View Full Version : RFF Software Upgrade?
CameraQuest
06-07-2011, 18:57
We are considering the possibility of upgrading / changing the RFF software.
That is not as simple as I would like, since upgrading to the current version of vBulletin is probably not the best choice.
So..
What forum software choices would be good for RFF? why?
Just as important,
what software to implement on the back end for the classifieds and gallery so that it all works together well?
Stephen
I am not too tech savvy, but I like the current format where the most recent threads are viewable on the homepage (unlike DPR & FM, but like APUG).
Chris101
06-07-2011, 19:21
Hi Stephen,
I have worked with several forum software bases, as an admin, moderator and user. phpBB and Simple Machines Forum were nice for small fora, but the size of RFF would kill them. The only two that I feel are sufficiently robust, and stable, have been vB 3.8.6 (a "minor" upgrade from RFF's 3.6.8, but not the current major upgrade to 4.0) and InvisionPower Suite 2.x. Both are quite nice, but I find the control and interface of vB to be better than IP.
In large-scale forum software there doesn't seem to be much choice.
How many hits per minute does RFF generate? It might be easier to move RFF over to a full-fledged community CMS (like Drupal) with good optimization and a good forum module, and implement classifieds, gallery etc. within that CMS rather than as third-party add-ons.
Gabriel M.A.
06-08-2011, 04:14
One key question you'll need to ask: would the new software allow seamless (or near-seamless) database migration?
I remember when about four or five years ago there was an upgrade, and lots of info was lost: comments, posts, technical data in the gallery, bookmarks...it was all shrugged off with a "just do it all over again". And given that the gallery is a pain in ze @ss to redo (also given the posting limits), and the one reason to keep bookmarks is so that you don't go hunting the threads again, a seamless database migration will just be a Very Bad Idea™
Not to mention the W/NW forum: lots of time and energy invested by the RFF community in there.
Pickett Wilson
06-08-2011, 04:30
Wish I could help. I've used VB and Photopost for a long time, but VB has gone completely astray. Upgrade/maintenance have become a burden, and bugs abound.
In the CMS world, Joomla is going to same route, it seems. Drupal is probably the best way to go right now, but that's not an out-of-the-box solution.
willie_901
06-08-2011, 06:56
Stephen,
I applaud your courage in considering this sort of major change. I know from personal experience this sort of upgrade consumes significant resources. However I also know that an upgrade has to be done.
Thanks for RFF... and I wish you the best of luck with the upgrade.
Dunno IF anyone suggested it. But the format of i think VB Publishing suite with plugins and customizations seen on PentaxForums is working ok.
I think that there would be members willing to donate to the cause, myself included.
I like PUNBB which the manualfocusforum use. It's very lightweight software and has minimal functionality. But its clean and simple.
Then for the gallery you could use GALLERY
and a piece of classifieds software.
Problems happen when you try and integrate all this stuff into one piece of software. There is really no need to do that except auto generating accounts in the gallery and classifieds as people sign up to PUNBB which is simple to do.
But as has already been pointed out, the conversion of data is the most time consuming.
note: PUNBB allows no image uploading. But that is not a problem IMO as most people hot link thread images from flickr or other image gallery anyway or they can add them to the gallery and hot link from there.
Then don't modify the core code from any of the packages which makes upgrading a simple task. (accept for auto generating accounts in gallery and classifieds when signing upto PUNBB)
You would lose some of the functionality of VBulletin but have a much simpler code base to maintain and optimisation of databases from each package can be done spearately.
The only query I would have with that is how well PUNBB would handle 1.5M posts. Perhaps finding an implementation that has that many and talking to them might give a better insight than I can give.
I like PUNBB which the manualfocusforum use. It's very lightweight software and has minimal functionality. But its clean and simple.
Then for the gallery you could use GALLERY
and a piece of classifieds software.
Problems happen when you try and integrate all this stuff into one piece of software. There is really no need to do that except auto generating accounts in the gallery and classifieds as people sign up to PUNBB which is simple to do.
But as has already been pointed out, the conversion of data is the most time consuming.
note: PUNBB allows no image uploading. But that is not a problem IMO as most people hot link thread images from flickr or other image gallery anyway or they can add them to the gallery and hot link from there.
Then don't modify the core code from any of the packages which makes upgrading a simple task. (accept for auto generating accounts in gallery and classifieds when signing upto PUNBB)
You would lose some of the functionality of VBulletin but have a much simpler code base to maintain and optimisation of databases from each package can be done spearately.
I don't think that's a good idea. After all if you want to have a site with classifieds and a gallery, interaction between them isn't limited to account creation. If you want a common login (as in log into the forum and be logged into the classifieds), you'll need to change more than just the account creation script. If you want to send messages from the classifieds through the forum system, you'll need to adapt the classifieds somehow. And so on.
I think if you want a forum with classifieds and a gallery, it's best to start with a system that gives you all that, rather than to hack together three systems and hope that they remain both interoperable and maintainable. I guess a CMS would really be the best solution both in terms of flexibility and maintainability, but as Pickett Wilson said it's not out-of-the-box.
I don't think that's a good idea. After all if you want to have a site with classifieds and a gallery, interaction between them isn't limited to account creation. If you want a common login (as in log into the forum and be logged into the classifieds), you'll need to change more than just the account creation script. If you want to send messages from the classifieds through the forum system, you'll need to adapt the classifieds somehow. And so on.
I think if you want a forum with classifieds and a gallery, it's best to start with a system that gives you all that, rather than to hack together three systems and hope that they remain both interoperable and maintainable. I guess a CMS would really be the best solution both in terms of flexibility and maintainability, but as Pickett Wilson said it's not out-of-the-box.
I don't see the logins as an issue. You need cookies switched on and once logged in to all three you can flip between any of them without a problem. So its a once only situation unless you clear your cookies.
The classifieds would have its own messaging system, why would it need to send messages to the forum? That's just complication for the sake of complication which leads to the situation we have now.
And the gallery is the same.
Sure all this inter relationship can be coded but I question the need for it and the complexity it creates.
And as for Drupal, if you can find someone prepared to put the time and effort into it and produce something that can be upgraded with future releases if necessary then fine. But somehow I don't think that will happen.
mervynyan
06-08-2011, 07:40
If it aren't broke, don't fix it. just a thought.
I don't see the logins as an issue. You need cookies switched on and once logged in to all three you can flip between any of them without a problem. So its a once only situation unless you clear your cookies. [...]
The classifieds would have its own messaging system, why would it need to send messages to the forum?
Because I don't want to have three different PM inboxes and login windows? :angel:
I agree with you about having to find someone to set up a CMS, but then I don't think finding someone to continually maintain and update three different pieces of software and hope that they don't break is going to be much easier.
I'd like the classifieds just being another thread (or threads). Would bypass the limited image sizes, avoid bogging down RFF with having to host the images, and be searchable by most recent first with ability to thread subscribe to only what you're interested in, e.g. MF or 35mm and not have to see everything all the time.
Because I don't want to have three different PM inboxes and login windows? :angel:
I agree with you about having to find someone to set up a CMS, but then I don't think finding someone to continually maintain and update three different pieces of software and hope that they don't break is going to be much easier.
Software doesn't break. Its either right or wrong. Breaking happens when you try and extend functionality by installing or modifying existing software.
If it ain't broke don't try and fix it. The combined maintenance on those three packages would be minimal and if anyone of them does get broken the other two continue to work normally. And fixing one of them would likely be simpler than fixing one combined package.
and you can do upgrades or mods to any of them (if you must) without fear of breaking the other two.
I'd like the classifieds just being another thread (or threads). Would bypass the limited image sizes, avoid bogging down RFF with having to host the images, and be searchable by most recent first with ability to thread subscribe to only what you're interested in, e.g. MF or 35mm and not have to see everything all the time.
+That and maybe make only a special group of users be able to post new threads to that area like at a 10$ cost per 30 days and at the end of that period you just stop being a member of the group or so.Something the GetDpi forums have in place for their print selling section :). Would be cheaper and less system consuming, could lead to possibly a larger turnaround on the site probably in the end making it more popular for other photogs also.
I don't know if you checked out the ranking site for discussion groups.
http://rankings.big-boards.com/
Might give some insight into what other high-traffic boards are using and doing.
Just a thought and gooood luck. This is a huge decision.
I don't know if you checked out the ranking site for discussion groups.
http://rankings.big-boards.com/
Might give some insight into what other high-traffic boards are using and doing.
Just a thought and gooood luck. This is a huge decision.
I don't think there is any correlation between top of the forum rankings and/or best forum software. The rankings are more to do with what the forum is about I think.
I only found one PUNBB forum in that list which, purely by chance, has roughly the same amount of posts in it as RFF.
PUNBB is like a Rangefinder. It has only the things that are essential to running a forum. Like a RISC processor built for speed without any resource consuming fancy bits. But if you want fancy bits then its not for you.
Software doesn't break.
After being the manager responsible for the operation of some major CMS driven web sites: Nope, they do break, in terms of security relevant bugs becoming public and exploited - and in that case you'll have to fix them ASAP, which is a major PITA if you modified the software to the point where you cannot install security patches any more.
After being the manager responsible for the operation of some major CMS driven web sites: Nope, they do break, in terms of security relevant bugs becoming public and exploited - and in that case you'll have to fix them ASAP, which is a major PITA if you modified the software to the point where you cannot install security patches any more.
Well thats the difference between you and me. You perceive the useless security protection as something which can be broken whereas as I see it as bad programming which is a gaping hole for anyone to dive into. So why was software with gaping holes installed in the first place? Obvious really, the people writing it and installing it got it WRONG. It didn't break, it was wrong when it was installed and before it went live.
digitalintrigue
06-08-2011, 12:21
The first question I have is: what does RFF need that the current software doesn't offer or can't do (or do well?)
If only it was that simple. All software has unexpected bugs, it is the nature of the beast. So I guess it all breaks.
I have been involved with building database driven sites since Netscape was released -- there are unexpected bugs in even the more "right" software. And yes additions can produce unexpected bugs.
But software has to be modified and updated to work with new browsers, server software, and security concerns, and most of all increased loads. So new bugs are always a fact of life.
Unexpected bugs as you put it, exist solely because incompetant developers, testers or managers didn't do their job properly. And this is very prevelant in the web industry because so many people are self taught and never worked in a professional software development environment where everything is tested to death.
"New bugs" are a fact of incompetance and/or lack of proper testing. Laziness and cluelessness. It's inexcusable, especially with statements like "The software has broken". No it didn't. Its always been like that. Someone used it in a way we hadn't thought of so we didn't program to cater for it. But admitting that might make someone look a fool so better to claim the software broke. Problem is that saying that to people in the know makes them look an even bigger one.
I don't think there is any correlation between top of the forum rankings and/or best forum software. The rankings are more to do with what the forum is about I think.
I only found one PUNBB forum in that list which, purely by chance, has roughly the same amount of posts in it as RFF.
PUNBB is like a Rangefinder. It has only the things that are essential to running a forum. Like a RISC processor built for speed without any resource consuming fancy bits. But if you want fancy bits then its not for you.
Actually the site rank quantitatively, which may be a good indicator the software's scalability and maybe reliability.
Many of those top sites use the same software as RFF.
I'm just sayin'
rogerzilla
06-08-2011, 12:51
I run a forum with c.2500 users and a similar posting rate to this. We use SMF (version 1; 2 is still in beta). I can't say it's any better than this.
Hosting makes a big difference. We changed from free hosting to renting our own server (physical, not virtual) from 1and1 in Germany. This means we could install our own OS and tweak everything for the best performance.
One thing we do that SMF wouldn't recommend - we never archive old posts, so everything is available online. There are about a million in the database now.
Actually the site rank quantitatively, which may be a good indicator the software's scalability and maybe reliability.
Many of those top sites use the same software as RFF.
I'm just sayin'
I think the real question here is what is going to be easily manageable for the forum webmasters who may be doing this as a hobby and don't have the time or inclination to get into heavy coding and/or maintenance.
I would go latest version of vBulletin, and cut out all customizations and deviations from standard software, even if it means dropping galleries etc. only that way there is future upgrade path for the site. going to totally another forum software is expensive biz.
I would go latest version of vBulletin, and cut out all customizations and deviations from standard software, even if it means dropping galleries etc. only that way there is future upgrade path for the site. going to totally another forum software is expensive biz.
Expensive in time yes but both PHPBB and PUNBB software is free I think.
It's really funny to see analog diehards arguing about new digital technology. A conflict of identities lol!
Humans are falible. Sure some software is worse -- but no amount of testing can ever find all possible bugs.
Sadly we live in a world where many financial and other critical institutions believe what you believe -- that it is possible to build applications without bugs, applications which cannot be successfully attacked -- if only they spend enough money and hire the best people, and test and test.
But it has been proven over and over again that some self-taught kid can bring important professionally written applications down.
The concept of creating anything perfect is a human conceit.
I know software has bugs. But if you look at it you find that the cleverer the programmer tries to be the buggier the software turns out to be. That is because they bite off more than they can chew. Then they try and pass it off as only to be expected. Well actually it's not to be expected. Keep it simple and try not to make it a triumph of style over substance and result is you get far more stable and secure software. Get fancy to bolster your programming ego and you come undone. The conceit is thinking you have been clever by writing a fancy piece of software which is actually a security hole.
David Murphy
06-08-2011, 14:48
My main request would be to keep the current site available for use and as a temporary fallback site in case there are problems with the upgrade, i.e. don't go off line to do the upgrade - install, test, and develop it offline as much as possible before going "live".
charjohncarter
06-08-2011, 14:52
Dunno IF anyone suggested it. But the format of i think VB Publishing suite with plugins and customizations seen on PentaxForums is working ok.
I think that there would be members willing to donate to the cause, myself included.
I like the Pentax Forum too, and I'm not a tech guy but I would make a donation.
I just noticed that manaulfocus.org forum is running in debug mode and is giving transaction generated times at the bottom of every page.
Mods here might want to make a comparison with the times RFF gave yesterday when debugging was switched on.
Whether the difference is coding, size of database, poorly maintained indexes, slow database server or just plain slow server I don't know but manualfocus.org is generating its pages about 10 times faster than RFF.
But that doesn't explain the much longer long delays than the generation time shows on RFF.
Jamie Pillers
06-08-2011, 22:34
Hi Stephen,
While you all are looking at possibly changing the software, it'd be appreciated if someone there could look at this problem of mine (and others here as well I believe). Whenever I try to look at one of the REALLY LONG threads like "Let's see your Leica M" or "Cameras and Coffee", I get this message whether I'm using a Mac or PC computer:
Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 24117 bytes) in /home/rff/public_html/forums/showthread.php on line 1232
Thanks for any help.
shadowfox
06-09-2011, 09:09
Stephen,
Go through the 10 questions here:
http://www.forum-software.org/ten-questions-guide-to-choose-the-best-forum-software
and let us know what it suggested based on your answers.
How many years have you worked as a software architect?
Nothing of what you are saying has any parallel in why I find software bugs in the apps I debug or work with.
A lot more years than you.
Just for fun I ran the RFF home page and the todays posts page through an html checker.
"Home" page has 156 errors and "todays posts" page has 110 errors.
Now these are standards errors and not necessarily logic erros but I'm not going to spend time checking them all out. But it is indicative of software being written by people who just don't give a stuff about what they produce and don't test properly. And that gets passed off as "you have to expect errors". I repeat, No. If one my programmers passed code like that off as complete and ready to go live he wouldn't last very long.
And thats just the html which is the easy bit. What about all the javascript and server side php and mysql code and apache handlers etc.
Any system is only as secure the people who have access to it and any person can become disaffected with their lot in life and do the unexpected. Which loosely translated means no system is secure whether it be software or anything else.
Nearly all of the RFF errors are just sloppy coding but won't cause actual problems. Wrong dtd I think or not coding to the dtd used. But that isn't the point. The point is that no one cared enough to do what is so easily checkable and fixable. And that is the web for you. Mostly created by throwing together code from many sources without knowing or cheking that any of it is robust.
And that is the web for you. Mostly created by throwing together code from many sources without knowing or cheking that any of it is robust.
And that's what I see as the basic problem with the initial proposal of throwing together several different pieces of software to create essentially several different sites, while hacking together some glue logic so that you can use the same password with all three.
And that's what I see as the basic problem with the initial proposal of throwing together several different pieces of software to create essentially several different sites, while hacking together some glue logic so that you can use the same password with all three.
there's a difference between integrating software into another piece of software and just building a simple account creation routine so I think we'll have to disagree on this one.
Red Robin
06-09-2011, 20:28
I'm a newbee when it comes to this tech stuff but I must say the current form seems to work well for my needs. You folks seem to have made good choices so far. Keep up the good work. I know it ain't easy running this thing.
Just wanted to say it seems to work pretty well for me even with all the errors. I haven't had too many problems, but it seems to me the site ran really well up to about a year ago. Then it seemed like there were glitchings here and there occasionally, I don't know. There was a forum I used to frequent that switched their software when I wasn't looking, I came back and it was unusable, so ugly. Best luck.
And that's what I see as the basic problem with the initial proposal of throwing together several different pieces of software to create essentially several different sites, while hacking together some glue logic so that you can use the same password with all three.there's a difference between integrating software into another piece of software and just building a simple account creation routine so I think we'll have to disagree on this one.
That's how it all starts.
And then a simple routine that changes your password in the classifieds system when you change it in the forum system.
And then a simple routine that shows you when logging into the forum system whether you have new PM's in the classifieds system.
And then a simple routine that lets you send PM's from the forum through the classifieds, because the forum system (in the case of PunBB) doesn't contain a PM function in the first place and the classifieds are the only way to provide the newly proposed RFF with PM capability at all.
And a few dozen simple routines later you end up with a bunch of tacked-on unmaintainable stuff, the way we do now.
I don't think that's what I would recommend to anyone maintaining a site with 35,000 users. The software may be free, but only if your time is worth nothing.
My advice to Stephen is to hire professionals to assess the problems and develop a plan to resolve them. Throwing the question out to the forum public is not likely to be the path to a sound decision; crowdsourcing has its uses, but this isn't one of them. The wide range of solutions and troubleshooting presented in the thread should make that clear - upgrade VB, switch to Simple Machines, no custom coding, switch all the parts and then custom code to integrate them, go with a content delivery network, run traceroute, clear the cache.... All these suggestions are well intended, but following them prior to methodical troubleshooting is not likely to result in resolving the real problem and could create even worse ones.
A good professional will not make suggestions to start changing things to "see what happens" or that you throw out the forum's base software. The whole site is not broken, it is just slow - painfully slow- right? A good pro would focus on that and would have access to the specifics of your server, code, and all configuration settings, rather than just the public site.
Here is a cautionary tale from the owner of a larger site than this one, who chose to have a forum member "fix" the site rather than hire the right resources. In the end he hired the pros and it cost a lot more to fix the "fixes". http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1010715/0
This is great site with great functionality, it is worth spending some money to address the problems while leaving the good stuff alone.
From your link; "I sent him a lengthy email explaining in detail the problems with the code and even compensated him $3000 for his time." Most people doing personal web sites are offering money which is too low to attract high end developers.
Yes, you have to pay for quality - like with cameras!
Personally I think the RFF is doing pretty well considering its budget and audience. Right now is just a hiccup.
That is my point - no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater - the site features are great, just pay to have a pro diagnose and the fix what ails it.
eric rose
06-10-2011, 15:42
Hire Sean from APUG to do your upgrade. He's a vbulliten guru.
Hi Stephen,
While you all are looking at possibly changing the software, it'd be appreciated if someone there could look at this problem of mine (and others here as well I believe). Whenever I try to look at one of the REALLY LONG threads like "Let's see your Leica M" or "Cameras and Coffee", I get this message whether I'm using a Mac or PC computer:
Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 24117 bytes) in /home/rff/public_html/forums/showthread.php on line 1232
Thanks for any help.
That is caused by the PHP memory_limit which defaults to 32MB being exceeded. Each script only gets that much to run in. On a server with many concurrent users memory can be an issue so whilst upping the limit might solve that problem it can also cause other problems. That is something for server admin to look at. i.e. whether it can safely be raised or whether the server needs more memory for it to be safely raised. But either way 32MB is a lot for a script to be using although the max value for it is 128MB.
I've never seen the VBulletin code so don't know how it handles output buffering. However the delays I get are usually partial page loads and then a delay so it could be a problem with output_buffering. Upping the php.ini value output_buffering from the default of 4096 may be worth trying together with setting the memory_limit to 64MB. ( One at a time. )
A quick look shows 278 users online at this time. 278*32MB is nearly 9GB of memory if they were all using 32MB. Many older web server boxes don't have that much memory or that much allocation if on a shared or cloud setup.
Just sayin as its something else to look at.
Another thing which can happen and consumes a lot of server resources are rss feeds. Installing tapatalk could have notified various other sites about RFF which are constantly requesting RSS feeds. Server logs should show this.
Just sayin as another thing to check on the list.
Just got a lot faster.
Spoke too soon....
Spoke too soon....
But the again it sppeeded up again. Performance is up and down like whores drawers.:D
definitely running at decent speed now.
I'm inclined to think its primarily a server resource/speed problem which can sped up with more and larger memory allocations with more tuning. Maybe a faster box.
But if you do decide to change forum software then here's a PUNBB forum with 6 million posts for speed comparison.
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/
Searches there are taking only one tenth the time that RFF does.
Wooohooo. 24 hours of normality. :)
LeicaFan
06-14-2011, 14:09
I just noticed that the sidebar that used to contain the Classifieds section is now missing. I'm not sure if that was causing the site to run slowly, but it is now running MUCH faster for me.
Good observation. Should only be visible on home page.
Woo hoo!
Not having the sidebar in threads, or in the gallery I noticed, is a great idea. So far the galley seems to be very snappy compared to what it's been like of late!
:) :) :)
Woo hoo!
Not having the sidebar in threads, or in the gallery I noticed, is a great idea.
:) :) :)
Yes, you've been able to switch it off from the quick links (menu in Iskin) for as long as I can remember. Maybe it's forced now.
back to original question.
If you are still considering changing software, I notice that the gallery and the classifieds are from a third party anyway and they are only bridged to VBulletin. And they come supplied with bridges to other forums anyway. So depending on what is consuming all the server resources and if its primarily VBulletin, then it would make sense to keep the gallery and classifieds and just change forum software of which there are many to choose from.
A bridge to PUNBB should be simple to build since the classifieds and gallery already have some inbuilt processing for precisely that. Asking Photopost if its already been done for PUNBB might give a few pointers or go with one of the forums they already bridge to.
Just sayin because that means you only have to migrate forum posts and not gallery and classifieds data although there mey be an unload and load to do for those but databse structure should remain unchanged.....
But I still rekon the problem is really server resources and tuning rather than the software itself even if it isn't the fastest software.
JayGannon
06-15-2011, 13:00
back to original question.
If you are still considering changing software, I notice that the gallery and the classifieds are from a third party anyway and they are only bridged to VBulletin. And they come supplied with bridges to other forums anyway. So depending on what is consuming all the server resources and if its primarily VBulletin, then it would make sense to keep the gallery and classifieds and just change forum software of which there are many to choose from.
A bridge to PUNBB should be simple to build since the classifieds and gallery already have some inbuilt processing for precisely that. Asking Photopost if its already been done for PUNBB might give a few pointers or go with one of the forums they already bridge to.
Just sayin because that means you only have to migrate forum posts and not gallery and classifieds data although there mey be an unload and load to do for those but databse structure should remain unchanged.....
But I still rekon the problem is really server resources and tuning rather than the software itself even if it isn't the fastest software.
PUNBB does not scale well, its not suitable for a site of this size.
Port the site to a fresh Vbulletin Install that has been built form the ground up for scabality, otherwise no matter what drection you go your going to be disapointed.
PUNBB does not scale well, its not suitable for a site of this size.
Port the site to a fresh Vbulletin Install that has been built form the ground up for scabality, otherwise no matter what drection you go your going to be disapointed.
I think you are wrong. All the punbb sites I have looked at which are showing page generation times are doing it in a tenth the time that RFF is doing it. And that includes a site with 6 million posts, 4 times the size of RFF. But it is not just the page build times that count. It's also the servers ability to dish up the plate. As I've said, I think the real problem with RFF is the server speed and resources available. i.e. processor spec, available memory and possibly storage speed.
The page build time of 0.2 and up is slow in computing terms but acceptable if the server is not under load. It's on the edge.
to moderators. If you are looking for a way to reduce server load I would suggest a test at removing the code which provides the little down arrow link to the first new post in each thread. That's the one next to the thread title on the far left in the list of threads in a forum or in the list of todays posts. I think that one will be being recalculated every time you view the list when you are logged in and there are 25 on every page. (guess work on my part but worth a test ).
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86976&d=1308188646
86976
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