View Full Version : sick of reliability issues...
Phil_F_NM
08-16-2011, 18:59
...and kind of sick of digital as a result.
So, I just found ANOTHER hot pixel in my M9.
The first one I found was in the M8 a few months after I got it. I
dealt with it as long as possible but I had to have a digital
camera.
When I got the M9, I found the hot pixel 3 days after taking possession
of it. I then sent the M8 out for repair and almost 3 months later, it
came back in better condition. Right after that, I sent the M9 out for
repair and it took just over 2 months to repair.
Here I am right now with the M8 out for a rangefinder adjustment (among
a few other dubious sounding procedures like "pixel alignment.") It's out of warranty and is going to cost me the same amount as a user M2.
Now my M9 is going in ASAP, while it's under warranty but I'm seriously
considering selling both of them due to this lack of reliability.
I've babied both of these bodies and they have been in the shop a very
significant amount of time that I've owned them. The M9 has been out of
my hands about 1/3 of the time I owned it and the M8 has been out about
1/4 of the time. That's ridiculous. I took both my M4 and old M2 (since
sold) to hell on earth and beat the crap out of them like I wasn't
going to live past the click of the shutter. Both of the film cameras perform amazingly well to this day.
I may be beating a dead horse but I "invested" in these bodies to use
for a career but I've always known that the M4 would be my reliable
backup. I can't afford to have this gear out for expensive repairs this
often. It doesn't make financial sense and regardless how much I like
the M9, I didn't want to own an Alfa-Romeo, Jaguar or a Triumph.
I'm not set up yet to sell stock to pay for the camera. I got the older
one through saving up and tightening my belt. The M9 I got through the
Student Purchase Program and had help paying for it (GI Bill.) If I
sell them, I'll never be able to own another M9 at any price over
$2000. The big question is, can I afford to NOT sell them?
So far, the cameras are glorious disappointments in reliability. They
are fantastic implementations of some kind of ideal but when the rubber
meets the road they don't work reliably. Leica has dropped the ball and
while I love them and their products, they may have lost me for future
new purchases due to their equipment failures.
I'm just sick of this and needed to rant.
Thanks all,
Phil Forrest
-doomed-
08-16-2011, 19:06
Bummer man. I think that I'd be disgusted as well, I went the SLR route for paid work these days. With that said, I miss the form factor of any of my M's.
Phil_F_NM
08-16-2011, 19:16
Yeah, that prospect is really sad but if I had to have this newest issue fixed out of warranty, I could buy an X100 or used Canon 5D + a lens for the same amount of money. I don't know why Leica can't fix this issue that everyone else has. I mean, in a premium cost, supposedly premium quality piece of gear.
I'm thinking a D2X might be the ticket for digital and another M body would have me set for film. Or I could just use all film. Heck, I'm not employed as a journalist right now anyway.
Phil Forrest
ItsReallyDarren
08-16-2011, 19:32
Phil, you deserve better than that. I think Leica, NJ or Solms, needs to see this in a letter so they can make the situation right.
The thought of an expensive repair bill after the camera is out of warranty is daunting. Has anyone had good experience with a 3rd party extended warranty?
Sorry - confused here: does one hot pixel (in the M9) equate to a reliability issue?
(I'm suffering withdrawal at the moment as my M4 is away for repairs and service. Bloody Leica's. :()
Hey, Phil. Sorry about your luck. On the plus side, you have an F3 I know personally works very well, hehe :D.
If you go to eBay, prices there seem obscene these days. You might end up very, very lucky. If it was my bread and butter, I'd seriously consider ditching the cameras if they don't make the rent.
M8's are selling for $2.2k to $3.5k right now. M9's are $5.5k to $7k, most being around $6,000. Hell, I could almost live off that without work for a year and still pick up a D300s to shoot to build up some stock. (I'm frugal, but a part-time job at the Y check-in counter would cement it)
On the D300s note, I'd ignore the D2X and go for a D300s (KEH has Nikon-refurbished and warranted D300s' for $1,200). The output is far better than the D2x (especially at high ISOs), plus they're far lighter and take much cheaper batteries that last a good long while. AF is about in the same league. Of course, if you get top dollar for the Leicas, a D700 or D3 might not be entirely out of the picture.
Hope that was even slightly helpful to the guy who got me into Leicas in the first place.
--Bob
Phil_F_NM
08-16-2011, 20:05
ItsReallyDarren: The M9 is still in warranty. If I had to do this out of warranty I'd be selling an expensive usable paperweight.
ChrisN: I have a bright red pixel in the lower left third of every photo at every ISO, so it's a reliability issue in my book. That, and I've had it fixed on this same camera once before. And once before on the M8.
Yes, it's ONE pixel out of over 18 million of them but it's a very prevalent channel, peaked at about 100% red. I don't want to correct them in post, I want the problem taken care of at the factory. For me and all the digital Leica owners out there.
How the hell can they be making money hand over fist when those of us who actually look at photos to possibly print keep seeing these issues? I have a friend who went through 2 M8 bodies with shutter issues then 2 M9 bodies, one with a sensor fault the other with a shutter issue. He sold them and bought an M6.
Every person I know who has owned an M8 and or an M9 has had an issue with it. They have all gone back to the factory. I think that's close to 100 camera bodies that have gone back for some severe issue. This is not the "beta" M8 we're talking about either, it's the "flagship" of Leica and what is inflating prices on all things Leica compatible rangefinder these days. It's BS is what it is.
Phil
benmacphoto
08-16-2011, 20:14
Sorry to read this Phil.
After going through my M8 issue, my own fault, I'm very happy with my M6 and Nikon scanner.
I've got no complaints going all film with my M's, they've never let me down.
And you know, now you can use that new Rolleiflex more.
Get an SLR (Canon 5D) for digital and a Leica M for film use... this sounds easy to me
Sorry to hear that Phil.
I deal with hot pixels in my astro photography chips but I take a dark subtracts and remove them. Works for outer space but not here on earth.
Sounds like a Leica quality control issue. I don't know what brand chips they are using but I haven't heard any issues like this from the Epson users or for that matter the micro 4/3 users.
I hope Leica gets on board quickly and solves this issue.
Gary
Phil_F_NM
08-16-2011, 20:38
Bob:
Thanks for the encouragement and perspective of the options. I was thinking D2x because I can use ancient Nikon glass which I love.
By the way, I still have a "homemade" ~35mm finder for you and somewhere here is a standard cable release adapter. I'll stick them in the mail when I find that cable release adapter.
Ben:
Yeah, you and Sam have both shown me that film is still good. And I have that awesome scanner and the awesome computer that I just upgraded with 3TB of RAID5 storage. I can scan TIFFs for quite a while with that amount of room.
My M4, another film M body, a few bricks of Plus-X and Tri-X, plus a road trip are probably a good cure for what ails me.
K14: They've been dealing with it since the debut of the M8 a few years ago. I think they will just keep cranking out cameras and letting people think their $7000 photo experience is flawless. Don't pixel peep though!
Phil Forrest
rdeleskie
08-16-2011, 20:46
If it makes you feel any better, my digital Nikons and M4/3 cameras all have hot pixels, so I don't think it's strictly a Leica reliability issue. I've chosen to ignore them: they're a quick fix in Aperture when need be. That said, I might feel differently if I'd paid Leica prices for those bodies, and so I sympathize with your frustration.
Just logically, it doesn't make any sense to use equipment professionally (or otherwise...) that you can't afford to repair. I feel for you, it's hard to face disappointment in gear you thought would work for you, I've been there a lot. That said, I had two D200's with decent amounts of hot pixels. I have to admit I didn't mind them at all, rather charming. Film has dust, digital has hot pixels. That's just me, I certainly understand someone being upset about it. People are different. My only digital these days is a Canon A560 though, nice unit. Best luck to you!
fotomeow
08-16-2011, 20:55
Phil, I think you are right on. You dont buy a Mercedes or a BMW to have it keep disappointing you.
I had a nice specimen M8.Ux3 that was great to use, but due to all the problems that other users IDed,
I decided that I would buy an extra warranty (Mack) to hedge my bets.
I sold the camera with the warranty still on it, so the new user could send it in when they received it if they wanted.
The new user received it and then reported bad vertical line streaking, so he sent it in to Leica.
I was just fantasizing about that Black Dot M9 in the Classifieds right now, that all the posters are frothing over. THen I saw this post, and thank you for reminding me about Leica. I'm not writing them off completely, since I may have to get another film M to replace the one that I sold so I could buy the M8.U! (and future digital).
fotomeow
08-16-2011, 20:57
Ranchu: "Film has dust, digital has hot pixels. " Well said, and point taken. THere is no
perfect medium.
Honest question here: is digital technology yet at the point where it is possible to guarantee zero hot pixels on a sensor? I know my Pentax has a "Pixel Mapping" option in the menus, which "corrects defective pixels" (presumably by turning off that pixel). Isn't this common on high-end cameras?
Phil_F_NM
08-16-2011, 21:09
The problem with Leica's hot pixels is that they come with vertical lines and while a hot pixel can be corrected for, a vertical line through a scene with varying gradations in contrast can't. I haven't seen the line yet, but it will be there soon enough. Actually, I won't know, the camera isn't having one more frame shot as I'm sending it in to Leica ASAP before the warranty runs out. Hopefully this shortage of Leica bodies and lenses is still around when the M9 comes back from NJ.
For now, I'm shooting with a Rolleiflex!
(life could be worse)
ChrisN: pixel mapping IS common. The RD1 had it in 2004 even. But no Leica digital has it. That fact is so ridiculous that it's funny.
Phil Forrest
As I understand it, sensors can always have hot pixels, they're too expensive to throw out the units that have them, and I guess they can appear over time, so they map them out in camera firmware. Seems to me mine may have got more numerous on the camera I owned from new, not much though. Nikon's raw software had a setting that got rid of them but the file wasn't as pixel sharp. That was the reason I was using the D200 with the CCD, so I didn't use it, it was different than whatever the factory did. You could send them to Nikon and have them map them out though. edit: didn't know about the lines, and no mapping with the Leicas. Gee.
Sorry if I sound unsympathetic Phil. I'd like to consider an M9 one day, and it's disappointing to hear of these problems still, and frustrating to lose the camera for months for a fix.
Just googled and have learned the difference between dead pixels, stuck pixels and hot pixels. Give me dust any day!
Also found an interesting post on the Adobe Lightroom forums that suggests that Adobe Camera RAW is pretty good at spotting and removing hot pixels in RAW files while it processes them. Good news for RAW shooters using ACR (if it works!).
Nikon's raw software had a setting that got rid of them but the file wasn't as pixel sharp. That was the reason I was using the D200 with the CCD, so I didn't use it, it was different than whatever the factory did. You could send them to Nikon and have them map them out though.
Thinking about that, it may be wrong. I think the jpegs didn't have the hot pixels, but the raws did, but you could send it in to map it out on the raws. Sorry, it was a while ago.
goodtimes
08-16-2011, 21:55
What does a HOT PIXEL look like from a resulting point of view?
Sorry about that mate, I hope it all gets fixed quick smart for you.
But...
How the hell can they be making money hand over fist
...they dont.
leica has been making losses from camera sales for many years and only this year they managed to pay their shareholders a tiny dividend.
Leicas dont make financial sense to customer or manufacturer. It's a passion, enjoy it :)
I could buy an X100 or used Canon 5D + a lens for the same amount of money. I don't know why Leica can't fix this issue that everyone else has.
Regarding reliability of digital cameras, my M8 has given me the least amount of headache per photo, per day, and probably per euro, out of any serious digital cameras I have owned. The only issues are small rangefinder adjustments and the poor compatibility of third-party batteries (for which it is not necessarily fair to blame Leica). On the other hand, every single Canon DSLR has given me trouble that has resulted in losing a few photos or losing many more opportunities, and I have owned several. It happens.
Bob:
I was thinking D2x because I can use ancient Nikon glass which I love.
OT - You can use older Nikon manual focus lenses on Nikon DSLRs in general. The Nikon manual focus confirmation system also works very well. Here (http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/compatibility-lens.htm) (at Ken Rockwell) is a table (scroll down) which details compatibility between different Nikon DSLRs and the various generations of older lenses - which will meter, which will only work manually etc.
tom.w.bn
08-16-2011, 23:25
It's not too bad to have a digital camera with only one hotpixel imho. My 5D2 had four of them but Lightropm took care of them automatically. My M8 does not have these problems.
RF issues are a different thing though.
I'm a bit confused about this out of warranty affair. Each serious repair brings its own certificate for a year's guaranty on the whole camera, and Leica offers the purchase of an extended guaranty.
LeicaTom
08-17-2011, 00:21
I'm a bit confused about this out of warranty affair. Each serious repair brings its own certificate for a year's guaranty on the whole camera, and Leica offers the purchase of an extended guaranty.
Hmm well then Leica owes me two years warranty, my camera has been back now 2 times and is going back for a 3rd time to finish repairs that have taken months and months to do, Leica Solms is a mess in my opinion - a bunch of unprofessional very confused people, they had my camera for over 2 months and did nothing with it and Leica NJ has had it now again and will get it back to repair things that they didn't take care of in the first place.
My 11 year old M6 works better and is way more dependable, though sadly most of my clients want digital, b/c it's faster for them :(
Tom
If the M9 and M8 do not satisfy you, then I'd get shot of them. I think 99% of the reason we buy Leicas and the like is the feeling they give us. If you're not getting that feeling, then I'd trade them in, get something like a 5D, and use the change to travel and stock up on film for the M4.
Alternatively, maybe tell Leica of your feelings and maybe rather than make you wait for a repair, they could give you a replacement right away, at least on loan.
Doesn't the m9 come with adobe lightroom? If so, lightroom removes them automatically. Every digital camera I've ever owned has has stuck or dead pixels. It's normal. Just either run a pixel map in-camera (if you shoot jpegs) or use lightroom and never see it every again - it's hardly a camera problem...
ray*j*gun
08-17-2011, 02:49
Come on, if my D90 can make flawless images time after time after time why would Leica be unable to achieve such competence?
I love my Barnacks and my M2 but I don't even consider the 8's or 9's.
tom.w.bn
08-17-2011, 03:53
Come on, if my D90 can make flawless images time after time after time why would Leica be unable to achieve such competence?
I love my Barnacks and my M2 but I don't even consider the 8's or 9's.
A hotpixel does not prevent you from taking flawless images. I bet there are enough D90 out there with hotpixels but the image software takes good care of that so most users never know they have this problem.
Come on, if my D90 can make flawless images time after time after time why would Leica be unable to achieve such competence?
I love my Barnacks and my M2 but I don't even consider the 8's or 9's.
Bet any money your d90 has hot pixel/s. If you shoot raw you wouldn't notice them anyway - they get sampled out in the conversion by most software.
Viktor Sebastian
08-17-2011, 04:30
...and kind of sick of digital as a result.
So far, the cameras are glorious disappointments in reliability. They
are fantastic implementations of some kind of ideal but when the rubber
meets the road they don't work reliably. Leica has dropped the ball and
while I love them and their products, they may have lost me for future
new purchases due to their equipment failures.
I totally agree with you. One of my M8s had to have the rear screen reattached at the cost of about $1200USD, One year on and now the rear dial has stopped working so I need to send it in again to have that fixed.
My other M8 needs to be sent in to repair a dead pixel line.
So basically another few thousand to get them both up to speed.
My canons, however, have never missed a beat. In fact for the repair costs of the M8s I could buy another canon body.
Bet any money your d90 has hot pixel/s. If you shoot raw you wouldn't notice them anyway - they get sampled out in the conversion by most software.The issue is one of reliability rather than a specific fault. Nikons are very reliable and digital Leicas are not. There was a survey here maybe a year ago of the type problems/no problems with your M9? I believe the idea was to achieve a large enough pool of responses to give statistical significance to the result. Last time I saw it the fault rate was about 25%, which to me as an amateur photographer is way too much of a risk. I'd love to buy an M9 and I have the glass for it but I'm not prepared to put up with the aggravation.
MCTuomey
08-17-2011, 04:49
Sorry for your frustration, Phil.
If you think dSLRs don't need hot pixel remapping, think again. Every one of the Canon dSLRs I've owned got a re-map job at some point, except for the 1D III I'm using now, probably because I haven't used it much.
Digital capture entails its own set of issues and requirements. Any brand or make. And Leica dRFs are, imvho, beset by a fair share. They are a special breed, nothing like the pro brick-like dSLRs that are the alternative small format digi equipment of choice if you want a more rugged reliable camera. The M8/9 problems frankly have to be accepted and worked through if you want to shoot digital with RF gear. We just have to put up with it, or return to film capture, or shoot a tough dSLR.
There is a clear reason why pros shooting digital leicas are in such a minority. An M8 or M9 is relatively delicate and needs service more than most working photographers would put up with. Amateurs and hobbyists, well, they've got time to spare compared to a pro and, necessarily in the case of Leica gear, money to burn on their avocation.
Me, I really like the output, especially in print, from the M8/9 with the glass I have. That's the upshot. An M8/9 is expensive to acquire and expensive to repair and maintain. At this point, I'm reconciled to those facts. The pictures make it worth it to me.
The issue is one of reliability rather than a specific fault. Nikons are very reliable and digital Leicas are not. There was a survey here maybe a year ago of the type problems/no problems with your M9? I believe the idea was to achieve a large enough pool of responses to give statistical significance to the result. Last time I saw it the fault rate was about 25%, which to me as an amateur photographer is way too much of a risk. I'd love to buy an M9 and I have the glass for it but I'm not prepared to put up with the aggravation.
I understand what you're saying, I would agree that the Japanese DSLRs are very reliable - my 5ds have been flogged and never a fault, but I don't consider a hot pixel on a digital camera to be a problem. It happens to all of them.
I have 2 M8 cameras which have been fine, but there may always be a lemon at an expensive price. I have tested the m9 3 times and the result for me was to buy a second M8 (the M9 and M8 are too close in performance to justify the cost).
I am much more likely to buy the new Nex 7 for $1,200. Sensor is close to the M8 in size, 23 or so MP and superior high ISO. I will use the extra cash savings for more glorious M lenses!!!!!
Every person I know who has owned an M8 and or an M9 has had an issue with it.
Phil
I've had my M8 for four years and it has never been back. So far no issues at all.
Hope yours get resolved.
First, have you signed up with Leica as a Pro user (assuming that you are a full-time Pro)? I've found Solms' pro service to exceed any other manufacturers although I've only used it once.
Secondly, much as I like Leica M digitals, I could not make a living by using just RF cameras (I'm apparently the only Pro using dMs that my Leica dealer knows) so I have dSLRs too. Unless you are extremely specialised I would assume that you too have a dSLR system (which can be used as a backup?).
Thirdly, I have had one issue with my 2 M8s - a line at 640ISO dealt with under warranty within a week including international shipping so it does sound as if you have been unfortunate to me, and dSLRs have issues too I'm afraid.
Sign up to Leica's Pro service and persevere and you might just be surprised.
When I was using my M8 to shoot gallery openings I often had to clone out the odd hot pixel in post ... which I didn't mind to much. The crappy high ISO performance bothered me far more!
I've also noticed the odd hot pixel in my D700 ... however, they seem disappear in the transition to tif.
mabelsound
08-17-2011, 05:39
Good luck, Phil. My M8 needed a new sensor (under warranty luckily) but the M9 has been great so far.
I think of hot pixels as the dust of the digital world. Definitely map 'em out in LR! But ultimately you need to feel confident in your cameras, and if you can't, then you gotta move on.
Viktor Sebastian
08-17-2011, 05:39
Sign up to Leica's Pro service and persevere and you might just be surprised.
I have been waiting for about 7 months for my application to be processed. But hey, the year isn‘t out yet.
willie_901
08-17-2011, 07:21
Forget the D2X.
The D200/300/700/D3 all work well with manual focus lenses. The D2X sensor is inferior to all but the D200. However the D2X is a tank. So if you need a really tough body I guess it's worth it. A few years ago I met a pro who shot sports 6 or 7 days a week all year long. He had a suitcase full (literally) of surplus D2X bodies wrapped in towels. All of them had exceeded the MTBF shutter rating. All of them worked and he was selling them for a song.
A nice D300 is about $900-$1000 (US). The D700 handles manual focus better than the D300. However it is noticeably larger and louder too.
Of course DSLRs are heavy and loud compared to the M9 (but you already know that). I have owned two, D200s, a D300 and two D700s. None of them has had a problem. Needless to say you will find many people who experienced reliability problems with any camera system.
A brass Leica lens on a brass body feels about the same weight as my Fuji S5. Yes the Fuji is a bit bigger but then I think the M9 is a bit bigger and fatter than an MP. There really isn't that much difference.
http://www.nolan.com/forum_imgs/leica_MP_fuji_s5_588W.jpg
Me, I really like the output, especially in print, from the M8/9 with the glass I have. That's the upshot. An M8/9 is expensive to acquire and expensive to repair and maintain. At this point, I'm reconciled to those facts. The pictures make it worth it to me.I really like the pictures from the M9 too Mike and I'd much rather use a rangefinder than a dSLR but until Leica gets the M9 sorted I'll wait, and my blood pressure will stay normal. :) In maybe 2-3 years?
I really like the pictures from the M9 too Mike and I'd much rather use a rangefinder than a dSLR but until Leica gets the M9 sorted I'll wait, and my blood pressure will stay normal. :) In maybe 2-3 years?
As one who's M9 has been back to Leica (one of the small batch with the cracked sensor problem) I appreciate both sides of the argument. I wish it hadn't had the problem, but it still remains the best tool for the job as far as I'm concerened, and that outweighs everything else. I also know that the relative few cameras that have suffered problems get reported time after time on the internet which makes the situation look far worse than it is.
So consider all the many thousands of people who are using an M9 without any problems and take that as a true state of affairs.
Steve
LeicaTravel
08-17-2011, 08:31
Hey Phil, sorry to hear about your troubles! Sell em both! ;-) Pick up a late serial M4-2 (clean for $850.00) and you're back in biz!
Regards.
Montie
Moriturii
08-17-2011, 08:45
It's just the nature of digital sensors' problems. Using negatives have it's issues (scratch, dust, bad batch of emulsion etc) and digital have it's, you just got to live with it, i.e send it back AGAIN (even if it's for the 10th time) and c'est la vie, bad luck, mal chance.
presspass
08-17-2011, 08:45
Could it be that the digital Leicas are boutique items and not intended for pro use? I use my M8 for newspaper work and, so far, it's been fine. But I also use Canon D1 and D20 cameras and they, too, have been fine and at a much lower cost than the Leicas. I still shoot black and white film for some assignments - and I can get away with that - but if I know I'm going to have to depend on digital, I'll go with the Canons. It's too bad, but that's how life is right now out here in the country.
rogerzilla
08-17-2011, 08:55
I'd keep the film Leicas and buy a Nikon D700 for digital. OK, you'll need a complete set of Nikon lenses, but you can buy old MF lenses for peanuts.
jbielikowski
08-17-2011, 08:56
c'moan its digital, what did you expect?
MCTuomey
08-17-2011, 09:17
A brass Leica lens on a brass body feels about the same weight as my Fuji S5. Yes the Fuji is a bit bigger but then I think the M9 is a bit bigger and fatter than an MP. There really isn't that much difference.
http://www.nolan.com/forum_imgs/leica_MP_fuji_s5_588W.jpg
I really like the pictures from the M9 too Mike and I'd much rather use a rangefinder than a dSLR but until Leica gets the M9 sorted I'll wait, and my blood pressure will stay normal. :) In maybe 2-3 years?
Waiting is not a bad idea at all, Peter. Especially with the results you get from what you're shooting today. Gear fits aren't conducive to good photography :)
So I had a shoot to do last night at a club for a magazine, a funk band. I know the owner, a hole in the knee jeans wearing billionaire who is a devout photo nut. Unlike the press and other photogs, he usually lets me bring what ever gear I want if I ask him first and not use flash. But last night I could not get ahold of him right away, so I made a simple plan.
I took my D700 with a 35 1.4G and my X100 and stuffed into a bag and then went to dinner with my wife. I decided that if I could get ahold of him, I would use the D700, if not, I would just stuff the X100 in my pocket and get the job done anyway, knew he would not mind.
I had to go with the X100 since I did not hear from him. In short, it totally blew my mind how it did, nailed focus 95% of the time and even did fantastic in tracking the action. No one really noticed me using it and when they did, it looked like a point and shoot of which it is not.
What I am trying to say, to the OP, is that life is too short for frustration. If you have the money to use the M9 as a 10% of the time tool, then you will feel less pressure to use it all the time. But most of us working shooters don't have that kind of disposable cash and even though I now do have the money to get one, I need tools that do the same thing, day after day, hour after hour with a minimum of fuss and frustration not to mention maintenance and the price being one that does not erode my travel and book project budgets. The D3, D700 and yes, even the quirky X100 do that for me in flawless fashion.
If you give up on the M9, get an X100, it is a total game changer of a camera and if I can put 10,000++ frames through it in less than three months with no issues at all and even a members of Magnum (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=39045197) can use it, so can you...
Leica is fantastic gear, but unfortunately, it is fantastically priced and fantastically problematic at times and at the end of the day, a talented photographer will make his best images with the tool he trusts the most and as you know, nothing else in the world of photography matters as much as how good your images are....
Time to grab my M6, M3 and go shoot some Tri-x, all this red dot talk is making me hungry for the real thing...:)
Peter Klein
08-17-2011, 11:00
All cameras get hot pixels. It's just that some have a firmware routine to map them out (e.g. Olympus, Panasonic), and some don't (Leica).
There is not reason to dump Leica. Instead, get this free software (PC-only unfortunately): http://pixelfixer.org/
You calibrate it once, then run it on each folder full of RAW files before bringing it into your RAW developer program. Save the trip to Leica repair for a truly serious issue. This isn't one. It may also be that the vertical line you think you have is just a processing artifact of another hot pixel. Try PixelFixer and see.
--Peter
willie_901
08-17-2011, 13:34
So if I spend $9K on a M9, and hot pixels cause significant artifacts (vertical lines). I am supposed to use third party donation-funded software and add a batch processing step to my workflow?
Or I should register as a Leica Pro so my camera gets repaired in a timely fashion? And, when warranty has expired I then pay for hot pixel adjustment?
And, these options are acceptable and normal procedures for M8/9 owners?
dave lackey
08-17-2011, 13:56
Forget the D2X.
The D200/300/700/D3 all work well with manual focus lenses. The D2X sensor is inferior to all but the D200. However the D2X is a tank. So if you need a really tough body I guess it's worth it. A few years ago I met a pro who shot sports 6 or 7 days a week all year long. He had a suitcase full (literally) of surplus D2X bodies wrapped in towels. All of them had exceeded the MTBF shutter rating. All of them worked and he was selling them for a song.
A nice D300 is about $900-$1000 (US). The D700 handles manual focus better than the D300. However it is noticeably larger and louder too.
Of course DSLRs are heavy and loud compared to the M9 (but you already know that). I have owned two, D200s, a D300 and two D700s. None of them has had a problem. Needless to say you will find many people who experienced reliability problems with any camera system.
Forget the D2x? Nah...great camera! Used it for quite awhile and cannot recommend it any higher! They are available for around $800 these days.:)
But, seriously, why not just work out the situation with Leica?
bobby_novatron
08-17-2011, 14:28
I think KM-25 had a great observation:
"Leica is fantastic gear, but unfortunately, it is fantastically priced and fantastically problematic at times and at the end of the day, a talented photographer will make his best images with the tool he trusts the most and as you know, nothing else in the world of photography matters as much as how good your images are...."
IMHO, the more I read about the reliability issues of Leica digital bodies, the less attractive they seem.
My M6 has worked flawlessly, and I enjoy using it. I have no desire to 'trade up' to a digital M-body.
For faster work-flow and more strenuous conditions, I use my 5DmkII. I've never had a hot pixel, nor a single reliability issue. I've shot tens of thousands of actuations on that camera and it has never let me down. I took it through 7 countries in SE Asia during monsoon season in 2009, and it never failed me. It's a damn good camera.
I hate to say it, but Leica seems to not seem to have its act together with the digital bodies. Frankly, it's unbelievable how many posts I read on RFF and elsewhere about "oh, I had to send my M8 to Leica NJ", or "still waiting for my M9 warranty repair from Solms." I mean, come on! This is a $7000 camera we're talking about. At let's not even get started about the whole IR sensitivity fiasco with the M8.
tom.w.bn
08-17-2011, 14:59
I mean, come on! This is a $7000 camera we're talking about.
I don't get it. Why do people always think that they get a more reliable camera just because it's expensive. You get a handmade, small series camera that's different and it's the only one of it's class. That's why people pay $7000.
No one is really shocked that there are some cheaper japanese cars that are more reliable than a BMW 7 or S-class Mercedes.
ray*j*gun
08-17-2011, 15:06
Bet any money your d90 has hot pixel/s. If you shoot raw you wouldn't notice them anyway - they get sampled out in the conversion by most software.
Then whats the issue? I'm not being argumentative but is there a real practical problem here? If so how does my lowly D90 take care of it?
bobby_novatron
08-17-2011, 15:09
tom.w.bn -- you are correct. I did not want to come off as sounding like I was disparaging the Leica brand. Frankly, I'm very glad Leica is still around and has managed to survive into the 21st century. I am sure that many Leica M8 and M9 users are very satisfied with their purchases.
That being said, the reliability experiences of the OP and others seem somewhat disappointing. Yes, it's an expensive hand-made camera that's manufactured in small batches. In my opinion, that fact alone means the harsh glare of consumer scrutiny shines brightly on their quality control.
Roger Hicks
08-17-2011, 15:30
There is a point in life where one wants tranquility in one's pleasures. ;)
However I do believe the faults of the M9 are probably overblown - and I could easily tolerate them.
I do. But then, all I use it for is part of earning my living. Nothing serious like pixel peeping.
Cheers,
R.
bobby_novatron
08-17-2011, 15:32
FWIW, there was a similar thread on this topic right here on RFF almost exactly a year ago...
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94409&page=2
I'm sure a simple search would turn up more threads as well, but I'm busy making lasagna. :p
Brian Sweeney
08-17-2011, 15:40
http://www.ziforums.com/picture.php?albumid=206&pictureid=2027
My first Digital SLR is going to be 20 years old soon. It had a zero-defect Kodak KAF-1600 in it when brand new, in 1993. It has picked up 3 hot pixels, out of 1.6million.
bobby_novatron
08-17-2011, 15:44
Since I'm waiting for the lasagna, I thought I'd dig up more info about this reliability issue. Here's a completely unscientific, biased, possibly incorrect 19 times out of 20 'poll' from 2010 about the M9 reliability issue:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=99109
Back to the lasagna.
Roger Hicks
08-17-2011, 15:46
My first Digital SLR is going to be 20 years old soon. It had a zero-defect Kodak KAF-1600 in it when brand new, in 1993. It has picked up 3 hot pixels, out of 1.6million.
Dear Brian,
So... almost 100x worse than the M9, then...
3x the OP's complaint, on a bit under 1/10 the number of pixels.
Cheers,
R.
Brian Sweeney
08-17-2011, 16:06
Mean Time Between Bad Pixel Occurance about 5 years?
I'm still using the original 80MByte SCSI disk in it. It is not removable.
I have a Canon 7d, 5DII, 5D, 30D and a 350. What amazes me is no hot pixels and if there were, well I expect a few. The M9 I have had a few but they went away. The problem I have is that my sensor needs either an extreme cleaning, which I can't accomplish even with wet cleaning or it again needs a new sensor (the first sensor glass separated). I have hundreds of tiny dots on the sensor and can not shoot past 4.5 to maybe 5.6 or they show up, everywhere. I use the M9 in my work because I can see the action as the shutter is released and it distracts less than a a 5DIi or other SLR. People ignore it pretty quick and in visual anthropology that is a good way to have it.
I hope Leica gets some of these problems ironed out soon. Dave of NJ has been helpful but when out shooting you really don't want the gear putting limitations on the results. I do enough of that myself.
bobby_novatron
08-17-2011, 16:48
Maybe the used market for Kodak KAF-1600 is going to heat up because of this thread! Dang, Brian -- you've ahead of the curve already!
BTW I have a perfectly functional circa-2002 Canon G2. It has a powerful 4 megapixel sensor, with a monstrous 32MB compact flash card! The camera has a hot pixel on the playback screen. I would send it to the Japanese version of Solms, but the postage is worth more than the camera. ;)
Phil_F_NM
08-17-2011, 18:20
I know digital sensors get hot pixels. These days there are easy mapping utilities, yes. The price that I paid and that thousands of others have paid begs Leica to correct the issue once an for all. Leica CCD hot pixels aren't just dirty looking gobs. They are usually fully excited to 255 red or green or blue and a thin line of the negative color extends vertically through the pixel from top to bottom of the frame. I know how this progresses, I've had it happen twice so far to my cameras (now three times) and have watched it progressed with others' cameras. The pixel isn't the bad part as much as the line that dissects the image and is very hard to correct.
So part of what I'm hearing is "you bought a Mercedes SLK xxx and now you complain that it's expensive to fix?" or more so "It's an expensive camera made by hand, just put up with the problems."
At the same time I also hear "It cost so much money for a camera that the price alone should be a guarantee of reliability."
What I'm meaning to say is that for the amount that is paid for a Leica M9, a photographer, be they pro or amateur or an 11 year old girl from Perth Amboy shooting with a lensbaby on an adapter, should get outstanding service and some type of faith in the reliability of the product.
Leica cameras have always been pretty reliable until the digital bodies came along. When they strayed into electronic territory too much, too soon, they got bitten in the ass by either bad marketing or bad reliability (some say the CL, R4, R8/9-DMP, M7, M8, M9.) The M film body has "fought in every clime and place" and for the most part they have had few issues. When one purchases a Leica, they aren't just getting a camera to shoot photos of their cats, dogs, brick walls, flowers and grandkids. Many are buying into a legacy of the finest quality photo gear ever made and expect that the marque will hold up to that reputation.
There is a part of me that wants to say "I told you so" to the naysayers and to Leica. I'm part of the next generation of would-be Leica users and they got some money from me for the M9 but I'm not so stupid anymore. I buy used and if I don't get the service that my dollars paid for, I'll be damned if I buy another new piece of Leica gear or ever recommend them to other folks who would be in a position to buy new. At this point I won't at all. Eventually, Leica's biggest group of patrons (generationally speaking) will no longer be here and their kids may or may not want to buy into the brand. At their current level of reliability vs cost a person would have to not care, have too much money and not enough to do with it, or be completely out of their mind in some other way to expect that a current production digital Leica will be a reliable tool.
Really, we shouldn't be putting up with it at all. I won't and I'll keep you all posted on what Leica says and does.
Phil Forrest
tom.w.bn
08-17-2011, 21:29
Leica CCD hot pixels aren't just dirty looking gobs. They are usually fully excited to 255 red or green or blue and a thin line of the negative color extends vertically through the pixel from top to bottom of the frame. I know how this progresses, I've had it happen twice so far to my cameras (now three times) and have watched it progressed with others' cameras. The pixel isn't the bad part as much as the line that dissects the image and is very hard to correct.
I see. The hotpixels of the 5D2 were just colourful dots and those could easily be removed by the software. This seems to be different and more complicated to get rid of.
I know digital sensors get hot pixels. These days there are easy mapping utilities, yes. The price that I paid and that thousands of others have paid begs Leica to correct the issue once an for all. Leica CCD hot pixels aren't just dirty looking gobs. They are usually fully excited to 255 red or green or blue and a thin line of the negative color extends vertically through the pixel from top to bottom of the frame. I know how this progresses, I've had it happen twice so far to my cameras (now three times) and have watched it progressed with others' cameras. The pixel isn't the bad part as much as the line that dissects the image and is very hard to correct.
Phil - I didn't realize this to be the case with the digital M's - this indeed sounds like a very big problem.
Peter Klein
08-17-2011, 23:02
Phil: The vertical line that emanates from a hot pixel is not real. The line is not a flaw in the sensor. It is a processing artifact caused by that one hot pixel.
PixelFixer does the exact same thing that Leica's repair does, which is the same thing that Panasonic and Olympus' mapping routines do. They mark the pixel as bad, and tell the camera (or PixelFixer, or the RAW software) to ignore it and interpolate its value based on its neighbors. In most cases, the vertical line disappears.
(Note that there is also a sensor flaw which causes a vertical line to appear smack down the middle of the sensor, and in rare cases an entire column of pixels on a sensor fails. But these are different issues entirely).
Should the M9 have a pixel mapping routine? Sure. I hope they add one. The M8 will never have one, because the firmware space is maxed out.
But the good news is that the M8 and M9's sensors are really no worse than any other. It's just that many other cameras hide hot pixels when you run a firmware routine. With the M8/9, you see them and you have to send the camera to NJ or Solms to map them out, or just run a simple software routine on each folder of RAW files before you process them. It takes less time to do the latter than it does to explain it.
You have a right to be annoyed, and I hope Leica fixes your hot pixels for free. But when another one appears, and it will, don't blame Leica. Blame the universe. Then main cause of hot pixels is cosmic rays hitting the sensor.
My choice is to continue to use my M8 happily, and use PixelFixer until the day that it needs a real repair. At which point I'll ask Leica to map them out along with whatever else is needed.
Leica = heritage, byword in reliability, hand made by elves, expensive = high expectations. 100% reliability is expensive and unrealistic, but what one can do is to have good systems in place to manage failures - this is where its seems that Leica have fallen down. It is relatively easy to fix - just get some experienced customer service staff and put a priority on fixing problems - set reasonable expectations and meet them. It is interesting that whilst there have been failures with the Fuji X100, most of the posts I've seen have been praising the service and turn around, not dissing the camera, whereas with Leica it seems like you are throwing your camera into a black hole without any confidence about when it will return or if it will be fixed.
Who makes the sensor used in the M9? Not Leica I guess. A sensor can test 100% when new but develop a few hot pixels over time. Not Leica's fault as no sensor maker can guarantee zero bad pixels for the life of the sensor. So Leica has to work with the sensor maker, and hopefully respond as best they can if problems arise.
One thought: Leica provide Lightroom as part of the package, not just because its handy but also because LR uses Adobe Camera Raw which will process out the hot pixels. Pros wanting ultimate image quality will of course be shooting in RAW (:)) and if I process with the software provided, LR should take care of any hot pixels. I must confess I've never seen one in the Pentax files I process in Lightroom, and I'm sure the camera can generate a few!
Personally I don't think digital Ms will ever be able to approach the ruggedness and reliability of the old M cameras - digital capture simply means too much to go wrong and if you wanted to build the ultimate reliability camera you wouldn't start with the M concept.
One thought: Leica provide Lightroom as part of the package, not just because its handy but also because LR uses Adobe Camera Raw which will process out the hot pixels. Pros wanting ultimate image quality will of course be shooting in RAW (:)) and if I process with the software provided, LR should take care of any hot pixels. I must confess I've never seen one in the Pentax files I process in Lightroom, and I'm sure the camera can generate a few!
This bit in particular is spot on, and I think before you go any further, you should tell us if the dead pixel/line still shows in ACR or lightroom from a raw conversion?
Brian Sweeney
08-18-2011, 01:42
The M9 used a Kodak KAF-18500 CCD and the M8 uses a Kodak KAF-10500.
This is why FSU cameras is so great, when you buy it you are allowed to both love it and complain! Somewhere between 50$ and the cost of a M9 there is a magic border, if you exceed it you are not allowed to complain, just love.
emraphoto
08-18-2011, 03:32
I do. But then, all I use it for is part of earning my living. Nothing serious like pixel peeping.
Cheers,
R.
Well, at one point Roger you and I were similar beasts. Sadly my digital Leica experience was not tolerable and after a very long time using them, I said 'bugger them'. In my case it was not only camera reliability. Leica's response (and response time) was completely unacceptable. Combine that with the general consensus that I should feel 'privaleged' that Leica fixed my 1 week old, $5500 dollar, camera and it only took 2.5 months, numerous phone calls and finally a terse email to Leica... Well, you get the point.
I believe it is well established that I spend very little time pixel peeping.
Roger Hicks
08-18-2011, 04:05
Well, at one point Roger you and I were similar beasts. Sadly my digital Leica experience was not tolerable and after a very long time using them, I said 'bugger them'. In my case it was not only camera reliability. Leica's response (and response time) was completely unacceptable. Combine that with the general consensus that I should feel 'privaleged' that Leica fixed my 1 week old, $5500 dollar, camera and it only took 2.5 months, numerous phone calls and finally a terse email to Leica... Well, you get the point.
I believe it is well established that I spend very little time pixel peeping.
Sure. I don't claim that Leicas are perfect. Nor do I claim that the only reason to reject them is pixel peeping. But for every person with a story like yours, there is another with unreasonable expectations, and there are quite a few who are happy enough using them. It's the extrapolation of 'My experience is the only experience' that I'm against (and of course, I'm not accusing you of that).
Ultimately, it's just a camera, and like any other camera, if it suits you, use it, and if it doesn't, don't. The fact that it's a very expensive camera tends to skew the debate a bit, but ultimately, as I say, that doesn't affect the simple truth that it's just a camera.
Cheers,
R.
emraphoto
08-18-2011, 04:35
Sure. I don't claim that Leicas are perfect. Nor do I claim that the only reason to reject them is pixel peeping. But for every person with a story like yours, there is another with unreasonable expectations, and there are quite a few who are happy enough using them. It's the extrapolation of 'My experience is the only experience' that I'm against (and of course, I'm not accusing you of that).
Ultimately, it's just a camera, and like any other camera, if it suits you, use it, and if it doesn't, don't. The fact that it's a very expensive camera tends to skew the debate a bit, but ultimately, as I say, that doesn't affect the simple truth that it's just a camera.
Cheers,
R.
indeed. might i also add that my experience, the negative aspect, was with Leica as a service provider versus the camera.
I have been waiting for about 7 months for my application to be processed. But hey, the year isn‘t out yet.
Well I'd suggest a phone call should sort this out - I've been very impressed with Leica's responses and speed of repair so far. 7 months clearly means that something must have gone wrong which I'd suggest could be fixed with a 'phone call.
I have to say that I read very, very polarised views of Leica's service ,some of which bear no relationship to my own experience. I wonder, are we all dealing with the same company? Given your situation I'd suggest a few 'phone calls would be worthwhile to straighten everything out.
Fortunately the only problem with my M9 is the leatherette is peeling off and in the UK they can't even fix that but have to send it to Solms taking about 4+ weeks. Canon however managed a sensor clean on my 1Dsmk3 in 2 hours while I waited. None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me. Why did Leica close their UK service centre at Milton Keynes (Did they think their products never go wrong!) Leatherette aside the M9 is a delight!
Why don't you get a nice Cameraleather special covering, rip off the old stuff and apply say Snakeskin, Kid leather or any other of Morgan's offerings? I have done so regularly. Recommended for DIY!
http://www.cameraleather.com/
Phil_F_NM
08-29-2011, 22:22
Like I've said, it's not just the pixel itself, it's the vertical line which is created in the camera along with the stuck pixel. It's very hard to correct for in a way that does not look obvious.
I've seen two additional M8 bodies that had to go back to Leica for this very reason since I last posted in this thread.
As for warranty work, Leica will indeed fix the issue while under warranty.
How does shooting RAW = pixel mapping in these cases? Because I've shot nothing but RAW with both the digital Leica bodies and have been forced to use an editing tool to remove them until they reached the point that they were too obvious to edit out.
Phil Forrest
If you give up on the M9, get an X100, it is a total game changer of a camera and if I can put 10,000++ frames through it in less than three months with no issues at all and even a members of Magnum (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=39045197) can use it, so can you...
Nice example of how a picture can be misleading. Koudelka who is holding the X100 said in interview for czech magazine Reflex (one of the august issues) that he received a digital camera as a gift, but for him it has large shutter lag to work in his typical style and he uses it for portraits only.
http://www.reflex.cz/clanek/placena-zona-archiv-hlavni-clanky/42862/co-nemam-to-nepotrebuju.html (it's in Czech and content is paid)
Phil_F_NM
09-02-2011, 21:40
aaaaaannnnnnnd today I got the runaway shutter twice and a shutter fault error. Turned the camera off the second time and even in the off state it was "dieseling" (like a badly timed hot engine still firing after the ignition is off) so I let it stop, removed the battery then replaced it and used it for the rest of the night but still felt like I was walking on eggshells.
The siren call of another film M is strong these days....
Phil Forrest
traveler_101
09-02-2011, 22:56
Like I've said, it's not just the pixel itself, it's the vertical line which is created in the camera along with the stuck pixel. It's very hard to correct for in a way that does not look obvious.
I've seen two additional M8 bodies that had to go back to Leica for this very reason since I last posted in this thread.
Phil Forrest
It seems to me that Leica has a problem then. You know, I have never come across a similar thread on the m43 forums where I also hang. It's just unbelievable to me that Leica wouldn't make this right--whether or not a warranty has expired.
Look, I paid $450.00 for my Olympus E-P1 (shortly after the E-P2 came out). If it goes bad, well then, I'm out a few hundred. It hasn't gone bad; indeed, I've had no trouble with what has turned out to be a nice, well built, well designed little camera. What do these electronic Leicas cost? Thousands of dollars don't they?
Anyone who invests that kind of money is entitled to some sort of guarantee that they are buying the finest product in the world.
The siren call of another film M is strong these days....I just bought a third film M and got my first roll back from it yesterday and the negs look good on the light box, so everything is working. I'll continue with the Fuji dSLR until someone produces a digital that I can use my Leica glass on. I don't know how you put up with it...
MCTuomey
09-03-2011, 06:10
I've owned 3 digital M's over the past 3 years. Just now had my first mishap - the M9 "low battery" display problem for which Leica recently posted notice. Leica USA indicates about a 2-week wait for repairs, fully under warranty. I find one service call in 3 years of use acceptable. The M8/9 file quality and the prints I have made from these files are sufficiently compelling for me to stay with digital Leicas, end of story.
My backup is a film M. Happy I have it right now. It would make a lot of sense for me to have a backup digi M, but I couldn't swing the funds. And I like the feel of shooting a film M anyway.
If I had Phil's experience, I would think differently. Frustration breeds contempt, and patience in regard to gear failures is somewhat uncommon among us gearheads.
MCTuomey
09-03-2011, 06:20
Fortunately the only problem with my M9 is the leatherette is peeling off and in the UK they can't even fix that but have to send it to Solms taking about 4+ weeks. Canon however managed a sensor clean on my 1Dsmk3 in 2 hours while I waited. None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me. Why did Leica close their UK service centre at Milton Keynes (Did they think their products never go wrong!) Leatherette aside the M9 is a delight!
The last sentence says a lot. That's why I think a lot of M9 users resign themselves to life with Leica service.
I don't understand why you'd compare a sensor cleaning to re-skinning a camera as the basis for judging service turnaround. Re Canon, I've shot with something like 12-13 Canon dSLRs over the last 7-8 years. Shutters have failed, AF has failed, stuff has happened. Service turnaround has always been about 2 weeks or so, door-to-door (Canon-Irvine US). That's why we buy backup cameras.
Phil_F_NM
09-03-2011, 14:19
As much as I've complained lately about the digital M bodies and will continue to do so, I've decided to keep them both, at least until the M9 warranty is up in another year. I need to get on Leica's professional service too.
I've been shooting a bit more lately with my 35 'Lux and 75/1.8 CV lens and the images are just too good for me to go with anything else. I can't get images that look this good from most films when scanned on my Nikon LS4000, so selling the digital M bodies would just be kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul when I finally invested in another digital system.
All that said, in spite of the frustration of the reliability of the 2 Leica digitals I've owned, they still are the best tools out there for normal range image making. I'm going to get a D2x for the telephoto work but I rarely need that kind of reach.
Regardless, I'm still sick of the Leicas' issues as well as the cold shoulder that Leica can turn to their faithful system users when it comes to service. If one pays as much for a digital camera as we do, we should get much better warranty treatment. Leaf does it and their 22mp digital backs don't cost much more than an M9 body. From what I've gleaned, they have incredible service and service policies (but the grass may be greener...) Anyway, Leica users deserve more service and a more reliable camera.
Phil Forrest
Tim Gray
09-03-2011, 14:56
I can't speak of the reliability issues, but in terms of service, I was much happier with Canon's service than Leica's. Much faster, much more affordable. The two time's I sent lenses in for work at Leica, the turn around time was around 6 weeks. Canon was a bit over 1 week.
Phil_F_NM
09-03-2011, 15:45
Mine were both out for several months and the way Leica treats service and communication is kind of like the way they treat product announcements; they are very tight lipped about updates then one day, all of a sudden the camera arrives back.
Canon service was amazing back in 2006 when I was shooting a Canon DSLR and dropped my 70-200 L lens on the front element right before a shoot. They had the lens back to me repaired with a 3 month warranty within a week.
Before that I was covered under Nikon's professional services which was an outstanding service, when I was shooting for the Navy. I called our Nikon representative from Iraq right after I got there in August, 2004 and had a problem with the camera not turning on under any circumstances. The Nikon rep said he could have a new D2H body FedEx'ed to our airbase in Kuwait within 24 hours. From there it would take upwards of a week to get to where I was a few hundred miles north. We solved the problem over the phone though and I didn't need a replacement. It turned out that it was "too hot" in Kuwait and Iraq for the D2H to reliably turn on so I had to keep it out of the sun until it got cooler in the fall months.
My film Leicas just kept on shooting in the heat with no problems at all.
Phil Forrest
Honest question here: is digital technology yet at the point where it is possible to guarantee zero hot pixels on a sensor? I know my Pentax has a "Pixel Mapping" option in the menus, which "corrects defective pixels" (presumably by turning off that pixel). Isn't this common on high-end cameras?
I've been shooting digital for my commercial work for thirteen years and have owned a Nikon D1,D1x, D100, Canon 1d, 1ds,1dsII, 20d, 2different digital Rebels and a Hasselblad CFV39 and never had a dead or hot pixel. Actually never had a repair related to a failure.
I recently devided to get a Panasonic G3 and had to return two cameras due to dozens of dead and stuck pixels. I gave up on the G3 and bought a Nikon D3100 ato carry on vacation. No dead or stuck pixels and much better images out of the D3100.
I would be really ticked too. This shouldnt happen with equipment that cost this much. Last year I was ready to buy a new M9'until started researching the assorted problems and decided to get the Hasselblad back.
Uif you don't want pixel defects the only way is to figure out how to avoid cosmic radiation, as that is the cause. For a number of technical reasons CCD sensors will be a bit more sensitive, but CMos is by no means immune. Professional users tend to regard pixel remapping as routine service.
I had some hot pixels the other day, the first. Very, very strange they were. I got maybe 10 or 12 on a couple of images but they weren't in the same place but were in sequence. Then they went away within the same shooting and haven't returned. It was like the sensor got bombarded. I have never had this happen before. None of my cameras, about 6 with me right now, have any hot pixels at the moment.
Phil_F_NM
09-03-2011, 17:07
x-ray: the cool thing about the backs offered for Hassy and Mamiya is that they aren't much more expensive than the Leica M9 and as far as I can see, Leaf offers a lifetime upgrade/warranty program for the original user. That's the kind of service we should be getting with Leica.
Jaapv: How come the Leica is so much more sensitive to cosmic radiation then? And why does this happen on certain batches and not others? Or some people have never had it happen and have owned an M9 since the day of release while others have had it happen several times? While cosmic radiation may be a cause, I think it's a red herring in this case or else I'd be seeing all sorts of stuck and hot pixels all the time. There are other causes of this sensor fault as well and apparently other sensor manufacturers have figured out a way to make their sensors, be they CCD or CMOS, less susceptible to it.
As for an earlier question you asked in the thread, us Leica users in the USA aren't offered a warranty upgrade for a fee nor are we eligible for one. I'd gladly pay for more time on my warranty but since I'm an American, my warranty runs out on 23 October, 2012.
The M8 doesn't have the firmware available for remapping of the sensor and so it has to be replaced. The M9 can be remapped, but how often? Sensible companies put remapping utilities in their firmware. Epson did it with the RD-1! It's 7 years later and Leica still can't get it right with their camera that costs almost 3x as much new! Oh well. So how often do I have to send the camera back to Leica and then wait for remapping? With the current workload of Leica NJ, I *might* get a whopping 7 months of shooting out of the camera before it has to go back to the factory. Absolutely unacceptable.
Only 7 days until we all get to see how much out of warranty repair on the M9 really costs!
Phil Forrest
Phil_F_NM
09-03-2011, 19:50
Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.
Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.
Phil Forrest
Phil_F_NM
09-03-2011, 20:14
Steve, it happened Friday night so I haven't contacted the shop about it. I will let Leica know about the shutter fault when I send it in. I need to keep it for another two weeks though at least for a fellow RFF member to really have a chance to walk around town to see if he wants to buy one.
It's still within warranty so don't doubt that I'm going to be on Leica, hounding them about these issues.
Phil Forrest
It is the only CCD in the 135 class cameras, digital backs will have the same incidence, only they are not taken in aircraft as often. You will find it mentioned in the M8/M9 manual too.-this subject has been rehashed dozens of times in the forums and is well documented, I won' t go there again. It is not occurring in batches. Think what you want to think, but your premisse is not covered by facts.x-ray: the cool thing about the backs offered for Hassy and Mamiya is that they aren't much more expensive than the Leica M9 and as far as I can see, Leaf offers a lifetime upgrade/warranty program for the original user. That's the kind of service we should be getting with Leica.
Jaapv: How come the Leica is so much more sensitive to cosmic radiation then? And why does this happen on certain batches and not others? Or some people have never had it happen and have owned an M9 since the day of release while others have had it happen several times? While cosmic radiation may be a cause, I think it's a red herring in this case or else I'd be seeing all sorts of stuck and hot pixels all the time. There are other causes of this sensor fault as well and apparently other sensor manufacturers have figured out a way to make their sensors, be they CCD or CMOS, less susceptible to it.
As for an earlier question you asked in the thread, us Leica users in the USA aren't offered a warranty upgrade for a fee nor are we eligible for one. I'd gladly pay for more time on my warranty but since I'm an American, my warranty runs out on 23 October, 2012.
The M8 doesn't have the firmware available for remapping of the sensor and so it has to be replaced. The M9 can be remapped, but how often? Sensible companies put remapping utilities in their firmware. Epson did it with the RD-1! It's 7 years later and Leica still can't get it right with their camera that costs almost 3x as much new! Oh well. So how often do I have to send the camera back to Leica and then wait for remapping? With the current workload of Leica NJ, I *might* get a whopping 7 months of shooting out of the camera before it has to go back to the factory. Absolutely unacceptable.
Only 7 days until we all get to see how much out of warranty repair on the M9 really costs!
Phil Forrest
Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.
Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.
Phil ForrestThe Leica shutter is supplied by Copal, as is the shutter of Canon and Nikon
In my experience Leica will extend courtesy repair out of guaranty in many cases.
Phil_F_NM
09-04-2011, 01:31
In my experience Leica will extend courtesy repair out of guaranty in many cases.
They didn't do that with my M8. Instead they charged me as much for the repair as a working user M2 would cost here on RFF.
While they state "Cosmic radiation (eg: on flights) can cause pixel defects." Neither of my digital M bodies has been on a flight or anywhere near the upper atmosphere before these pixel errors occurred. In fact, they haven't been past about 1000 feet above sea level so the atmosphere would help to attenuate the affect of cosmic radiation on my CCD. And cosmic radiation shouldn't cause permanent damage, it will cause a spike in a particular transistor or transistors which can appear as hot or dead pixels, yes but they won't be repeated like the problem I'm having.
It also appears that in manufacture of the CCD is where many hot, stuck or dead pixel errors occur. In my case, I have a stuck red pixel peaked at 255 in the left lower quadrant of the image, so the right upper quadrant of the sensor. This red pixel and occasional cyan line appear in every photo despite the signal excess of the photo site being reached or passed.
According to the ISO standard, most consumer electronic devices of this nature are allowed 2 dead, 2 hot or 5 stuck pixels or a combination of two per/megapixel. The old standard and new are slightly different but the numbers still remain the same. These are manufacturing defects, not ones from cosmic rays.
As for the batch issue, early Leica M8 cameras were plagued by it. Some M9 cameras have been affected, mostly with stuck pixels in one particular channel, usually red or green and they get sent to Leica for fixing.
Now, considering that my M9 has had two incidents of the same channel with the same line in the same quadrant (though a few hundred pixels away) within 6 months of each other wouldn't you consider that unacceptable? Every single M8 I have known the owner of has had to go back to Leica for hot pixel fixing. My old D2H never had a single faulty pixel and it had an LBCAST sensor, closer to a CCD than a CMOS. I took that camera up flying around the world twice and on numerous missions over the Pacific with the Navy. Not one faulty pixel. And that was 7 years ago.
This is a manufacturing defect and Leica knows it which is why they cover it under warranty. If they simply indemnified themselves with the cosmic radiation excuse, they wouldn't have to fix any cameras.
As for out of warranty repair, there is no such thing as an out of warranty Leica M9 right now. There will be in 6 more days though.
So, in summation, while cosmic rays may cause pixel defects, they shouldn't cause them with such frequency in the same camera. If it is in fact the case then Leica needs to get on board and do what other companies do, make the problem not appear to our eyes.
The problem is one of manufacture and the warranty service we get from Leica proves that. They did cover their backsides for 9/10/11 though by saying that cosmic radiation may cause pixel damage so they won't have to continue to service our cameras after the 2 year warranty is up.
Leica sensors exhibit stuck and hot pixels far too frequently.
Leica also needs to treat the customers of their top shelf cameras like they just bought a top shelf camera. With better warranty service, warranty period upgrade availability (which is not available to US customers) and more reliable products.
Can you pass on the secret of how to get out of warranty/guarantee service on a digital Leica to help save the rest of us some money?
Phil Forrest
None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me.
All Canon DLSR's (most of them consumer models, some 1-series) I have owned myself or used for at least a day have failed me resulting in lost shots and/or shot opportunities. Memory cards have also failed me resulting in lost shots, only when used with Canon DLSR's, though. These things happen.
I don't think Leicas problem is the sensor as much as it is design and execution of the camera. Hasselblad uses a Kodak sensor and hot and dead pixels are virtually non existent. I think Phase used some of the Kodak sensors without issues.
For those who have bought a new M8 & M9 you could have purchased a new Phase 1 camera, high mp back and lens or a new Hasselblad back or demo H4D 31mp camera and lens.
My feeling is Leica doesn't have the financial resources and design team to pull it off. My guess is they are farming the design out to a third party and Leica doesn't have the expertise to know good and bad in design. Just my guess. Whatever it is Leica isn't in the same class as even Canon and Nikon much less the MF makers. Again my opinion after using Leica for forty four years I'd they exist on name not quality and innovation.
Leica isn't the same company it was in the 60's and before. Mybequipment I bought in the 60's never gave problems but my most recent equipment has been less than stellar in reliability. Of all the gear I've owned and used heavily in my business over the fourcshd a half decades the least reliable was a pair of Rollei 3003's which were mechanical disasters and the nextis my late model Leica M lenses and body. Oh yes I would say a close 2nd to the Rollei equipment was my Leicaflex SL bodies. I had two regular SL's and a MOT. One or two were in the shop at all times.
I'd keep the film Leicas and buy a Nikon D700 for digital. OK, you'll need a complete set of Nikon lenses, but you can buy old MF lenses for peanuts.
This is exactly what I have done.
For any couples "wanting" film work (I may soon not even mention the word "film" and just show the images - the couples can decide for themselves) I have my M7s and Rolleiflex. For anyone wanting hard/fast digital stuff - I've got my D700s - I can't (after my M8 experience) go back to Leica digital right now even if I wanted to without selling all my Nikon gear to just get the money for an M9 body (and a half).
I honestly thought Leica had gotten their act together (per se) when they released the M9 - it's now well into its lifecycle and while I know that not every M9 (or M9P) has issues, I just need something, as Phil has said, that is a bit more reliable for the $7000 I'd be spending.
Cheers,
Dave
Phil_F_NM
09-04-2011, 08:56
I don't think Leicas problem is the sensor as much as it is design and execution of the camera. Hasselblad uses a Kodak sensor and hot and dead pixels are virtually non existent. I think Phase used some of the Kodak sensors without issues.
This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.
Regardless, it's just not right for Leica to be producing and selling such a product at such a price without taking care of the problem itself. We need more camera and service for the money we spend.
Leica can't ride the wave of their past service and reliability forever. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens in a few days after the first M9 warranties are up and how the successive M9 users are treated when they have to pay for repairs.
Phil Forrest
I think you'll see a flood of M9's as the warranties end. I also think you're right that Leica can't ride in past reputation forever. There are too many other digital alternatives for the same or less money without the issues. I've used Leica M's for forty four years and would have bought a digital version if I had felt it was reliable and the bugs had been worked out before hitting the market. For $7k I'm not about to become Leicas beta tester.
Archiver
09-04-2011, 15:17
The only issues I have had with the M9 were with taking a photo immediately during wake-up, and a shutter fault.
My M9 will occasionally take a black image if I try to press the shutter button all the way down when the camera is in sleep mode. If I hold the button down, the camera seems to wake up after a few seconds, but it only takes a black image. This does not happen under any other circumstance, so I make sure that I wake up the camera with a half-press before I take a photo.
The shutter fault was a bit of a surprise. At first it started to recock itself immediatley after taking a photo, even though I was in discreet mode. About ten images later, it locked up and I couldn't take any more photos. Everything else worked except for the shutter.
I took it to our local Leica techicians - Camera Clinic in Melbourne - and they told me that the recocking motor had become jammed, but they would need to replace the shutter mechanism to be sure. They unjammed the camera and gave it back to me, and when the new shutter arrived they replaced it. Not only that, but they cleaned it up and replaced the black tape I had on the engraving and red dot! Now that's service.
Since then my M9 has worked perfectly. I haven't had any experience with dead pixels (touch wood), despite having taken the M9 to Japan last year.
This is a malicious bashing post plain and simple. Leica will remap a sensor within a week without charge. And it is desinformation that other sensors do not have pixel loss.
This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.
Regardless, it's just not right for Leica to be producing and selling such a product at such a price without taking care of the problem itself. We need more camera and service for the money we spend.
Leica can't ride the wave of their past service and reliability forever. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens in a few days after the first M9 warranties are up and how the successive M9 users are treated when they have to pay for repairs.
Phil Forrest
Phil_F_NM
09-04-2011, 16:10
This is a malicious bashing post plain and simple. Leica will remap a sensor within a week without charge. And it is desinformation that other sensors do not have pixel loss.
Absolutely not! Have you had your Leica out for almost 3 months for this very error? I did. Almost all of them out here have been sent to Leica and have been away for well over a month.
I never said that other sensors do not have pixel problems. I don't use absolutes because there are always exceptions. What I'm saying is that the incident rate at which this problem affects the Leica digital cameras is unacceptable for their cost and lack of continued warranty support.
Perhaps it is different there in the Netherlands but here in the USA, Leica service is very slow. We aren't offered any warranty upgrades (aside from the M8u program.)
So again, I pose the question to you: could you please let the rest of us know how you get a Leica M8 or M9 stuck pixel fixed by Leica within a week? Further, could you let the rest of us know how you get extensions to your warranty? And how do you get service as a courtesy with an out of warranty M8or M9? You'd be helping out the whole Leica shooting community if you passed along this information.
Again, this is not a malicious thread at all, merely one that reiterates the truth about the reliability of some Leica cameras and the experiences that some of us have had with their service.
We all look forward to your reply!
Phil Forrest
No i have not. My M9 came down with a motherboard problem once and Leica immediately offered me a loaner M9 as they could not return it in a week due to lack of a spare part. And no, I am not a professional. And I have two M8s since 2006 and an M 9 since 2009 and close knowledge of six other digital M cameras in my family and with friends and I have never seen a pixel problem on any of them. One of the M 8s developed a shutter fault out of warranty. Leica returned it in a week without charge.
anthony_semone
09-04-2011, 16:28
well, since I'm a pretty old fart who's looking to purchase an M9, who doesn't have an endless stream of buckeroos ($US), I can say that this thread, at least to me, is absolutely NOT malicious bashing. Instead, it is and has been enormously helpful!. I've been over to the Leica forum and there is a whole thread devoted to reliability issues. So...
If I'm gonna plunk down $7k of my hard earned retirement income - irrespective of whether or not I sell my Nikon gear - I have the right to expect the thing to work straight away, out of the box, without issues, and to do it for at least as long as my refurbished D700 I got from Adorama, almost two years now w/o a single glitch. What? I have to transfer my pics to my computer first to ensure I don't lose my data, and then I've got to reformat the SD card in the camera???
I think I'll just get an Oly E-P3 LOL
tony
If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.
Phil_F_NM
09-04-2011, 16:34
Your good experience with Leica service on your digital cameras is not necessarily the norm. Our local Leica dealer here in Philly has had to send 3 M9 bodies back within a month (mine will be the fourth) for pixel issues. Mine also has the shutter issue.
I found my first glaring hot pixel in my M9 only a few days after I purchased it new from a Leica dealer and upon returning it, I was not offered a loaner camera. In fact, Leica billed me for shipping, so we may be talking about two different companies. What I've seen here in the states with Leica service is that they are unbelievably slow. They have had my M8 for 2 full months this week and that is for a CLA plus rangefinder recalibration. And the charge? $630 USD + shipping. Hardly a week, hardly courtesy. I still don't have it back and do not know when it will arrive.
Phil Forrest
anthony_semone
09-04-2011, 16:41
If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.
Cut me a break, sir. I've got an obscene $worth of Nikon gear. Nary a glitch; nada, zip, zero. Contax G2; second owner, nada, zip, zero.
literiter
09-04-2011, 17:00
Cut me a break, sir. I've got an obscene $worth of Nikon gear. Nary a glitch; nada, zip, zero. Contax G2; second owner, nada, zip, zero.
What you have said is true and just a little scary.
I don't shoot digital except for a little Canon G11 to send things over the internet. But all my friends do and four of them are busy professional wedding photographers.
Non of them report significant problems with Nikon or Canon DSLRS.
Then I see these reports of mayhem with expensive Leica gear and it gives me pause; We know there has been problems with this stuff from the M8 to the latest iteration of the M9.
Why buy the stuff?
Is it the Leica name?
Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?
Phil_F_NM
09-04-2011, 17:09
If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.
How about for us who can't just afford to go out and *try* a Leica M9 with our hard earned dollars.
You know why I'm mad about this all? Because I intend to USE these cameras for part of my living. I'm not rich at all. Come from a family in which I'm the first to go to college but the most recent in a line of military that goes back to the US Civil War. I live almost hand-to-mouth off the stipend that I get from the GI Bill and a bit of disability that I earned when out in Iraq in 2004.
So, as a faithful user of Leica film cameras, I decided to bet on Leica and tightened my belt so I could use both of these fine photographic tools for a future in documentary which I'm well on my way towards. I'm pissed that Leica's working faithful users have to put up with their delays, bad service and finally un-reliable gear when it may mean the difference between us eating and going hungry. This is not the place to bash my choice of tool. I chose them because they suit my style of work the best and that's that.
The cost of the used M8 + new M9 were about 6 full months worth of my stipend and disability. But I stuck through it in order to use the gear that I wanted to use. I tightened my belt, ate a lot of beans and rice over the last 2 years and through that all I get sycophants saying Leica can do no wrong and naysayers saying that Leicas aren't worth anything as working tools. Both point to me making a "wrong" decision but it's one that is mine that fits perfectly with what I intend to do.
Phil Forrest
anthony_semone
09-04-2011, 17:10
literiter,
+1 sir, and Phil, +10
Brian Sweeney
09-04-2011, 17:43
This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.
Phil Forrest
The Kodak DCS 14 and DCS SLR/N, and DCS SLR/C did not use Kodak CCD's. They used a CMOS sensor from a company bought out by Cypruss Semiconductor.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CYII4SM014K-EVAL-ND
and it looks like there is a Monochrome version of it. They used to sell for $6500 or so, for the Eval kit. Now you need to submit a request for a quote. All sensors will develop Hot Pixels. CMOS sensors have a lot of onboard processing, probably masks it out during the noise reduction phase of data acquisition.
Too funny, reading some of the threads in the Kodak DSLR forum at DPREVIEW,
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1026&thread=7373417
sounds like people complain about any brand that they buy. I remember the Nikon D1 and D2H Magenta Cast issue, and then the D2X color balance encryption uproar. Does anyone know if Nikon quit encrypting their files and hiding behind the Digital Millenium Copyright act to prevent other software makers from breaking the encryption? Nikon lost me as a customer when they pulled that nonsense.
...Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?
Those are the lenses in the first place. At the exception of some mechanic Ms, Leica bodies have never been more reliable than their competitors. But some photogs like Leica lenses so much that they/we use them manually on Japanese dSLRs and we accept the limitations of M8 or M9. Also the latters are the only digital rangefinders available, setting aside the discontinued R-D1.
literiter
09-04-2011, 18:57
Those are the lenses in the first place. At the exception of some mechanic Ms, Leica bodies have never been more reliable than their competitors. But some photogs like Leica lenses so much that they/we use them manually on Japanese dSLRs and we accept the limitations of M8 or M9. Also the latters are the only digital rangefinders available, setting aside the discontinued R-D1.
I have a M2 and a M4-P. They share a 35mm and 50mm Summicron which I use the most. The biggest advantage I have with these cameras would have to be no batteries, smallish and I have owned them for quite a few years.
The lenses are quite adequate and very small. Bonus! My Nikon F3 is a lot bigger and uses batteries.
Now for the most plebeian question; Why in heck can't I tell the difference between a picture taken with my ratty old Nikon and my Leica M2 both using 50mm lenses?
What you have said is true and just a little scary.
I don't shoot digital except for a little Canon G11 to send things over the internet. But all my friends do and four of them are busy professional wedding photographers.
Non of them report significant problems with Nikon or Canon DSLRS.
Then I see these reports of mayhem with expensive Leica gear and it gives me pause; We know there has been problems with this stuff from the M8 to the latest iteration of the M9.
Why buy the stuff?
Is it the Leica name?
Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?
I think when you buy into a niche product like Leica, you have to expect a slightly bumpy ride versus the well trodden path of Nikon, Canon etc. They don't have the budgets of the two giants for QA, R&D, or indeed nation/worldwide service centres.
We pay that price for the pleasure of use and ownership. I have a Lumix G1, it does not go wrong, ever, but it does not compare to the pleasure of using my Leica M3.
A Ferrari, Maserati, Noble, Caterham or Lamborghini will not have the reliability of a Toyota, Honda, Ford etc. but I know which I'd have, given the choice.
If I was a pro though, I wouldn't shoot Leica, not just because I would fear the reliability, but also because it's so expensive to get 1 or 2 more as backups.
Your good experience with Leica service on your digital cameras is not necessarily the norm. Our local Leica dealer here in Philly has had to send 3 M9 bodies back within a month (mine will be the fourth) for pixel issues. Mine also has the shutter issue.
I found my first glaring hot pixel in my M9 only a few days after I purchased it new from a Leica dealer and upon returning it, I was not offered a loaner camera. In fact, Leica billed me for shipping, so we may be talking about two different companies. What I've seen here in the states with Leica service is that they are unbelievably slow. They have had my M8 for 2 full months this week and that is for a CLA plus rangefinder recalibration. And the charge? $630 USD + shipping. Hardly a week, hardly courtesy. I still don't have it back and do not know when it will arrive.
Phil Forrest
As a matter of fact we are talking about two different companies. Leica Solms, whom I deal with is separate from Leica NJ. The service should be the same but sometimes seems not to be, although the USA Customs department appears to play havoc with the turnaround times as well. But anyway, if you use your cameras professionally you can register for pro service which entails a two-day turnaround and loaners - not a courtesy like in my case, but a right, and for us amateur lowlife there is the paid express service - see Leica's website.
Phil_F_NM
09-05-2011, 01:15
Regarding repair time, when you say it was a courtesy in your case, then the one week turnaround and the loaner camera does not apply for most Leica digital users?
If you know of a program which will allow us to extend our warranties, please pass that information along, as I've asked previously.
Regardless, the reliability and further, the service of these cameras needs to be improved for the price that we pay. I have 192 days of actual shooting with the M9 between the time that it returned from service and the pixel and shutter fault errors.
It's been great but it's absolutely unacceptable.
Phil Forrest
...Why in heck can't I tell the difference between a picture taken with my ratty old Nikon and my Leica M2 both using 50mm lenses?
Because you shoot film and/or black and white perhaps? With digital my Nikkor 50/1.8 & 50/1.4 look different from my Summicron & Summilux asph and pre-asph, at least in color.
Regarding repair time, when you say it was a courtesy in your case, then the one week turnaround and the loaner camera does not apply for most Leica digital users?
If you know of a program which will allow us to extend our warranties, please pass that information along, as I've asked previously.
Regardless, the reliability and further, the service of these cameras needs to be improved for the price that we pay. I have 192 days of actual shooting with the M9 between the time that it returned from service and the pixel and shutter fault errors.
It's been great but it's absolutely unacceptable.
Phil Forrest
Yes there is a warranty extension. A camera like yours with a major repair will be returned to you with a warranty of a year on the whole camera. Many users have sent in their M8 for maintenance just at the end of the two-year warranty period for this reason. Likewise for the upgrade of the M8 or the M9. It is possible to buy an extended warranty on an M9 without repair or upgrade (but with CLA). See Leica's website.
According to Leica Solms, the standard five day in-house turnaround (without shipping etc) on the M9 is attained in 85 % of the repairs.
I understand from my American friends that Leica NJ is improving dramatically.
Moriturii
09-05-2011, 01:38
We all know Leica is far from reliable, it's OK, nothing special. All the film bodies are minor evolutions from the M3, yet people pay twice the money for an M6 instead of an M4P (lol, that makes sense), but the Lenses are everything people have hyped about, not the camera bodies, so can we nip this in the bud now?
Roger Hicks
09-05-2011, 01:49
I have a M2 and a M4-P. They share a 35mm and 50mm Summicron which I use the most. The biggest advantage I have with these cameras would have to be no batteries, smallish and I have owned them for quite a few years.
The lenses are quite adequate and very small. Bonus! My Nikon F3 is a lot bigger and uses batteries.
Now for the most plebeian question; Why in heck can't I tell the difference between a picture taken with my ratty old Nikon and my Leica M2 both using 50mm lenses?
Because usually, at most apertures and with most subjects, with most films, the differences are trivial. In fact, you've prompted a new thread...
Edit: New thread here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110212
Cheers,
R.
literiter
09-05-2011, 06:36
Because you shoot film and/or black and white perhaps? With digital my Nikkor 50/1.8 & 50/1.4 look different from my Summicron & Summilux asph and pre-asph, at least in color.
I primarily used Kodachrome back when it was available and plentiful. The results were typical, and to my eyes identical, for my Nikon as well as my Leicas.
I tried Kodak's Tech Pan film as well a few times. I was surprised to note that the Nikon with the 50mm f1.4 was at least as sharp if not actually sharper than my (new at the time) 50mm Summicron.
I came away from these experiments with the notion that it all is really quite irrelevant; I can take just as a terrible shot with my Leicas as I can with my Nikons.
I believe today, as I notice many people are, that it really doesn't matter; Lens quality will not make a fine picture, but I might.
I came away from these experiments with the notion that it all is really quite irrelevant; I can take just as a terrible shot with my Leicas as I can with my Nikons.
I believe today, as I notice many people are, that it really doesn't matter; Lens quality will not make a fine picture, but I might.
Good comment, agreed! But you might generally enjoy using one type of camera more than another, somewhat depending on the task too.
I enjoy using my Pentax film cameras, but don't care for the user interface on my Pentax dSLRs. I also like to use my Leica M2, and equally well the M8 and M9 as they are relatively easy to handle.
One (used) M8 has been flawless. One dealer-demo M8 went to NJ with a sensor line, and the (used) M9 went later for sensor issues. The used cameras were bought from private parties, but Leica performed the service at no charge. Turnaround time for me, with shipping clear across the US, was a month. Sending a Pentax to Hendrickson for CLA takes the same..
Most of my M lenses have gone to DAG for coding and focus adjustment. Now that all this is sorted out, the Leica gear is running smoothly and I'm very pleased.
I do believe that Jaap is right about the magnifying effect of internet forums in seeming to show more and worse problems, out of proportion. Good news just doesn't travel as well as bad news! For those with bad experiences, I sympathize, wish you better luck, an urge good communication with service providers.
I have the dreaded vertical line. I've tried"Pixel Fixel" if you will. No such luck!
I can't wait to box up my M8 and send it to NJ so they can send me a nice juicy repair bill for known Leica problem.
Yippee!
I have the dreaded vertical line. I've tried"Pixel Fixel" if you will. No such luck!
I can't wait to box up my M8 and send it to NJ so they can send me a nice juicy repair bill for known Leica problem.
Yippee!
Think positive! My store demo M8 came without registration card, and only a 12-month store warranty. At 16 months I sent it in with that vertical line problem, and Leica fixed it at no charge.
If you contact your dealer, they will surely be helpful in handling the repair return for you. Or contact your importer directly. They will not give repair estimates before seeing the camera, but they will give you the go-ahead to send it in, and thus will be expecting it. Enclose a letter with a complete but concise description of the problem, and illustrations if you can. Help them help you... and good luck.
Edit: And here's a tip for fixing your affected photos with that vertical line... The idea is to eliminate that bad vertical column of one-pixel width. I worked on the full-res TIFF output of my RAW conversion software. With your TIFF displayed at 100%, locate that bad line. Select everything to the right of that line in your file and move it one pixel to the left, covering the bad line. At the M8 resolution you will not be able to detect the missing pixel column... the line will simply be gone from that image file.
Phil_F_NM
09-05-2011, 21:15
TR3B: I hear you. There is a member who posted earlier in the thread his cost in USD for a vertical line issue, I think. I want to say it's around $1300USD but could be mistaken. Here's hoping that it gets fixed at little or even better, no cost to you.
It's this vertical line thing that I hate. I could have a bunch of regular hot pixels and can map them in post but that vertical line is so hard to fix. Especially if I've got a large number of files to work with and it's in every one, each with different gradations in tone and color. I think it's impossible to automate its removal for bulk processing.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
Interesting factoid:
I noticed yesterday that my wife's Olympus P&S, an XZ1, has "sensor mapping" as a menu item.
dave lackey
09-06-2011, 04:15
Why is it that Doug has sent in his camera for a fix and it was done at no charge yet no one else can seem to find the same Leica NJ location and do the same thing?:angel:
Seriously. It doesn't make sense. I have never had a camera sent in for repair but if I did have a problem, damned if I wouldn't follow through immediately and have it fixed.
Looking forward to the outcome on these.
BTW, every Nikon DSLR I ever owned had hot pixels and some kind of crappy issue but I worked around them and eventually sold them all. Just never sent one in for repair.
Gabriel M.A.
09-06-2011, 05:08
...and kind of sick of digital as a result.
So, I just found ANOTHER hot pixel in my M9.
The first one I found was in the M8 a few months after I got it. I
dealt with it as long as possible but I had to have a digital
camera.
When I got the M9, I found the hot pixel 3 days after taking possession
of it. I then sent the M8 out for repair and almost 3 months later, it
came back in better condition.
I understand your frustration, but it makes me think about the guy who had a horse-drawn coach and bought a horseless carriage just because everybody else was doing it. No need to pick up manure, maintain a stable, feed the horse...but...but! The horseless carriage wouldn't stop at his whistles (awful design flaw) and the food (the hipsters called it "gasoline") couldn't be handled while he smoked his pipe. Shame on Benz!
Anyhoo...
http://webpages.charter.net/bbiggers/DCExperiments/html/hot_pixel_facts.html
http://www.mediachance.com/digicam/hotpixels.htm
http://nzdigital.blogspot.com/2008/03/canon-5d-and-hot-pixels.html
etc.
:pWhy is it that Doug has sent in his camera for a fix and it was done at no charge yet no one else can seem to find the same Leica NJ location and do the same thing?:angel:
Seriously. It doesn't make sense. I have never had a camera sent in for repair but if I did have a problem, damned if I wouldn't follow through immediately and have it fixed.
Looking forward to the outcome on these.
BTW, every Nikon DSLR I ever owned had hot pixels and some kind of crappy issue but I worked around them and eventually sold them all. Just never sent one in for repair.
Shame on you for talking common sense on an Internet forum!:mad::p
dave lackey
09-06-2011, 05:28
:p
Shame on you for talking common sense on an Internet forum!:mad::p
Ooops...my mistake.:p
dave lackey
09-06-2011, 05:30
Steve, the shutter fault camera is an M9. It's the one I've been complaining about since it is going back to Leica for a stuck hot pixel that is really annoying.
Newest firmware updated the day after it came out a few months ago.
Patrickjames: I've got a Leica M9, an M8 an M4 and I'll have a D2x in a few months so I'll be set on backups. I love the pro-level Nikons and have a few year's experience with them so the d2x will serve me very well in spite of it not being the most current. It's still one of the best DSLRs available, and these days they are available for cheap. Nikon still services them in case I need it. And they are quick and much cheaper than Leica service usually.
Phil Forrest
Loved my D2X almost as much as the D2h...but expect hot pixels with it too.;) The cool thing about the D2x is the purchase price now is around $800!!!
Phil_F_NM
09-06-2011, 05:34
I think one of the issues is that Leica seems to pick and choose who it charges for sensor remapping / replacement and who it serves gratis.
Phil Forrest
anthony_semone
09-06-2011, 06:44
hmmm, in our family there have been the following camera bodies: Pentax k10D x2: no hot pixels. Pentax k20D: no hot pixels; Canon 40D: no hot pixels. Olympus E-3 and E-P2: no hot pixels; Nikon D80, D300x2, and D700: no hot pixels. My son's D700, D90, and Lumix 3 (whatever it is): no hot pixels. My other son's k10D, and his Oly 520: no hot pixels. Not only no pixel issues, no issues of any kind whatsoever: none, nada, zip, zero.
Each camera has enjoyed a rough minimum of 6 months use, and, where resold, subsequent purchaser, save for one gentleman who was trying to get 100ISO performance out of Max ISO for a K10D, never reported an issue to me. Most of our gear has enjoyed multiple years of continuous use.
So, as a context for the purchase of an M9, that's the history out of which we expect any such high-end-cost piece of gear to operate. And to have the apparent service variability for defects, that is flat-arse unacceptable in my view.
dave lackey
09-06-2011, 07:18
I had the D80, D90 and the D300 at work that I used everyday. All three had hot pixels.
The old saying is, "You pays yer money and you takes yer chances.".
Rick Waldroup
09-06-2011, 07:33
I shot a Nikon D1x and D2H for years. The D2H had a hot pixel and also the dreaded "blank shot" when you first turned it on. But I never sent it in for repairs. Other than that, those cameras were warhorses. I used them for work and I literally beat them all to hell but they kept right on working. Great cameras.
I can certainly understand the OP's frustration with his Leica, especially for what they cost. The only Leica I ever owned was an M5 many, many years ago.
literiter
09-06-2011, 08:21
I wonder if there is or could be, an app for Photoshop called "Leica Glass".
You would take your shot on a conventional camera then reform the image to have the appearance of the more revered Leica image.
Just saying...I mean if you can see it you can copy it, right?
There could be something to evoke:
-Prewar Elmar with fungus.
-Prewar Summitar with separation.
-Summicron with haze.
-Pre aspherical, aspherical and post aspherical
-Digital Leica
-Film Leica
-Leicas with sparkly bits on the sensor
-etc.
I'd buy it, but I'm poor so I wouldn't pay more than $100.00.
I had a Pentax *istD that I purchased used in 2004. it developed hot pixels. this year. 7 years, and well over half a million shutter actuations and that is still the only fault it has ever exhibited.
I shot a Nikon D1x and D2H for years. The D2H had a hot pixel and also the dreaded "blank shot" when you first turned it on. But I never sent it in for repairs. Other than that, those cameras were warhorses. I used them for work and I literally beat them all to hell but they kept right on working. Great cameras.
I can certainly understand the OP's frustration with his Leica, especially for what they cost. The only Leica I ever owned was an M5 many, many years ago.
Forgot about the d2h blank frame thing mine had that, it was very annoying if you hadn't used the camera for a while and wanted to make a quick grab shot!
I think with hot pixels its better not looking for them as nine out of ten you will find one or two. My first professional camera a Canon 1dmk1 cost £4000 and had a nice big red hot pixel right in the middle of the sensor.
Okay folks- here's the deal:
Thomas Comerford in Ireland who has PixelFixer helped me get set up on the software and I can run a folder of roughly 200 M8 raws in about 30 seconds.... Red line fixed.
My take is:
I am poor as hell but gambled $2200 on a low mileage M8 last march with 1500 clicks that showed no vertical line issues. Recent high iso and including some very underexposed 160 iso shots revealed the problem.
I came so close to sending it in for repair but balked at giving Leica a single dime for an issue that I feel they should cover, (free of charge) on each and every M8 and M9 out there, barring none. Ever heard of the mirror fix on a Canon 5D, regardless of owner or proof of purchase. There was no guarantee Leica was going to fix my camera without charge and in fact many posts have alluded to the contrary.
My intent is to keep the M8 and shoot the crap out of it because I love the files and the rangefinder experience. I;m sure the time will come when the camera needs some real attention, then I will send it in as some have suggested.
Hell I was thinking that at some point Leica will make an announcement that due to the high number of inquiries that they have elected to provide a fix to there valued customers, free of charge and at that point I'll have the "Purple People" pick it up.
I strongly suggest anyone who has a vertical line issue, to give PixelFixer a try... its free and the support was shockingly personal, unlike what others have said about someone else.
See Ya!
Okay folks- here's the deal:
Thomas Comerford in Ireland who has PixelFixer helped me get set up on the software and I can run a folder of roughly 200 M8 raws in about 30 seconds.... Red line fixed.
My take is:
I am poor as hell but gambled $2200 on a low mileage M8 last march with 1500 clicks that showed no vertical line issues. Recent high iso and including some very underexposed 160 iso shots revealed the problem.
I came so close to sending it in for repair but balked at giving Leica a single dime for an issue that I feel they should cover, (free of charge) on each and every M8 and M9 out there, barring none. Ever heard of the mirror fix on a Canon 5D, regardless of owner or proof of purchase. There was no guarantee Leica was going to fix my camera without charge and in fact many posts have alluded to the contrary.
My intent is to keep the M8 and shoot the crap out of it because I love the files and the rangefinder experience. I;m sure the time will come when the camera needs some real attention, then I will send it in as some have suggested.
Hell I was thinking that at some point Leica will make an announcement that due to the high number of inquiries that they have elected to provide a fix to there valued customers, free of charge and at that point I'll have the "Purple People" pick it up.
I strongly suggest anyone who has a vertical line issue, to give PixelFixer a try... its free and the support was shockingly personal, unlike what others have said about someone else.
See Ya!
Thanks for the link and the info!
It will solve the problem for many users.
I'm sure Leica will be flattered at being held responsible for cosmic radiation.:rolleyes: In the future I will hold Jaguar to account for a flat tyre....
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