View Full Version : How do I go about buying an MP?
secksthoi
05-17-2011, 22:36
I've been really wanting to get into a Leica M system and will seriously start saving up for one in hopes to buy it right after I graduate from college at the end of the year. The MP is just screams perfection, as Leica's last film M, can be bought new, and black paint! But my only concern is prices seem to keep going up and even if I had the money and then some, there is no stock! :bang:
Once I have saved enough, how do I go about buying this camera? I guess I wouldn't mind putting myself on the list (if you can even call it that) through B&H or whatever, but what if they contact me with availability and I am not ready to buy?! Lose my spot? Any tips out there for those who have bought new? Thanks!
I prefer to consider it Leica's most recent film M, not necessarily the last...
If you don't have the money, I doubt there is that much need to be on a waiting list, and also MPs are not *that* rare that you will wait years for one to turn up.
Prices are on the rise, but they are unlikely to keep on going forever.
If you really are desperate, you could consider a credit deal, but I really would wait for the GAS to wear off before you consider doing that.
A new MP is a lot of money, and the value drops a lot on the second hand market, but if you're planning on having it for the rest of your life, then that need not matter.
secksthoi
05-18-2011, 00:40
No, no credit deal. I avoid that bull at all cost. ;)
And yes I assure you, it is a crap load of gas pent up, but i'll manage.. and I know it's not THAT rare, cuz I can always go Leica dealers I guess, but I really plan to buy online to uhmm avoid the tax... I'm a college student.. that many pennies from taxes coulda went toward a lens.. :P
Moriturii
05-18-2011, 00:55
I say go out in the woods, meditate, get rid of your inner, sort of, attracted-to-the-latest-and-the-best-for-no-reason demons, come back home, buy an M2 and you will be as happy as your former self would've been with a 10x more expensive MP. Good idea isn't it? Just shake it off, shake it off. Good luck!
Q: How does one buy an MP?
A: You use money to buy it. Did you not mention you went to college?
Edit: The MP is the finest instrument known to man. If you can get away with purchasing one, then most definitely do so and never sell it.
SimonSawSunlight
05-18-2011, 01:14
have you used Ms before? have you had the chance to compare the MP to other models? if you're that short on money, you might find that the MP really doesn't offer you much more (nothing, if you ask me, but I agree that it looks good) than most other Ms especially with regards to the big extra you'll be paying. remember you need a good lens to make the camera worthwhile at all and those don't come cheap either.
SimonSawSunlight
05-18-2011, 01:28
ps: I don't mean to start a discussion about what M is best for the price, just saying you might want to hold and try one before you spend most of your savings on it. if you have, ignore that part. :D
Roger Hicks
05-18-2011, 01:28
I don't think there's a waitiing list, unless demand for M9s has been so high that they've not made MPs in a long time and run out of stock, so it shouldn't be a problem (apart from the price).
As the owner of an M2, M4-P and MP, and ex-owner of M3s, I'd argue that the MP simply is better: low-flare finder, meter and usable 75mm frames, quite apart from being very pretty in black paint.
EDIT: I'd also be inclined to buy from a dealer, for the 'hand holding' in case anything goes wrong. It's (relatively) cheap peace of mind.
Cheers,
R.
I will throw my hat into the crowd suggesting that you consider a used camera. I would also suggest you contact Leica dealers, in addition to the big boys like B&H, as you may be surprised what they may have on hand. Popflash who is a sponsor of RFF, Tamarkin... just to name a couple here in the US (assuming you are in the US). You will perhaps pay a little more (though with the prices on ebay recently I don't know that that is true anymore) and you will be dealing with a knowledgable businessman who knows what he is selling and cares for his reputation. When I bought my first M6 I called a number of dealers and the impression I took from that experience is that I would do business with any one of them without a concern. All helpful and all focused on my questions and wants, not what they had in stock and wanted to sell. Good luck, use your GAS to do some serious window shopping and learning and enjoy whatever camera you buy.
I am using Leicas since 1963 and still have nine M-types. I would only say don't tear yourself to save a lot, go buy yourself a good M2 and use the rest of your resources for lenses, film and to travel...
^ good suggestion. Get a used M (M6 does 99% what an MP does, and is equally beautiful), lens and spend the money on a looooong trip around the world
I am using Leicas since 1963 and still have nine M-types. I would only say don't tear yourself to save a lot, go buy yourself a good M2 and use the rest of your resources for lenses, film and to travel...
nobbylon
05-18-2011, 08:50
^ good suggestion. Get a used M (M6 does 99% what an MP does, and is equally beautiful), lens and spend the money on a looooong trip around the world
Agreed, save your money and get an M6.
anu L ogy
05-18-2011, 09:16
Plus 1 for resisting the urge.
I was in your boat a few years ago. I saved my money for a more expensive purchase, then I saw a .58 black M6 for 899. I bought it, upgraded the finder and havent looked back :)
jsrockit
05-18-2011, 09:21
EDIT: I'd also be inclined to buy from a dealer, for the 'hand holding' in case anything goes wrong. It's (relatively) cheap peace of mind.
I never agreed with this until I bought the M9... then it made a lot of sense. Roger's right, the MP is in that category. That said, it doesn't have to be a local dealer, just a good Authorized Leica dealer.
Do not forget KEH if you come to your senses and shop the used market.
When you do come to your senses, the M5 is the best thing ever to come from Wetzler. Where ALL good Leicas came from. An M5 is at least 110% of an MP. Grinning.
wjlapier
05-18-2011, 09:40
I'll be a bit different and suggest an ala carte MP ( or M7 ). Make it your own and keep it forever. Ala carte M's have risen is price since I bought mine. Use the configuration site and see how much they are now.
huntjump
05-18-2011, 10:59
Another here to save your money and get an m2, m3 , m4-p or m6 + glass
One thing to avoid: Putting off Leica M camera ownership for several decades as I did. Wrong! When you have the cash in had to buy a good, working, user M camera & 1 lens, DO IT! The lens may be anything that works. Canon & Nikkor LTM lenses come to mind.
If you find an almost decent M3-M2-M4-M5, Youxin Ye will make the first 3 perfect for little cash. Sherry Krauter will make the M5 perfect for a few dollars more.
Point to remember: Just Do It!
secksthoi
05-18-2011, 11:13
Thanks for all the great advice, people! Especially to BobYIL.. since I do plan to travel after I'm done with school, which is exactly why I wanted an M with me when I go about!
I am using Leicas since 1963 and still have nine M-types. I would only say don't tear yourself to save a lot, go buy yourself a good M2 and use the rest of your resources for lenses, film and to travel...
And to the user who recommended an a la carte.. I actually was looking at that. With the MP black paint, classic engraving, and classic vulcanite it came to 5,665usd..... :rolleyes:
marcr1230
05-18-2011, 11:21
Leica has a student discount offer going on usually
If I recall you can get a 20% discount thru a dealer
...it came to 5,665usd..... :rolleyes:
:eek:
Or..................
Spread that money over 1 camera, 2-3 lenses, film, and travel expenses.
Your photography will be greatly enhanced by the second plan.
Steve Bellayr
05-18-2011, 13:54
I agree with above: Get an M6 and put the money into M lenses which are rising quicker than M cameras and will be work on the M9.
Colin Corneau
05-18-2011, 13:55
The MP would indeed be fun, but common sense says money spent on first-rate lenses is wiser.
Having an MP with inferior glass is like having a Bugati with bald tires.
I've used various Leica Ms since 1983 and the last was an MP. I recently sold it as I'm moving away from film to digital. My advise to you is this: don't do it for several reasons:
A used M6 will do nicely. The build quality of the MP is at best marginally better but definitely not worth the extra 4 $K. With the exception of a TTL meter, the camera is basically unchanged since 1953. The M5 is their best built body with a TTL meter. It also has the most sensitive semi-spot ever incorporated into a 35 mm camera with the possible exception of the late long discontinued Contarex cameras.
Any Wetzlar M body prior to the M4-2 has a better build quality, just ask knowledgeble repair people like DAG or Sherry Krauter. The MP may seem perfect but can still malfunction partly due to corner cutting from Leica as with the frame counter mechanism. This is not something you want to encounter if you've spent a ton of money. In Leica defense, at least they give a generous warranty period with a new camera but mine didn't malfunction until after the warranty expired.
kemal_mumcu
05-18-2011, 14:15
Why does it always come down to dollars and cents? How can you put value on something like an MP that you'll own for the rest of your life. And people say that an M6 is better? You can't buy new M6s. Anyway, if the OP want's to buy an MP I say go for it. We only live once, get the best Camera that Leica makes...
There'll be a thousand other ways to waste thousands upon thousands of dollars later on in life. An MP for a film/camera purist is not a waste of money.
Dont forget that the camera body is just a box, with a finder, shutter and a lens mount. What takes the actual picture is the lens!
The MP is nice, but not any better at this than the M6/M6TTL/M4P/M2 etc. A $5000+ Mp is ludicrous in my opinion. You can pick up a M6, a back-up M2 and a couple of lenses for that and still have enough for a bag full of film. I have MP's, M6's, M4P's and M3's and a lot of M2's. Probably 85% of my "shooting" is done with M2's! The flashing diodes on the M6/MP always bugs me - particular in low light - your eye is drawn to them and you loose concentration.
Yes, the MP comes from the factory with a slighter smoother advance than the M6 - but nothing that a couple of 100 rolls through the M6 wont cure. I bought my MP 0.58 when it was marginally more expensive than a M6TTL - and I had to replace the seal around the ocular as it sucked in dust and the filmpressure plate spring is a bit dodgy and keeps coming loose. Otherwise it works fine - but not any better than my M6's and M6 TTL's.
Spend the money on the lenses you want rather than the body. A $1000 M6 with a good lens will work better than a MP with a mediocre lens. Or just buy a couple of M2's, a 35 and a 50 mm lens and possibly a wide lens (21/25) and a good handheld meter and the aforementioned film. One rule that I always stick too - NEVER go on a trip with just one camera body - doesn't matter how good it is - Murphy's Law applies and it will develop some problem during that trip and leave you stranded. Later on when you join the rat-race of the working stiff's - you can add a MP to the stash for considerably less than a new MP is today! Leica prices always go up and down, sell on the up and buy on the down.
You also have the advantage today of a huge choice of "glass" from other manufacturers - and make no mistake - some of the lenses from Zeiss, VC and Konica put some Leica lenses to shame - and in the end it is what you do with the "box" and the "glass" that counts, not what it says on top of the camera body or the front ring of the lens.
have you used Ms before? have you had the chance to compare the MP to other models? if you're that short on money, you might find that the MP really doesn't offer you much more (nothing, if you ask me, but I agree that it looks good) than most other Ms especially with regards to the big extra you'll be paying. remember you need a good lens to make the camera worthwhile at all and those don't come cheap either.
I agree. The M3 might be the pinnacle, although I am doubtless risking destruction here by saying that. Opinions vary. But Simon's point is a good one. Any M body that is mechanically in good shape will do, and he's right about the lens cost, as my bank account knows.
Have fun.
jbielikowski
05-18-2011, 14:45
Just change your thinking, you need Real M not New M, ergo you want to buy M3 in mint cond. with 50/2 rigid Cron and use it to the end of your life.
What takes the actual picture is the lens!
I'd like to believe that it's the photographer that actually takes the picture :D
A bit biased by the MP as the "box" though - it has a very different feel than other makes and models.
andredossantos
05-18-2011, 14:48
Add me to those who suggest getting a nice user M instead of an MP. With the cash you save you can get one or two nice pieces of glass (50mm Summicron and 35mm f1.2 Nokton would be a SWEET starter kit).
Those two lense plus a M2, M4, M4-P, M5, or M6 could probably be had for the price of a new MP. I know an MP is a totally gorgeous camera but in terms of utility the money is best spent elsewhere.
BTW, I agree with Venchka. I recently got an M5 and it's my favorite M out of all the models Ive used (M2, M3, M4-P)
mervynyan
05-18-2011, 15:53
I had traded few old Ms and Contax G2 but decided to bite the bullet and get brand new black paint MP, 35, 75 lenses in 2007 at slightly discounted price from an oversea dealer, it was $7,500 all-in blood-letting at the time. I couldn't be happier ever since. Never feel the urge to look at other cameras again, never feel the need to upgrade. A thousand rolls later, it still surprises me when the negatives came out.
You could game the camera but looking at alternatives, but you will never stop thinking about it. So if money is a short, cut back other expenses like coffee and dinning, share the rent with a mate, work at starbucks etc, the harder you work to get it, the more enjoyable when it finally arrived.
huntjump
05-18-2011, 16:51
If you are planning on traveling, even more reason not to spend $5600. I almost took my nice gear on my world trip, and luckily i didnt. My hotel was broken into and my Nikon d40 was stolen. I couldnt care less about the camera, but my photos on the SD card were taken. Very sad. Trust me traveling with an M2 is so much smarter than traveling with an MP in other countries. In some places, that would literally be a couple years salary. Not to say thieves will know the difference, but they will steal anything and if your fortures run out, best they steal a $750 camera vs $5000+
Unless you are very wealthy, i dont see why a student whose never owned an M would need the flagship film body.
Just because it can be bought new, the MP is not Leica's film "flagship".
M3 and M6 are the most successful Ms, in terms of production numbers and use - by a far margin.
Just depends how you look at it :)
Or think about it this way: I like the look, etc, of a 911 Turbo. But I would never buy one and drive it, would seem very waistful and risky to corner a US 150k car at max. performance. Because sh*t happens.
No idea about your finances. But as a rule of thumb, I suggest to only buy a camera if you can easily replace it when it breaks or is lost. Ideally use two, so (a) you can shoot with two, (b) you have a replacement when the camera needs service.
Just my 2 cents.
huntjump
05-18-2011, 17:01
Just because it can be bought new, the MP is not Leica's film "flagship".
M3 and M6 are the most successful Ms, in terms of production numbers and use - by a far margin.
Just depends how you look at it :)
No idea about your finances. But as a rule of thumb, I suggest to only buy a camera if you can easily replace it when it breaks or is lost. Ideally use two, so (a) you can shoot with two, (b) you have a replacement when the camera needs service.
Just my 2 cents.
Flagship does not imply new, the definition of flagship generally means "most expensive" of the line/series of products. In this case, the MP is the most expensive production body M (film body)
From http://www.merriam-webster.com, flag·ship: the finest, largest, or most important one of a series ...
Whatever. Keep calling the MP like that and the OP will order one tomorrow.
From http://www.merriam-webster.com, flag·ship: the finest, largest, or most important one of a series ...
Whatever. Keep calling the MP like that and the OP will order one tomorrow.
This backs up part of Venchka's argument for the M5! :D
huntjump
05-18-2011, 17:13
From http://www.merriam-webster.com, flag·ship: the finest, largest, or most important one of a series ...
Whatever. Keep calling the MP like that and the OP will order one tomorrow.
I dunno why you are being a hard ass about it. You're the one who said "just because it is new doesn't make it a "flagship". I can point you to another definition of flagship lol. Anyway, I clearly stated my opinion on why he shoudn't buy it, but the decision is really his.
And i actually agree with you about the other bodies. Anyway, carry on. I hope you get the camera that suits YOU best OP. good luck!
huntjump
05-18-2011, 17:15
This backs up part of Venchka's argument for the M5! :D
haha keith. I enjoy the humor down under
Chris101
05-18-2011, 17:41
Hey secksthoi, (... heh) I hope you eventually get your MP.
secksthoi
05-18-2011, 17:49
WOW I am overwhelmed with this much great advice, on both sides! Thank you, thank you.. I still have plenty of time to ponder, but keep it coming!
secksthoi
05-18-2011, 17:52
I should also add that I know that the photographer and the glass makes the most difference, which I have not ruled out the Zeiss 35mm Biogon f/2! Those make BEAUTIFUL images.. (envy)
secksthoi
05-18-2011, 17:53
Hey secksthoi, (... heh) I hope you eventually get your MP.
Thanks for getting my humor. :rolleyes:
Tim Gray
05-18-2011, 18:14
I'd love to get a new MP, a new M7, AND a new M9. Those a la carte models are tempting. But you if you really want an MP (or an M7), you really can get a model that is more or less new on the used market for 40-50% of the retail price. You could get an M7 and an MP, most likely with their stickers still on them, for the price of a new MP. Or a used MP and a *nice* lens of your choice, or several ZM/CV/older Leica lenses.
I think I might get a used camera. Oh wait, I did. :D
bobby_novatron
05-18-2011, 19:30
Damn, I'm with Tom on this one. You could get a really decent M6 and a couple great lenses + reams of film, and still have money left over for traveling.
If there is any improvement on getting an MP over an M6, it has to be incremental.
Which makes the most sense?
Approx. $1400 for an EX+ condition M6, or $5600 for an MP?
Definitely not the MP, especially for a student who's just starting out and might have trouble shouldering the financial burden of such an expense.
I mean seriously -- a $4200 premium for an MP over an M6? How much better can it be? For that price, it better give you Pulitzer prize-winning photos with every roll! :)
"MP a camera for the rest of the life time" ... I always get curious about this statement. The amount of sold used Leica MP cameras is quite high ... ;)
I would get some M Leica (pretty any model will do), one good lens and start taking photos. That can be pretty easily done in the $1000 range and for the rest of the money (difference to a new MP + adequate quality lens) you can travel and use that camera. :)
BillBingham2
05-18-2011, 20:10
There is something wonderful about buying a new M, I loved my M4-P and M6. But when I look at the price of a couple of Nikon SPs and all the glass I could ever need when I started I could just kick myself for not going that way. I would have saved a LOT of money. Not in buying the new Ms, they were at a reasonable price compared to where new Ms are, but in all the other paths I’ve taken between now and then.
Everyone needs to find their way down the path of discovery. The relative cost of the MP is way higher than I would have ever thought of plunking down. When I got my Leica Ms new the Internet was not as full of info and options on great used stuff as it is today. There are lots of great Leicas out there and after a CLA trip to Sherry or Don will work even smoother than an MP. You can buy good an M2 and M3, get them painted and CLAed by the best and still have money left over for some world class glass.
B2
alan davus
05-18-2011, 20:38
If a camera is just a light tight box as some have suggested, buy a new Bessa at a fraction of the cost. Don't waste your time getting a 50 year old body (the darling of the hair shirt brigade) which is tantamount to driving a decades old Morris Minor (no heater, no aircon, no power brakes or power steering etc). How many new cars will you buy in your life time and at what cost? Guarantee they'll all end up on the scrap heap long before an MP. Buy it without regrets.
Once I have saved enough, how do I go about buying this camera?
1. Bend over
2. Hope perfection is mechanical perfection
3. Roll dice
4a. Even- Precious is good to go for many years. Wipe CLA from your memory banks.
4b. Odd- Precious needs servicing cause tolerances are too tight. Bummer. See #1.
Save the Cash for Great Glass!
Mark
Quito, Ecuador
At the top of the page Kemal Mumcu says that you can't buy a new M6. That is not strictly accurate: mint or new M6s crop up steadily on German Ebay and obviously even the "Buy Now" prices are well below the price of a new MP. A new M6 must be worth consideration. I just managed to pick up an absolutely mint M6 from a German shop for 999 Euros. The bargains are out there.
cosmonaut
05-19-2011, 01:14
Well, I think a MP would be a great graduation present to yourself after working so hard to get through college. But I would only get one if I could afford some nice glass to go with it. I think we all know that the true secret to great pictures.
I have a M6 and enjoy it very much. Also a M3. You will probably enjoy having a meter in the long run. So I would say go for the M6 if you were going to have to cut back on the glass to swing for the MP.
Archiver
05-19-2011, 01:50
Just because it can be bought new, the MP is not Leica's film "flagship".
M3 and M6 are the most successful Ms, in terms of production numbers and use - by a far margin.
I'm not sure if production numbers and use are the best measures of a camera's 'success', given that the M3 and M6 were produced over a longer period of time; when digital cameras were not available; when Leica M's were the epitome of the compact, silent film camera; and when film M's were the mainstay of Leica's business.
Sure, they've made a lot more M3's and M6's. But that was long before digital cameras and the dwindling popularity of film.
I'll bet that if you measure M9 sales against M9 production, it would be the most successful Leica camera at the moment. I'll bet they sell every single one they make within weeks, if not days of it hitting a dealer. If mint and 'new' M6's regularly turn up on German ebay, that might say something about how many were made vs. how many were sold in a timely manner.
Would sure love to get a mint M6 for a nice price!
And to the OP: I don't know how extensively you've shot with a Leica M before, but you need to consider that manual rangefinder shooting might not be for you. I had an absolutely frustrating month of learning new habits when I got my M9, and there were times when I questioned whether I did the right thing.
But I will say that using Leica M's has been one of the most fulfilling parts of my photography so far. There is nothing like the balance in your hand, the soft snick of the shutter, and the smooth stroke of the wind lever. The stripped down nature of the cameras makes you think, and paradoxically simplifies matters.
The price of a MP will buy you a M6 in excellent condition, plus a couple of great lenses. You'll get Leica build quality and experience in a much more economic form. And if you get the viewfinder upgraded to the MP style, you'll still only spend a much lesser amount, which can be put into travel.
This is my experience, so take it as it is. I once saw the most gorgeous looking mint chrome MP in my local dealer. I played with it for about ten minutes, maybe more, and it just didn't do it for me. I don't know what it was, something about the balance and the way it felt in my hand. The shutter didn't sound that good, either. But somehow, about a year later, I handled a M7 and it felt so good. Perhaps because I had already been shooting with a M9 for six months beforehand, but for whatever reason, the M7 just felt better.
If you are able, go to secondhand dealers and handle as many of these cameras as you can. Wind the levers, focus the lenses, click the shutters. I think you need to feel them for yourself before you make any real decisions. Good luck!
steveyork
05-19-2011, 04:18
Remember, most of these posts are just opinions. Much of the internet chatter in "Leica Land" is just that -- chatter. And because few of us have the heart (because Leicas are so expensive) to go out and purchase and use and come to our own conclusions based on experience, we listen, and we read.
With Leicas you go with the right side of the brain, not left. It has nothing to do with logic. It's all about heart. Ask yourself: What camera turns you on at an emotional level?
Folks are correct when they say the lens takes the picture. But I can understand someone who wants to put good money into the body. After all, the camera stays in your hand all the time and lenses change. For this reason, there always seems to be more of an emotional connection with the body, as opposed to the lens. And a lot of these guys who are telling you to get a so-so body with a great lens have a dozen m cameras on their shelves.
But you probably won't be happy unless you have a good lens to go with the good body. Fortunately, as already noted, zeiss and voightlander provide suitable, less expensive options.
And here's my opinion: Buy used, unless you're getting a digital M. Leicas are just too expensive now days. And there's no guarantee that a couple years from now you'll still be digging the same camera. Creative people tend to get bored easily. That's one reason why many of us have a bunch of cameras in the house. The point is that if you purchase used, you can turn around and resell and probably recapture much of your money. The same is likely not true if you purchase new, unless you hold onto the camera for a longer period of time. I don't the same crazy price increases we have seen from Leica continuing.
steveyork
05-19-2011, 04:24
Plus 1 for resisting the urge.
I wouldn't say resist as much as be cautious. We are at a high tide mark in Leica prices. I expect them to modulate lower some day, but there's a chance they won't due to increase demand (e.g., from China).
steveyork
05-19-2011, 04:26
Agreed, save your money and get an M6.
I disagree. If you want an MP, then an M6 isn't going to do anything for you. It's the same with the M3-M2-M4 compared to an M6. Sure, an M6 can just as good pictures, but if we're using that logic then why even shoot a Leica?
steveyork
05-19-2011, 04:33
...the in-camera meter is very annoying, especially in low light situations when you get a red haze with which to contend ;) A good M3/2/4 runs as smooth or smoother than a MP in my experience.....
It's good advice to also consider the old classics (M3-M2-M4) when thinking about purchasing an MP. After all, part of the appeal of the MP is that it looks like those old cameras.
But the clarity of the modern rangefinder is noticeably better then the old cameras, even those that received a CLA. I'm thinking about my own M4 here. I've never used an M2 or M3.
I've never had a problem with the meter inside an M6 or MP being distracting. Never even fathomed that it would be a problem, until I read about it here. Tom A. also mentions it in this thread, but he's from Canada too. It must be the water up there. :)
steveyork
05-19-2011, 04:42
A used M6 will do nicely. The build quality of the MP is at best marginally ....
Any Wetzlar M body prior to the M4-2 has a better build quality, just ask knowledgeble repair people like DAG or Sherry Krauter.
When the MP came out back in '03 there was a lot of chatter and specifications about how the MP was much more robust then the M6. I forget the particulars, but people were pointing to specifics. And although I love Sherry and respect DAG, I doubt either has worked on more then a handful of MPs.
The fact is that either an MP or M6 will likely last a lifetime. They are both solidly built, as are most m cameras. I've probably put 700-1000 rolls in my MP since '03 and it's just humming along fine. No problems.
The recently acquired M4 I have (with a new CLA) is no more smooth; in fact, I feel the MP is more smooth -- but that means nothing.
steveyork
05-19-2011, 04:43
Check out Bergan County Camera. They have a used (0.85) MP. Expensive, but fairly priced in today's market. I've seen pics. It's a custom job.
The MP has a different material for the shutter brakes (a new bronze alloy compared to the M6TTL), improved machinig of the grears (felt smoothness) and a different rewind system (knob instead of crank). These are the only major differences, regarding "much more robust". The MP has however a more sophisticated RF system compared to the M6TTL and an again improved metercircuit (contactless adjustment of the meter EEPROM).
When the MP came out back in '03 there was a lot of chatter and specifications about how the MP was much more robust then the M6. I forget the particulars, but people were pointing to specifics. And although I love Sherry and respect DAG, I doubt either has worked on more then a handful of MPs.
The fact is that either an MP or M6 will likely last a lifetime. They are both solidly built, as are most m cameras. I've probably put 700-1000 rolls in my MP since '03 and it's just humming along fine. No problems.
The recently acquired M4 I have (with a new CLA) is no more smooth; in fact, I feel the MP is more smooth -- but that means nothing.
Jamie123
05-19-2011, 04:55
I've never owned any Leica M camera so I can't really comment on which one of them is better. I can only say what I would do if I were in your shoes. Instead of waiting until the end of the year to spend a lot of money for a camera that you may or may not like, why not buy a used camera you can afford right now? The good thing about used cameras is they usually don't depreciate much if you get one at a decent price to begin with. You could buy an M2 or M6 (or whatever M) right now, use it and keep saving up for an MP. If, by the time you have the money, you still feel like you want a new MP you can just sell the camera you have and put the money towards the new one.
kemal_mumcu
05-19-2011, 07:22
At the top of the page Kemal Mumcu says that you can't buy a new M6. That is not strictly accurate: mint or new M6s crop up steadily on German Ebay and obviously even the "Buy Now" prices are well below the price of a new MP. A new M6 must be worth consideration. I just managed to pick up an absolutely mint M6 from a German shop for 999 Euros. The bargains are out there.
I know there are "old" new M6s that come up for sale. I just meant current production from Leica. Leica did improve the M6 with the M7 and the MP and so the M6 is not the latest or best from Leica.
I'm only trying to point out that value is not necessarily something that one can work out on a calculator. I know that used Leicas are a better buy. I bought an M2 over 3 years ago and have never regretted that purchase. It was exactly what I needed. But I wanted an MP but did not have the money for it then nor now. I do not regret my M2 but if I ever get the chance to buy an MP I'll most likely go for it.
If the OP has the money and wants the MP then he should buy what he wants. Sure, it might be irrational in the calculator sense and sure he might make do with mediocre glass for a year or two but one needs to follow the leading of the heart sometimes. Even if it doesn't always make economic sense.
I bought a brand new MP (black paint version) in late 2004 with Leicavit and a 50/2 after selling off most of my other camera gear. I got the .85 because I wanted the closest thing to a brand new M3. It was a graduation present after completing my Masters degree. I have never regretted it.
Only in the last 9 months have I wondered about another lens. I have tried both the CV 35/2.5 & 35/1.7 and now the 35/1.2. All lenses have been great, but the 1.2 seems very interesting...
Roger Hicks
05-19-2011, 07:48
I know there are "old" new M6s that come up for sale. I just meant current production from Leica. Leica did improve the M6 with the M7 and the MP and so the M6 is not the latest or best from Leica.
I'm only trying to point out that value is not necessarily something that one can work out on a calculator. I know that used Leicas are a better buy. I bought an M2 over 3 years ago and have never regretted that purchase. It was exactly what I needed. But I wanted an MP but did not have the money for it then nor now. I do not regret my M2 but if I ever get the chance to buy an MP I'll most likely go for it.
If the OP has the money and wants the MP then he should buy what he wants. Sure, it might be irrational in the calculator sense and sure he might make do with mediocre glass for a year or two but one needs to follow the leading of the heart sometimes. Even if it doesn't always make economic sense.
Dear Kemal,
I fear that you and I are as voices crying in the wilderness on this one.
A lot of people manage to persuade themselves that they'd rather have an M2 and $X000 than an MP -- especially if they haven't got the $X000. Few are as honest as you: yes, I'd like the MP, but I can't afford it.
I'd been using Leicas for a long time before I got my first new one. I'd been using them even longer before I got my second new one. You don't need frequent 'upgrades' after your first Leica, at least not with film (probably not from the M9, either).
But for me, it makes sense to buy the best you can afford, when you can afford it. I don't regret buying my M4-P, a dozen years after I started using Leicas and 7 years after my first, second-hand M3. Twenty years after the M4-P I got another new one, an MP...
EDIT: Not entirely in the wilderness: cf. Sazerac.
Cheers,
R.
sequitur
05-19-2011, 14:37
I've dreamt and thought day and night about getting a Leica black paint MP...
The first time I came close to buying one, I decided on getting a used M7 instead. It will shoot faster (it does).
Then the next round of GAS came and I wanted to get a used MP as a second camera to my M7 (because I will be going traveling).
And I came close to buying one, but I decided on getting an M6 TTL 0.58x to fit my 28mm Elmarit instead. It also takes pictures.
I think it would be wiser to sink more money into good glass first, then as time goes by you may want to swap out the bodies.
Body prices depreciate. Lens prices appreciate (generally). And at the end of the day it's the good glass that gets the sharp pictures... though I don't deny that using an MP seems to give mana/mojo into taking emotionally nicer pictures. Ah heck that!
Edit: BTW, that said M6 arrived in the mail yesterday. Holding it in hand, I actually don't regret not buying the MP that I held in a used dealer's store a while back. It's immensely familiar to the M7 that I already own. YMMV.
andredossantos
05-19-2011, 15:02
A lot of people manage to persuade themselves that they'd rather have an M2 and $X000 than an MP -- especially if they haven't got the $X000. Few are as honest as you: yes, I'd like the MP, but I can't afford it
OK, maybe some were not being "honest" as you said but I don't think you can write off a lot of the opinions here as simply coming from people who don't have the dough and thus are deluding themselves.
I suggested something other than an MP and I was being totally honest. I freely admit that I cannot afford an MP. However, if I DID have that kind of money I still would not buy an MP. I have many other items ahead of an MP on my wishlist, namely a whole load of top quality glass: Noctilux .95, a 75mm Summilux, a 35mm f1.4 ASPH, etc etc. As for Camera bodies: An M9, an M4, and probably even a minty M3 are ahead of the MP on my wishlist.
Anyway, I just don't agree that everyone who could afford an MP would buy one, all things being equal.
SimonSawSunlight
05-19-2011, 15:19
Dear Kemal,
A lot of people manage to persuade themselves that they'd rather have an M2 and $X000 than an MP -- especially if they haven't got the $X000. Few are as honest as you: yes, I'd like the MP, but I can't afford it.
and a LOT of people are being very honest when they say they feel absolutely no need to buy/own an MP, even if they have/had the cash. an MP would add absolutely nothing to my 'shooting experience' or whatever this is about. if you gave me a brand spanking new MP today, I'd sell it tomorrow and invest the cash in other things photography- and travel-related. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this way.
sorry for the off-topic, buy whatever camera suits you, if you don't have to sell your soul to afford it.
I agree 100%. In all honesty I don't feel any need to upgrade (I use a M6), and I'm quite sure my shooting wouldn't change a bit with a MP. On the other hand, I would often feel worried carrying >4000$ gear hanging from my neck.
I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this way.
secksthoi
05-19-2011, 21:51
Well I would of course buy within my means, so I guess I'm looking at the used market for an MP and plan to pair it with a Zeiss 35mm Biogon f/2. Reasons why I want the MP as my Leica M of choice is cuz it's definitely the M I've always wanted. It's something about the black paint that I love, the brassing is pure beauty.. I can't explain it. AND it's a full mechanical (modern) M with a meter. Sure the M6 does that too, but just the look and feel of an MP (visual, haven't held one :P) is something special.. I shoot a Hasselblad 500cm from time to time and every clank of that shutter is just magic so it must be the same with Leicas haha
I can't explain it. AND it's a full mechanical M.
Not exactly ... The last full mechanical M was the M4-P, every model after (and also the M5) is a more or less complicated electronic - mechanic hybrid. ;) Except for the "MP classic".
secksthoi
05-19-2011, 22:28
Not exactly ... The last full mechanical M was the M4-P, every model after (and also the M5) is a more or less complicated electronic - mechanic hybrid. ;) Except for the "MP classic".
lol..... I meant as in no need for a battery for it to work mechanical. Cmon work with me here :P
secksthoi
05-19-2011, 22:30
Oh I get it, nevermind.. I saw my mistake earlier so I edited it, but I guess you didn't see where I annotated MODERN with a METER haha
EDIT: Wait what the hell.. I saw the time difference.. You guys respond fast!
Oh I get it, nevermind.. I saw my mistake earlier so I edited it, but I guess you didn't see where I annotated MODERN with a METER haha
you 1 : me 0 ... :D;)
huntjump
05-20-2011, 14:55
new MP: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26736
After reading this, I agree that a M6 would never satisfy you as much as a black paint MP. I would still try to get a used one, and save as much as I can for good glass, travel etc.
It's something about the black paint that I love, the brassing is pure beauty.. I can't explain it. AND it's a full mechanical (modern) M with a meter. Sure the M6 does that too, but just the look and feel of an MP (visual, haven't held one :P) is something special..
secksthoi
05-20-2011, 16:23
new MP: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26736
WOW I totally wish I had the money right now........ = ='
Totally frustrating to be shopping for something and then not have the funds when you find a good deal. Look on the bright side, though: You have more time for further research and consideration about a sizable expense. :)
ashfaque
05-21-2011, 11:23
You guys are amazingly helpful and patient bunch. Thanks a lot for these advices. I'm sure they'll be very helpful for my future plans.
If I was buying now (, provided I had the money and time,) I'd get a heavily used and nicely working M6 and a 50 Summilux ASPH. :P
Roger Hicks
05-21-2011, 11:58
OK, maybe some were not being "honest" as you said but I don't think you can write off a lot of the opinions here as simply coming from people who don't have the dough and thus are deluding themselves.
I suggested something other than an MP and I was being totally honest. I freely admit that I cannot afford an MP. However, if I DID have that kind of money I still would not buy an MP. I have many other items ahead of an MP on my wishlist, namely a whole load of top quality glass: Noctilux .95, a 75mm Summilux, a 35mm f1.4 ASPH, etc etc. As for Camera bodies: An M9, an M4, and probably even a minty M3 are ahead of the MP on my wishlist.
Anyway, I just don't agree that everyone who could afford an MP would buy one, all things being equal.
Well, I said "a lot" and not "all": I didn't even say 'a majority'. Nor would I suggest for a moment that "everyone who could afford an MP would buy one". So we are far less in disagreement than you might think. Even so, I'll stick by "a lot". It's not a very precise term, after all.
And, as the OP has said, the MP is the one he wants. At that point, everything else is second best, regardless of the rationality of "want".
Cheers,
R.
andredossantos
05-21-2011, 17:36
Roger,
My message perhaps a bit more confrontational sounding than I meant it to be. Regardless, I think my definition of a "lot" is probably a bit "less" than yours :)
Also, Im in full agreement with you on the rationality aspect that comes into play.
Anyway! Cheers!
rogerzilla
05-21-2011, 22:21
I'm surprised that one of the repair shops, or even Solms, hasn't yet come up with a TTL metering conversion for an M2 or M3. You'd need to get a shutter curtain with a silvered spot, but the electronics must be tiny these days (compared to when the M6 was designed) and it might not even be necessary to strip out the self timer to make room. Price the conversion at $750 and you'd sell bucketloads.
secksthoi
05-27-2011, 15:19
Thank you for all the great advice everyone! I just wanted to give a quick update as I have decided to go with a Leica M2 for the fact that I've never handled a Leica before so made sense that some of you were suggesting I try an older, classic M first. I just received my M2 in the mail today and it just feels sooooo great in the hands! WOW feels like I'm holding a piece of history (considering it also came with the original tag and instruction manuals!).
Now I'm just debating whether it needs a CLA or not. This M2 looks almost mint and the shutter speeds sound accurate to the ear, even down to one second. But the advance does feel a little tight, yet still slightly smooth with no hesitation... I just have no idea what it should feel like considering I've never advanced a new one before, and the camera did collect some dirty gunk in the corners, but nothing where it seems like a Q-tip can't solve.. It has it's original 'L' seal by the way.
secksthoi
05-27-2011, 16:04
Yep original 'L' seal intact.
Congratulations... you have done a right thing.. (Otherwise I would be calling you Champagne Charlie..)
Anyway, your M2 is worth $100 more now.. and do not have it CLA at least until you notice something wrong with the lower speeds...
Bob
It is worthwhile to buy a new camera - MP.
It appears that the black paint is more popular. I have a silver one, shame to me. :)
....(considering it also came with the original tag and instruction manuals!).
With Leica M you almost need not a manual, except for film loading. BTW, the manuals were downloadable from net.
secksthoi
05-27-2011, 16:20
Okay I guess I spoke too soon.. When I actually opened up the back hinge door and looked at the shutter plane from both ends, it seems as though on the slower speeds it doesn't open up completely; I would say about 1/10 of the way so it was hard to notice. Probably would have had a a dark area along the edge of the frame if I were to have exposed any film.. darn...
But nothing too sad about, I already expected a good CLA. :)
secksthoi
05-27-2011, 16:21
With Leica M you almost need not a manual, except for film loading. BTW, the manuals were downloadable from net.
Oh yeah I know.. but just really cool to read and hang on to. :D
It is worthwhile to buy a new camera - MP.
It appears that the black paint is more popular. I have a silver one, shame to me. :)
Yeah seriously.. what were you thinking? :P
And the MP is still on my list buddy! But couldn't pass up on trying an M2!
Give it some exercise. It sounds like a CLA may be in order, and of course can't hurt a 50 yo machine. But if it loosens up a little, perhaps you will be able to get a few rolls through it to see how you like the experience.
Congrats, enjoy.
You can get an M3 or 2 of them. I have 4 M3's. That way I can rotate them for repairs if necessary. Always good to have a back-up, esp. when traveling. I had DAG replace the view finder in one of them with a MP finder. Also, that way you can carry two with different lenses.
Also, it is always better to put the money in the glass, not the box.
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