legitimize the relatively larger micro 4/3 sensor, which as of today is no longer "the small-sensor interchangeable lens system." That last bit is what we call an own-goal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhV45iit7m8) by Nikon.
* h/t to John Gruber for his superposition of Apple and Gretzky.
I for one think the industrial design is SUPER (especially the white one).
Overall the camera isn't for me, but I like the design, too.
The best industrial design in the EVIL sector IMHO (I don't care too much for retro nonsense).
antiquark
09-21-2011, 21:11
Also, I am struck by the ingenuity of the simple name "1", and the fact that nobody thought of it before!
Here's a video, via TheOnlinePhotographer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_F10zJwXWo&feature=player_embedded
Also, I am struck by the ingenuity of the simple name "1", and the fact that nobody thought of it before!
Well, Nikon did - here's the Nikon One (http://www.cameraquest.com/NRFOne.htm) of 1948:
http://www.cameraquest.com/jpg6/60952o1.jpg
(link & picture from the bartender's site).
So for Nikon it's a case of "back to the roots".
Not the digital Nikon RF that everybody had been hoping for, but at least the name is back ;)
antiquark
09-21-2011, 21:38
Well, Nikon did - here's the Nikon One (http://www.cameraquest.com/NRFOne.htm) of 1948:
They stole their own idea!
Wonder if the "Nikon 1" will be the same type of milestone that the "Nikon I" was? It has some amazing features, IMHO.
tom.w.bn
09-21-2011, 21:58
The only option for Nikon fanboys in the "enthusiast/special camera" section. So it might sell there.
Although this may not be the camera for me or many of our RFF crowd I think some pretty interesting features are being overlooked or discounted a bit. Smaller sensor, yes, but:
- Active and Passive auto-focus... a big deal.
- Resulting fast auto-focus (with real tracking, unlike m4/3 which is pretty useless in that regard. Trust me, I use it).
- 135 point auto focus (41 as well for area mode).
- Notice the top shutter speed? 1/16,000th (electronic) & 1/4000th (mechanical). My GF1 and G1 can't hang with that electronic speed.
- Up to 60 FPS in High Speed mode, 5 in "regular".
- Focusing down to 1 cm.
- Base ISO of 100.
- Matrix Metering (Nikon's matrix is superb).
- High quality EVF (1.4M) and LCD (921K).
- iTTL compatibility and a cool little SpeedLight.
- PASM capability though located in Menus.
- Raw compatibility.
Some corrections from earlier posts:
- Best Shot Selection is Optional, you don't have to use it with a burst.
- PASM exists, in menus (not ideal obviously for many of us).
Anyway, not trying to be a fanboy at all, as a matter of fact this probably isn't the camera for me. It is, however, a bit more robust than many of the "Big Expensive P&S" type comments littering the thread.
As always, choice is good! For some this is probably a neat solution, for others not. Personally I'm always happy when there's one more variant out there for all of us to review and choose accordingly.
I look forward to seeing real-world IQ and performance when this comes out.
Kent
PS- I'm more interested in one day seeing a Pro style D(x) that will have a pro interface and some of the advantages of an EVF or data overlay type system. One day...
re_visible
09-21-2011, 23:34
This is just wrong.
Here is why:
High ISO seems bad (LX5 bad, see here (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NIKONV1/NIKONV1A.HTM)), the sensor is small, the camera and lenses still as big as the old Pana GF1 System. Lenses are slow. No direct controls (go to the menu to select A/P/S/M modes? Really?!). No standard “hot shoe”.
On the plus side, AF sounds good, it’s fast, it has good video (I guess so).
But in daily use, what does really matter to most of consumers?
It's a Nikon, so there are some people out there to buy it, but not enough to make this a real competition for other C/EVIL cameras.
Now, it is only Canon left to screw it up, and leave the market to Panasonic, Olympus and Sony. And that’s good news for me and many of other RFF people.
tom.w.bn
09-22-2011, 00:30
I don't like or want a touch screen menu. I don't know of any pro cameras using touch, maybe there are some?
Phase One Digital Backs (IQ Series) have touch control for menus and zooming.
Now, it is only Canon left to screw it up, and leave the market to Panasonic, Olympus and Sony. And that’s good news for me and many of other RFF people.
Why is it good news for you (let's ignore other RFF people for the time being) if Canon screws it up? I'm genuinely curious.
Phantomas
09-22-2011, 01:01
Blabla, you're all too late to the party. Mirrorless -shmirorless, so last Tuesday. REAL photographers from MAGNUM have moved on to Nintendo 3DS. Woohaha!
Martin Parr and 3DS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvfXJHVZ3WE).
Why is it good news for you (let's ignore other RFF people for the time being) if Canon screws it up? I'm genuinely curious.I think these newer cameras are trying to do their best to save the small consumer digital market from a take over by cell phone cameras. Some of the newer cell cameras perform as well or better than the small digital cams of a year or so ago. I think it's about staking out a new (multi-lens, EVF) market. It's in the interest of all the camera makers to defend this turf. Apple and Android are moving into this market as their camera phones get better.
People will use what suits their needs best. No matter if the cat is black or white, if it catches mice it's a good cat. Nikon is trying to develop their business and that's all. I don't subscribe to the epic battle of the cameras against the cellphones. If at some point cellphones are good enough to replace a camera for me, then good riddance to the camera.
However, what I don't see is what that has to do with the question, which was why re_visible (and supposedly many other RFFers) will be happy if camera maker X "screws it up".
re_visible
09-22-2011, 01:05
I was just being mean, but there is a real chance there, if Canon doesn't take the NEX line serious and goes the Nikon way.
There is no way Canon will step into the m4/3 market, because they are "too big" to do that (in their own mind), and coming out with an APS-C mirrorless would harm their entry DSLR market (where most of their profits come from).
So the most probable way will be an own format/mount combination, prosumer and entry level cameras.
And all that years after Oly/Pan, Sony and Samsung have presented some really nice systems and have gathered experience.
So if it is not REALLY revolutionary, it will fail.
Why is this good?
Well, I think the really big companies can only learn from really big failures.They just have to screw it up, before they get serious about things.
I would hate to see any of the camera companies go away. I still miss Minolta's meter products. I used them over many years and still have a Minolta meter.
These still exist, Kenko got hold of the meters division.
So the most probable way will be an own format/mount combination, prosumer and entry level cameras.
They certainly won't be betting all their consumer DSLR sales on the EVIL horse right now, when the former still dominate and EVIL sales outside Japan are very limited. But I have no doubt that Nikon and Canon already have a plan B shelved, and will eventually roll up the EVIL market from the professional end.
I agree with Frank here. The sensor may be a little better, but the camera operation went to consumer level. Most folks that are comfortable with a SLR/ DSLR will find the non-touch screen interface friendly. I think it's why they are popular as used cameras. I don't like or want a touch screen menu. I don't know of any pro cameras using touch, maybe there are some? In bright light, it's difficult to see even the best LCD. Many pros and advanced users don't chimp, once a digital cam is set up. But then you need an optical VF. If you chimp in bright light with an active subject, you will miss a lot of pictures. Look at the sports guys who have several Cams + different FL lenses set on tripods. They can't chimp - they can't even look into the cameras, excepting the primary.
The G3 isn't really a different interface than the G1, it's smaller, neater and has a touchscreen added, and has a better EVF. The touchscreen is just an addition - you don't have to use it, and no functions rely on it.
Considering the g1 struggles to shoot over iso400 without pretty horrid noise, and the G3 can shoot iso2500+ cleanly with more megapixels chucked in, I'm still voting it as a pretty large upgrade.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092210nikonj1samplesgallery.asp
Samples at dpreview. IQ looks pretty rubbish IMO... Definitely a step down from m4/3
I think that, in one fell swoop, Nikon has given the 4/3 format new credibility.
They're trying to protect their SLR market, but haven't thought this through. By suggesting this one inch sensor gives acceptable image quality, they're in effect saying that 4/3 is in a premium category.
They had the choice of taking a slice of their own market with their new launch - or letting the competition take that slice. They've opted for the latter. It's a classic strategic mistake. I like Nikon, and I'm sorry they've done it.
Brian Sweeney
09-22-2011, 03:35
Wow- the sensor size is almost identical to the KAF-1600 used in the Kodak DCS-200.
"empower users with new ways to tell stories through photography, driven by imaginative next-generation technology."
I am going to puke.
I think that, in one fell swoop, Nikon has given the 4/3 format new credibility.
They're trying to protect their SLR market, but haven't thought this through. By suggesting this one inch sensor gives acceptable image quality, they're in effect saying that 4/3 is in a premium category.
They had the choice of taking a slice of their own market with their new launch - or letting the competition take that slice. They've opted for the latter. It's a classic strategic mistake. I like Nikon, and I'm sorry they've done it.
I agree 100%. If they had gone a slight big bigger than m4/3 or even to aps-c like the nex, m4/3 would have been the odd one out - the one with the 'sub-par IQ', but instead they've now really made m4/3 seem good.
M4/3 seems to be the 'goldilocks' sensor size of these mirrorless cameras - not too big a sensor to have big lenses like the NEX, not to small so that it's perceived as a toy like the nikon1.
jsrockit
09-22-2011, 04:54
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for serious photographers.
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for serious photographers.
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for them.
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for serious photographers.
I try never to laugh at my photos or smile when shooting for that matter ... does that make me a serious photographer? :D
I try never to laugh at my photos or smile when shooting for that matter ... does that make me a serious photographer? :D
This is a serious photographer:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2425507303_5176fe9729_z_d.jpg
(by Garry Knight (http://www.flickr.com/photos/garryknight/2425507303/))
No Nikon 1 anywhere in sight, case solved, QED.
This is a serious photographer
Looks like a photographer in pain if you ask me. Neck and back strain at least. ;)
Back to the topic at hand, someone over on photo.net has posted observations after handling one (http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00ZMrn). Of interest to me were points 2 and 4:
2) Controls and menus are quite a mess. Aperture/shutter priority, manual mode as well as ISO - everything is in the menu, which is too simplistic and not sophisticated. No customization to speak of (custom menus etc.) At least the V1 would deserve better controls.
4) The cameras are slow. Like, really slow. It takes ages to switch between the display and EVF.
For the consumer moving up from a P&S that wants more control (or doesn't know they want it but needs it to make certain types of shots) it seems counter productive to make it hard to do such things.
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for serious photographers.
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for them.
LOL, stop enabling camera companies to keep making crappy cameras. If you put my 5d in P mode, any one on earth can use it and take good photos. You don't need to completely strip a camera of all control and have features like taking 20 shots in rapid succession and having the camera pick the best one based off some algorithm that probably doesn't work 90% of the time, just so that people who aren't 'serious photographers' can take a photo with it...
What ever happened to the good old auto mode? At which point did simply pressing a button to take a picture need to be dumbed down further?
It's not good for serious photographers, it's not good for soccer moms, it's just a rubbish idea!
kshapero
09-22-2011, 05:42
This is a serious photographer:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2425507303_5176fe9729_z_d.jpg
(by Garry Knight (http://www.flickr.com/photos/garryknight/2425507303/))
No Nikon 1 anywhere in sight, case solved, QED.Once the "1" ships, he may wear it as an ear ring.
And I might add that it's not just this forum that's having a knee-jerk reaction - every single photography forum I've checked has threads with guys and girls scorning this system in the same manner...
I think too many people are assuming that this camera was made for serious photographers.
really? we are discussing this camera in the context of Micro fourthirds, which have sold really well. I haven't heard any suggestions they're all being bought by "serious" photographers trading down.
Nikon have elected to fill a niche that's very close to existing compact cameras. But they've done so at a pricepoint that's very close to 4/3 and APS-C cameras. And remember, people who buy expensive compacts like the G10, do indeed tend to be "serious" photoraphers.
In short, the price of the Nikon1 is indisputably "serious" !
Once the "1" ships, he may wear it as an ear ring.
That was truly funny. Thank you. Had an instant image of it dangling from his ear and his head tilted to the side. :D
Did I read that this thing is $900.00?
If so thats close to 75% of the price of the X100 ... if that doesn't make you gag nothing will! :D
In short, the price of the Nikon1 is indisputably "serious" !
It's not just the price I think.
The Online Photographer linked to a Nikon promo video that gives a better idea of what, I gather, Nikon is aiming for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_F10zJwXWo
Watching the video I realized the camera (to my mind) is an odd mix of the really advanced and the really simple. And that includes the design which I deem nice, minimal and high-end looking (with an EVF even), but yet doesn't have the direct control options one would expect.
So it's the "smart camera for stupid people". Which is why the reaction on the webz is so negative. The camera sort of sucks you in a bit and then leaves you with disdain. The speed is incredible, for example, but then you realize you probably won't be able to "control" it.
Apparently, you don't even have to turn it on.
Totally shameless!
A bit off topic, but has anyone else noticed that their promo video's song is blatantly ripping off Sufjan Stevens' song Chicago?
Soccer moms and dads (guilty, but I'm not the target market) will love it. It'll be dubbed the "never miss a shot camera".
Their photos will still largely be boring but at least they'll get the moment the foot connects with the ball, finally.
jsrockit
09-22-2011, 07:00
really? we are discussing this camera in the context of Micro fourthirds, which have sold really well. I haven't heard any suggestions they're all being bought by "serious" photographers trading down.
Nikon have elected to fill a niche that's very close to existing compact cameras. But they've done so at a pricepoint that's very close to 4/3 and APS-C cameras. And remember, people who buy expensive compacts like the G10, do indeed tend to be "serious" photoraphers.
In short, the price of the Nikon1 is indisputably "serious" !
I guess my point is that the average consumer doesn't know anything about sensor size and that might just be in Nikon's favor here. It seems to be for those nikon users which like the P series but want something that offers a little more. Remember, most people who buy cameras do not geek out on forums and memorize sensor sizes...
It's not good for serious photographers, it's not good for soccer moms, it's just a rubbish idea!
Gavin, photographers like you and me and many others on this forum are obsessed with process, method, technique, and equipment.
Most people are not. They just want good pictures with as little fuss as possible. This camera will deliver those pictures, and reasonable-quality video as well. It's not made for you.
Soccer moms and dads (guilty, but I'm not the target market) will love it. It'll be dubbed the "never miss a shot camera".
Their photos will still largely be boring but at least they'll get the moment the foot connects with the ball, finally.
Exactamundo.
Once the "1" ships, he may wear it as an ear ring.
Does the 1 have a "scowling photojournalist" mode?
tom.w.bn
09-22-2011, 07:39
Soccer moms and dads (guilty, but I'm not the target market) will love it. It'll be dubbed the "never miss a shot camera".
Their photos will still largely be boring but at least they'll get the moment the foot connects with the ball, finally.
Soccer moms take the real important photos that matter and I'm absolutely serious here. And look at this for another opinion about photos that matter http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110757
I guess my point is that the average consumer doesn't know anything about sensor size and that might just be in Nikon's favor here. It seems to be for those nikon users which like the P series but want something that offers a little more.
A fair observation - but remember, this is an expensive item, for people who don't know anything about cameras. Shelling out getting on for a grand is a great incentive to finding out more about the thing you're buying!
Juan Valdenebro
09-22-2011, 07:56
From the video linked on page 1 by Gavin, I see it as a totally new and ultra advanced whole system designed for new hobbyists wanting to step up from the common compact cameras, and it might have some real success... For those new digital shooters for sure it looks like there's nothing close to it... That's the message I read there: nothing like this. It's the hottest thing for those who don't want to be in control but want to get the best results trusting technology, and that's most of the world wanting to spend a bit more... A wise move IMO for that pricey market: coming out these days, it almost says "a great Christmas gift"...
Cheers,
Juan
Soccer moms take the real important photos that matter and I'm absolutely serious here. And look at this for another opinion about photos that matter http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110757
Sure they do; my wife certainly does. Without her, I'd probably never be in a photo anyway... the invisible husband!
To your point, it's the soccer moms of the world (or dads as the case may be) who take the "boring" shots - groups, families, minor events that get remembered later much more fondly - that often matter most, while their photographic spouses are off making "art" along with occasional portraits.
In my prior post I was being facetious in any case. I do see a market for this camera. It isn't me and probably isn't many here. But it is very likely a good camera for my wife. The thing is... there are a great many good cameras that would fit my wife today and I have to believe her needs are going to be very similar to most other soccer moms and dads who don't fancy themselves as artists but want good images of their kids and friends and activities.
I'd like to think my X100 is also a good choice - put it in Program mode / Auto ISO with a decently fast floor shutter speed and sure as shootin', she'd get decent shots most of the time with that. Unfortunately you need an experienced photographer in the family to size up the requirements and pre-set the camera, but once set, the X100 would do a very good job indeed.
There is a trail of cameras following my wife around, most of which are still here and functioning perfectly. I think I was most successful when I bought her a Leica Minilux, but that was late in the film game, sadly. Terrible viewfinder but all she had to do was press the shutter release and move on. Good image quality. For enough years to make me not totally regret buying it, a very happy wife was the end result.
Next as a runner up would be a Canon p&s digital would be runner up. It was not bad but no where near the quality of the Leica output in those days. Got used a lot though because it was convenient, and high IQ and high res photos are not needed when she was snapping kids at school for the grade school yearbook. Not the tool I would have used but I was busy elsewhere in those days.
I utterly failed in providing her access to my Contax film cameras, or the dumbed down but still nice Nikon with AF which she killed when the camera swung forward from the strap around her neck into a student desk. Oops.
A 4/3s Olympus followed for her. Never really caught on with her big time but she did use it faithfully, probably due to the zoom. I still think her Minilux snaps were superior in quality and content though.
Now more often than not she uses her phone, or I get called to the school do use whatever tool I want, "just get me images of X, Y and Z."
I don't think my wife really needs a 60 FPS auto-pick-the-best shot camera, but maybe I'm wrong... maybe it is exactly the sort of camera an unskilled shooter (she never will be truly skilled but does take lots of photos at school and is improving) really needs. Talking about depth of field and blurring backgrounds largely gets forgotten year to year, if it ever was absorbed. For me those are critical creative tools, for her, learning about them gets in the way. She'd rather the shots be in focus more often than not and how much is in focus is fairly irrelevant to her.
But could a V1 or J1 slipped in her purse fill the bill and deliver images she'd approve of? Probably. Ok, no doubt. But then so could a bunch of other digital higher end p&s or better cameras, and likely at better price points. Somehow I don't think that Nikon will create a tidal wave of demand that obliterates all those other potentially good options.
Interesting to contrast the "one"s reception with the launch of the Nex-7.
I can't remember a new system being so widely trashed at launch----ever.
Nikon: get real and get to work. The "other one" is eating your lunch, girls.
Imagine the reception of a genuine M9 alternative: FF, microlenses, short register and SMALL.
That will be "the one"--and untill it exists, the closest to those ideals will be the one.
At the moment there is no contest: the Nex 7 is the one, and this fancy P&S is the "UN".
Did I read that this thing is $900.00?
If so thats close to 75% of the price of the X100 ... if that doesn't make you gag nothing will! :D
Check the B&H page, with the kits its over a grand! Only a single kit comes in under $1000... I'm seriously wondering how they are suppost to sell these over a NEX-5n??? I love Nikons, I really do, I couldn't talk myself into buying one of these for myself or my wife....
Athos
cosmonaut
09-22-2011, 14:52
I always reserve comment until is see first hand IQ and read hands on reviews. The Olympus E5 was the big let down when it was announced but once it got into the hands of the masses everyone begin to see it really was a nice upgrade. Olympus sells were better than expected. Remember the first three letters in assume.
I do think you're onto something here. If they're smart, that's really how they'll market it and I can even imagine that there are people out there that are looking precisely for the "never miss a shot camera". The big, big question is whether or not these people are willing to pay $900 for this camera (or any camera)...
Soccer moms and dads (guilty, but I'm not the target market) will love it. It'll be dubbed the "never miss a shot camera".
Their photos will still largely be boring but at least they'll get the moment the foot connects with the ball, finally.
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/09/micro-43-is-the-big-kahuna.html
Seems like it's not just RFF that's disappointed... :p
Juan Valdenebro
09-23-2011, 06:04
How can RFF members feel disappointed when Nikon never thought of us as the main target?
We already have options for all we like and want...
Cheers,
Juan
How can RFF members feel disappointed when Nikon never thought of us as the main target?
We already have options for all we like and want...
Cheers,
Juan
Because:
1. You guys are going on about the main target being p&s consumers - hello!!! $1000 price for a camera + kit lens? That's not consumer pricing - that's more than NEX and m4/3 pricing, and puts it square in enthusiast territory. I could buy 2 m4/3 cameras for the price of 1 nikon.
2. literally 90% of the camera market is made up of cameras that are designed clueless amateurs. 8% of the rest are cameras that are aimed at both amateurs and advanced users. The remaining 2%, like the x100 and the m9 are aimed only at advanced users. Big sensor, in built VF and interchangeable lenses are hallmarks of advanced user features - not point and shoot features.
You can go on on and about how it's not intended for us, but in the end your mouth says 'no no', but the price and main features say 'yes yes'.
Phantomas
09-23-2011, 06:17
I'm not dissapointed at all. I'll play around with this camera and keep it in the pocket for when I'm not out doing "serious" shooting.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6171/6174801169_d9ed0118ba_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/phantomas/6174801169/)
Phantomas - any impressions to speak of?
Juan Valdenebro
09-23-2011, 06:26
Hi Gavin,
There are hobbyists wanting that camera for that price IMO... Price makes people think things... :) Let's wait and see if it's a disaster for Nikon...
The X1 by Leica is $2000 and you can't use different lenses on it... It has a bigger APS-C sensor, but MOST people in the world don't care... That's what Nikon is right about.
Obviously I won't use that camera.
Cheers,
Juan
I bought my wife a Canon P&S last fall to replace her old Sony.
The Nikon 1 J1 would be a perfect camera for her.
She doesn't want to know anything about a camera – I mean anything. How to change anything set anything alter anything what f-stop what ISO...ANYTHING.
But she's dismayed when she doesn't get the shot or gets a blurry mess.
I see what Nikon is doing here. I think it's actually really smart.
Juan Valdenebro
09-23-2011, 06:36
I bought my wife a Canon P&S last fall to replace her old Sony.
The Nikon 1 J1 would be a perfect camera for her.
She doesn't want to know anything about a camera – I mean anything. How to change anything set anything alter anything what f-stop what ISO...ANYTHING.
But she's dismayed when she doesn't get the shot or gets a blurry mess.
I see what Nikon is doing here. I think it's actually really smart.
Of course!
The move had to be like that: not making an X100 that's better to us, but making one that's better to the masses!
Cheers,
Juan
Phantomas
09-23-2011, 06:38
Impressions? Yeah - fastest camera I've yet tried, in all classes. I first thought AF didn't work because it was already focused before I even pressed the button. That blog entry about it being slow and menus confusing - I call bullsh!t. Yes, there are no external controlls, but the menu is very clean and simple. And I don't know where they came with that "slow" comment, must have had a broken camera, because like I said, mine's one of the fastest cameras I've tried (and I've tried them all). It can also be virtually silent, since you can choose electronic or mechanical shutter.
I've played with V1 as well, but decided to take J1 to the streets because I don't really need an EVF on this particular cam and prefer the compact model.
High ISO is very usable (the SP above is at 3200).
But again, what impressions do you want? It is NOT a camera for us RFF types, so no, I won't be doing anything serious with it. As a P&S it's fantastic.
I'd somewhat agree that the only negative thing about this camera (considering the INTENDED USE) is the current price, but those are all MSRPs, I haven't seen MSRP remain for long after launch, so the prices will come down quickly.
And by the way, whoever said "smart camera for stupid people"? Genious! That's exactly what it is!
Juan Valdenebro
09-23-2011, 07:09
The flat 27mm equivalent lens is the one that makes me curious... With the small sensor, DOF must be omnipresent and ideal for students' digital street shooting... If someone has the camera with that 10mm lens, I'd like to see some sample pictures... Perhaps prints come out with enough quality... Thanks!
Cheers,
Juan
Leica0Series
09-23-2011, 07:13
I can see that "short movie plus still images" as being a godsend for web journalism. Perfect for perp walks and highlighting great soccer kicks, etc. There was a bit a while back on the NYT blog about a photographer who needed to shoot both stills and video, so he kludged one 5D Mk II atop another. He could have used this instead, a much more elegant solution.
I predict that in a few months we'll be seeing tons of those little motion clips on the web. They'll be as ubiquitous as moving photographs in the Harry Potter movies.
Phantomas
09-23-2011, 07:24
I can see that "short movie plus still images" as being a godsend for web journalism.
It's called "Motion Snapshot" and it's not very useful for the purpose you've envisioned. It's just a 2 second sloooow motion movie (1 sec of before the actual image and 1 sec after) with generic music. The best way to describe it is something that you'd see in a picture frame in the Harry Potter movie.
edit: however, you can very easily capture stills during movie recording, no problem. I think that's what you mean.
Juan - the 10mm lens is decent. That mirror shot is taken with it, obviously. That's the only lens I use (hello-o, primes only!) with this camera. I might post samples, but I'm not too big on feeding internet crowd negativity. I once had a pre-production unit of Nikon's 50mm f/1.8, and posted some shots before it went on sale. Trafic to my Flickr has exploded and DPreviewers and Ken Rockwells of this world were scrutinising every damn pixel. Not a pleasant experiece. I'm not a tester, so I'll leave sample shots for others to do :angel:
Dr Gaspar
09-23-2011, 07:51
I think that for the same price, you can get a better camera for the same purposes.
But hey, that's just me.
shadowfox
09-23-2011, 08:17
Because:
1. You guys are going on about the main target being p&s consumers - hello!!! $1000 price for a camera + kit lens? That's not consumer pricing - that's more than NEX and m4/3 pricing, and puts it square in enthusiast territory. I could buy 2 m4/3 cameras for the price of 1 nikon.
2. literally 90% of the camera market is made up of cameras that are designed clueless amateurs. 8% of the rest are cameras that are aimed at both amateurs and advanced users. The remaining 2%, like the x100 and the m9 are aimed only at advanced users. Big sensor, in built VF and interchangeable lenses are hallmarks of advanced user features - not point and shoot features.
You can go on on and about how it's not intended for us, but in the end your mouth says 'no no', but the price and main features say 'yes yes'.
Totally agree with your assessment (it's rare that I disagree with you anyways :) )
But we may witness a new in-between market:
I think Nikon is
a) banking on their name recognition ("it's Nai-kon, it has to be good, right?") :rolleyes: , and
b) catering to the "might as well" market, these are non-camera geek people who has $1K to spend and have access to one or more camera geek friends for advice, so they know just enough comparatively about lens size, sensors, etc.
I see plenty of "family" camera users lugging around a DSLR. They can't all be happy campers. For "family" camera buyers, the most important complaint about DSLRs is either complexity, or perhaps more importantly size, for the camera that is too big to lug around is the camera that isn't there when you need it.
So where does the up-market family camera buyer turn to? A P&S? That might resolve the complexity and size complaints, but many simple P&S boxes are problematic in another area: responsiveness - and those users are forever missing *the* shot.
Image quality is likely way down the list of complaints "family" camera buyers have, if quality is even on their radar at all.
So Nikon developed a unit that is apparently plenty fast and by taking multiple shots removes the need for the occasional camera user to bother develop timing skills. It is small and hides complexity. It even does video. It hits the important tick boxes for an up market family camera buyer - small (always with you), fast, and simple to use (in theory). And the quality is even a leg up from P&S cameras.
Is 500 or 1000 dollars too much? Maybe. But some of these folks might have spent 500 - 1000 bucks on a DSLR a few years ago and have found they aren't using it nearly as much as they want to, perhaps for some of the reasons I've noted.
Nikon's "never miss a shot" camera (V1, J1) might just be a big hit among up-market small "family" camera buyers.
Phantomas
09-23-2011, 08:41
I just bought my sister a D5100 because she just had her first baby so it's a present to make decent quality images, even if she has no photography skills, her IXUS shots suck.
I swear, if Nikon 1 was on sale that'd be the one I'd be getting for her. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to give her mine.
Juan Valdenebro
09-23-2011, 11:28
Juan - the 10mm lens is decent. That mirror shot is taken with it, obviously. That's the only lens I use (hello-o, primes only!) with this camera. I might post samples, but I'm not too big on feeding internet crowd negativity. I once had a pre-production unit of Nikon's 50mm f/1.8, and posted some shots before it went on sale. Trafic to my Flickr has exploded and DPreviewers and Ken Rockwells of this world were scrutinising every damn pixel. Not a pleasant experiece. I'm not a tester, so I'll leave sample shots for others to do :angel:
:D
Hey, thanks for that info!
For that really small size of your camera+lens, I think I'd enjoy them for street photography any no-film day, or for relatives wanting to discover the joys of no-settings street shooting... Having no focusing problems is a real joy... Maybe in some time we could see some samples or any shot of yours you like... I wouldn't be surprised if the quality is enough for a good cover (full page size) print...
Cheers,
Juan
The nikon project leader for these cameras is claiming image quality on par with their dslrs. I'm on my phone and can't link. But it's linked off of the online photographer's site.
The nikon project leader for these cameras is claiming image quality on par with their dslrs. I'm on my phone and can't link. But it's linked off of the online photographer's site.
I saw that. Can't imagine what DSLR he's referring to. The D40?
I think it's a fun system/camera to shoot anything moving, like the cat playing etc ... with the snazzy functions like motion snap whatever.
Way to pricey for a gadget.
Will have to wait couple of more years for that digital Contax G type of camera.
I saw that. Can't imagine what DSLR he's referring to. The D40?
The D40 has terrific image quality, and is capable of delivering absolutely beautiful prints up to 11 x 16 or larger. Does the average family photographer require more? And do you think that you'd do much better on a technical level with a 35 Summilux ASPH FLE, and M7,...and Tri-X?
The D40 has terrific image quality, and is capable of delivering absolutely beautiful prints up to 11 x 16 or larger. Does the average family photographer require more? And do you think that you'd do much better on a technical level with a 35 Summilux ASPH FLE, and M7,...and Tri-X?
I think my post was one of those comments that just doesn't work in a forum context. Know what I mean?
What I was getting at was that, from the samples I've seen, the V1 is certainly not producing image quality equal to even Nikon's current lowest-rung DSLR. So I did a quick search to find the model name of an older Nikon DSLR (as I don't know them at all) and tried to make a bit of a camera marketing joke.
And do you think that you'd do much better on a technical level with a 35 Summilux ASPH FLE, and M7,...and Tri-X?
Was that really necessary? :rolleyes:
jpfisher
09-28-2011, 05:04
Just posted my review of the J1 -- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2393556,00.asp
After a week with the camera, I have to say that I like it... but I would never by it for myself. No manual focus rings on the lenses and the extreme crop factor make using older glass via a theoretical adapter a tricky proposition for a wide-to-normal shooter.
It is as fast as Nikon claims -- 10fps, 30fps, or 60fps for about 13 shots. And I was happy with the quality of the RAW and JPG files coming out of the camera, although it's harder to control depth of field with the slower lenses and smaller sensor.
As someone else in the thread said, would be a good camera for the wife. Fast shooting is great for sports -- I shot some at a baseball game last weekend. Still trying to find time to go through my shots from that, but will track down a keeper or two shot with the 10mm as requested by Juan and link them here when I find the time!
Good review, what did you think of the cheap looking flash?
jpfisher
09-28-2011, 05:49
Flash is not that bad. Does a decent job at middle distances -- had to dial in some negative EV compensation when using it close and still got some hotspots. Better than the flash on a point-and-shoots I've used.
People care about possibility to take picture not how it's done. This way Nikon (and others) make superzoom P&S cameras without Av Tv M modes - really, modes/scenes are enough. This cameras don't even have real aperture and shutter values to be set - ND filter and electronics do the job. And you talk about small sensors :)
Was that really necessary? :rolleyes:
Just trying to make sure that our feet stay on the ground. ;)
NIKON KIU
09-28-2011, 12:37
I want one of the Pink 1's
http://cdn.press.nikonusa.com/wp-content/gallery/v1/1316579221_FAMILY_3_FPO_FCO_FCP_sm.jpg
For the wife :angel:
Product line-wise it reminds me of the famous Nikkorex 35.
Except that it would have to be bigger and heavier than the D3 to be a legitimate heir to the throne of the Nikkorex. :D
shadowfox
09-29-2011, 14:05
Just posted my review of the J1 -- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2393556,00.asp
After a week with the camera, I have to say that I like it... but I would never by it for myself. No manual focus rings on the lenses and the extreme crop factor make using older glass via a theoretical adapter a tricky proposition for a wide-to-normal shooter.
It is as fast as Nikon claims -- 10fps, 30fps, or 60fps for about 13 shots. And I was happy with the quality of the RAW and JPG files coming out of the camera, although it's harder to control depth of field with the slower lenses and smaller sensor.
As someone else in the thread said, would be a good camera for the wife. Fast shooting is great for sports -- I shot some at a baseball game last weekend. Still trying to find time to go through my shots from that, but will track down a keeper or two shot with the 10mm as requested by Juan and link them here when I find the time!
Thanks for the review Jim.
I was taken aback when I see the 100% crop from the test image. I sure was expecting more details than that murkiness...:eek:
Honestly at this point I just check the news about this camera like I check the sound of a breaking plate in a restaurant, not out of interest, just want to see how bad it could be.
willie_901
09-29-2011, 14:25
The DxO Mark parameters (just published) indicate the sensor performs as well as micro 43 sensors but doesn't come close to an APS-C sensor.
The DxO Mark parameters (just published) indicate the sensor performs as well as micro 43 sensors but doesn't come close to an APS-C sensor.
Yup, they also say the Zeiss 21mm f2.8 distagon is the lowest resolving lens tested for Canon EOS.
When I'm done with my Leica Year, I would love to look into this as a going out camera, especially if Nikon comes out with a 7 or 8mm prime for the system. It would be perfect for my usage. I've also been looking at the Pentax Q with the toy fisheye for such usage too. These pictures would never get printed and I find that the image quality is fine for websharing.
Mackinaw
10-01-2011, 13:50
Except that it would have to be bigger and heavier than the D3 to be a legitimate heir to the throne of the Nikkorex. :D
Nikkorex. Now that's funny!
Jim B.
That's one ugly hump on top of the camera and it doesn't have a finger grip and the sensor is too small. I'm really disappointed in this camera. I think the new Fuji X50 makes more sense.
DaveO
jpfisher
10-06-2011, 16:02
Sorry for the delay, but here are some samples from the J1 with 10mm pancake -- shot RAW, converted with View NX to TIF, and then exported to JPG via Lightroom. Sorry for the three step workflow--Lightroom doesn't offer native support for the RAW files as of yet.
I've got them online here -- http://www.downeffect.com/jim/nikonj1-10mm-samples
Brian Sweeney
10-06-2011, 16:07
Product line-wise it reminds me of the famous Nikkorex 35.
The camera that was so bad that legend has it that Nikon dumped a load of them overboard rather than delivering them...
fireblade
11-03-2011, 05:58
a couple of decent reviews....
http://nikonandye.wordpress.com/cameras/digital-bodies-consumer/with-the-nikon-1-system-in-the-masai-mara/
http://nikonandye.wordpress.com/cameras/digital-bodies-consumer/with-the-nikon-1-system-in-the-masai-mara/a-further-look-into-the-nikon-system-1/
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