View Full Version : Some advice about an upcoming project ... please.
I'm not sure how many people know about the 'Inside Out' project started by a French artist named JR. In simplified terms he takes photographs of people mainly in the streets and pastes them in huge dimensions in a variety of unusual places ... often billboard size or larger. You really have to watch the video on the 'TED' (http://www.ted.com/talks/jr_s_ted_prize_wish_use_art_to_turn_the_world_insi de_out.html) site or the 'Inside Out' (http://www.insideoutproject.net/) site to get a handle on what he's all about and what his aims are for this project. He started off as a graffiti artist in Paris.
The creative arts institute that I do a little work for has decided to get on board with this project in a major way and have offered me a fee to produce images for them that can be used for their version of what JR is currently doing in various locations around the globe. They have the facilities to print up to bilboard sized images and want the people in the urban village surrounding the college photographed and if they're willing, have their faces spread around the community in a similar manner. The village is quite big and has a large Muslim population and this is the group they want me to concentrate on.
When I approach individuals it will be as a representative of the Queensland University of Technology who will supply me with whatever documentation I need to get each subject's release if they're willing to participate.
In the video of JR photographing subjects he appears to be using a Canon DSLR (couldn't tell which model) which has me wondering how many megapixels you actually need to be able to print to this size ... resolution is not really that important for the final image because they may wind up on a flight of steps or on the side of a garbage truck, or pasted on the side of a vacant building ... who knows? Having sold my soul recently to get my D700 I'm seriously wondering if it's going to be up to the job ... I'd have to suspect maybe not but I'm certainly in no position to be able to buy anything better at the moment!
Some feedback and advice would be much appreciated here.
Hi Keith,
Nick Rains is local to you in Brisbane and has experience in the print sizes you are talking about. Might be worth contacting him.
Regards,
Link to a useful calculator for billboard size enlargements (scroll down to subheading near bottom of page - When Resolution Becomes Important):
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-photo-enlargement.htm
I've had my eye on that French chap for a while, still undecided about him. I went from "wow sensational" to "Banksy wannabe" and I'm still not sure some of the work is visually splendid if a bit repetitive, but he seems just too pretentious ...
Keith, all depends on viewing distance and required print size. You probably are fine with 30-75 ppi and your D700 is more than suitable for that. I saw JR's prints all over Amsterdam 1 or 2 years ago and was not impressed. Portraits shot up close with a wide angle so that there is a lot of distortion which creates a "comic" look. The juxtaposition of Israeli and Palestine people, resembling each other in the way they looked funny, may have done something in Israel/Palestine, but outside that context it becomes very gimmicky I think.
I have a 48"x72" print shot on 135 with a cv 12mm and there is a spot one can view, around 3-4' it where it just comes to life ... I can see why he would go for a wide angle the odd look may just be due to the viewing distance
Irrespective of what anyone thinks of JR's work, the curator at QUT who has dangled this carrot in front of me, loves it. :D
... thinking about it the limitation is going to be computer capacity and subject type.
If there is no movement involved you could use a 135 and take a 36x24 frame matrix and stitch it together to get a 15,552 mp print ... if you can find a computer to run it.
If it's moving then you're looking at those interpolation programs to enlarge it .... of which I know nothing
I'd be stupid to say "No thanks!" but accepting does place me in rather unfamiliar territory ... I'm still somewhat of a digital luddite!
I thought briefly about shooting in MF with black and white film and paying for high quality scans but the price of scanning at this level in Oz is outrageous!
perhaps decide on the subject first?
It does sound like a job for medium format.
Time to upgrade the Pentax 67 for a 645D! Forty megapixels should be enough, with upressing. :-)
bobbyrab
03-17-2011, 02:50
Why don't you find out what the poster dimensions are, set the largest file you can get from the d700 to the poster dimensions, but just print an A3 size section of the stretched image and see how it looks, and from what distance does it come together.
I'm not worried about that side of it strangely Stewart ... that will just happen. Though I do sort of have a plan and some sketchy ideas whirling around inside my head! :p
I was looking at that link Lynn b gave me about calculating potential image size ... that kind of made my head whirl too!
Why don't you find out what the poster dimensions are, set the largest file you can get from the d700 to the poster dimensions, but just print an A3 size section of the stretched image and see how it looks, and from what distance does it come together.
That makes sense ... thanks, I'll try that some time over the coming week.
At this stage though I'm not totally sure how big they intend to print ... I know they have some very powerful digital projection gear they use at night within the complex and I think they do intend utilising this as well.
This whole thing was only dropped on me a couple of nights ago when I was delivering a disc to the curator's place ... she lives near by.
What would JR do?
Seriously. Get in touch with him through the Inside Out page.
I'm sure he'd be thrilled to help with your tech questions.
I do have a feeling from my readings that the D700 files will be sufficient provided that:
- they are correctly exposed, sharp files to start with (you already have Zeiss optics and the necessary skill)
- the printer uses a commercial quality RIP (Raster Image Processor - more powerful alternative to a printer driver). A commercial RIP in the hands of an experienced operator will give better results than CS5 and a printer driver.
- viewing distances are appropriate for the print size (a billboard image is very pixellated when viewed up close)
I suggest you find out who the printer will be and talk to them. Ask how they want the files. Do they want processed but original-size unsharpened files so they can do the uprezzing and sharpening with commercial grade software?
You've raised an interesting topic. The most useful information I've found that might help you is here:
http://layersmagazine.com/large-format-printing.html
Regards,
Once this project reaches the installation phase, please share some shots of that, particularly peoples' reactions.
I'd love to ... I really do like to test the waters here because although we're all photographers there's an incredible amount of diversity and opinion within this forum. Not to mention some very knowledgable and helpful individual members.
It was suggested that I span the shooting over a six month period and spend selected time within the Muslim community getting to know people, hopefully gaining their trust and respect and letting them know what my aims are and of course the aims of QUT's creative precinct in involving them with the Inside Out project. I think it will be a lot of fun. :)
Are you familiar with Bruce Davidson's "East 100th Street" project and book? The back story of how he gained access and trust are as compelling as the images.
Not familiar at all ... but I'll look into that, thanks. :)
I googled some images ... which I liked a lot.
I meant to add ... I do plan to involve the X100 in this project in an obscure way! :D
I am technically useless in this tread, but I have a creative point to make if I may :)
It could be nice if you compose and choose the place for your posters in the way that from a certain observation point they all blend in to a giant picture - just like a puzzle :D
Regards,
b.
andredossantos
03-17-2011, 07:00
In the video the guy JR says he initially used a camera he found in the subway and that the posters are made from photocopies of photographs. Unless that is all hyperbole (which is entirely possible), you should be more than fine with a D700 or any other decent camera's output. I dont think you need to worry about supremely fine resolution.
I am technically useless in this tread, but I have a creative point to make if I may :)
It could be nice if you compose and choose the place for your posters in the way that from a certain observation point they all blend in to a giant picture - just like a puzzle :D
Regards,
b.
We get advertisements for TV channel 4 like that, just appears briefly from one spot ... they win awards apparently
http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/2032330380
Yep, it's very cool!
Regards,
b.
f16sunshine
03-17-2011, 07:56
I'm not sure if it was mentioned yet or not. I would start with talking to the art director about "actual print size" requirements and then move on to the printer for file size requirements. Your skill and artistic leanings aside. It sounds like these two players are a big part of this project. Put it in their hands so you may deliver what is required. Sounds like a great project Keith. Have fun !
willie_901
03-17-2011, 08:05
Congratulations! Wonderful news.
Given the viewing distance for a billboard sized photograph, a well-focused 12 MP file will work well. I assume (hope) you will have some sort of contract for this commission. In the contract specify you will provide in-focus 12 MP images. The rest is their job. Your clients should be able to give you some feedback on the aspect ratio(s) they intend to use for the final prints. This may mean all the images have to be cropped anyway.
For me personally, I would practice my framing until I got to the point where you could use a full-frame image 90% of the time. I would also be spending a lot of time planning for the creative aspects of the commission.
If they come back and say a 12 MP image is insufficient, then add the cost of leasing a camera and lenses suitable for the project into the contract. This sort of cost is common in commercial photography projects.
Don't forget, the X100 automatically creates panoramic images : 180 degrees Vertical : 7680 x 2160 Horizontal 7680 x 1440; 120 degrees Vertical : 5120 x 2160 Horizontal 5120 x 1440
With a tripod the in-camera stitching just could create some interesting images for your project.
I am pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that JR was shooting his 28mm project with a film EOS. Take a look at some more of his videos and you will see him going back to some people he photographed in Paris with contact sheets in his hands (thought there was some TriX or TMax there). It may well be film and the viewing distance makes up for the grain.
On the other hand, I think the D700 should be good enough.
check this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWu-BSIUs2E&feature=player_embedded#at=50
Obviously some sort of interpolation will be needed for a huge blow up, and remember the prints will be viewed from a much further distance than the usual 8x10, 11x14.
No dslr will be able to give a high resolution print at the sizes you're talking about.
Keith, my hunch is that you can do this easily with your full frame Nikon digital, but if you want to be uber-cool, you could use your 4x5 Graphic and have the negs drum scanned. Articles will be written about your retro/high tech hybrid process and you could become famous. Opportunity knocks, IMO. You read it here first.
jesse1dog
03-17-2011, 14:31
It seems to me that the technical aspects of the project can be sorted - some hassle involved but all surmountable.
How about issues with the Muslim community? And surely the project can't involve just the Muslim community? I think I would be getting more details of the human element of the brief and setting out to gauge reaction and possibilities. Are there obvious people to contact?
jesse
I used to work as a retoucher for a place that printed billboard sized advertisements; as people have said it all depends on viewing distance and how the photos are up resed. Genuine fractals, as someone already mentioned, will be your friend for this kind of work. Your D700 will be more than enough, in fact, on occasion, we worked with mobile phone photos!
Keith, my hunch is that you can do this easily with your full frame Nikon digital, but if you want to be uber-cool, you could use your 4x5 Graphic and have the negs drum scanned. Articles will be written about your retro/high tech hybrid process and you could become famous. Opportunity knocks, IMO. You read it here first.
LOL ... I had actually thought about that Frank, then I thought about film holders, dark cloths, tripods, the incredibly limited depth of field when you shoot the Crown really close, the cost of film, developing, scanning ... and so on. There's not a huge amount of money on offer!
I think if I was doing this purely for an exhibition of my own work though I would seriously consider using LF ... after all it's good enough for our Frank P and I think people's interreaction to this style of photography would be interesting in itself.
It seems to me that the technical aspects of the project can be sorted - some hassle involved but all surmountable.
How about issues with the Muslim community? And surely the project can't involve just the Muslim community? I think I would be getting more details of the human element of the brief and setting out to gauge reaction and possibilities. Are there obvious people to contact?
jesse
A lot of the Muslims in the village are there for educational purposes ... the place is like an enormous university mixed with residential living and retail facilities ... it has a lot of energy, I always enjoy going there.
Of course my focus won't be entirely on the Muslim community ... more probably on how they intereact with the non Muslims.
I was there a couple of weeks ago photographing QUT's billboard, I had a couple of hours to kill waiting for it to get dark and had a kebab at a local shop. I sat in a small park and watched people walking by (my favourite pass time) and was amazed that I had never noticed the amount of women walking around in full Burkas previously ... those things really draw the eye and they just seem to glide past you ... fantastic!
Peter Wijninga
03-17-2011, 16:59
I just had a peek at the Inside Out site and it seems to me that any person/a group of people can upload b&w portraits + a project description and that they, Inside Out, pick and print the pics/project they like. Correct?
I just had a peek at the Inside Out site and it seems to me that any person/a group of people can upload b&w portraits + a project description and that they, Inside Out, pick and print the pics/project they like. Correct?
That's right, and this involves you directly with the global project. What QUT are doing is creating an independant mirror on a small scale for their own local environment.
How this will tie in with the global project is unknown by me at the moment. I know that they do a lot of collaberative stuff with overseas organisations with similar aims to their own but how this is being structured ... I can't say?
Peter Wijninga
03-17-2011, 20:48
An interesting project, even though I have some reservations about the meaning/impact such as in some african/asian slums. This said, I hope the project works out for you. Good luck!
keytarjunkie
03-17-2011, 21:10
I'm probably going to be doing some stuff in Cleveland, through the help of JR's people. I think he shoots a Canon SLR and a 16-35mm or one of those, but in some of his work he was using a mechanical 35mm SLR with a 28mm lens. I'm planning on using my Pentax 6x7, but I don't think it's really necessary. if you're not looking for absolute sharpness, the format doesn't really matter.
willie_901
03-18-2011, 06:48
Using film is an interesting option. Even a 35 mm film can be scanned with an ordinary scanner to create a file with more pixel density than any digital camera costing less than $20K.
While the film-scan pixels don't necessarily contain more information (i.e. many of the pixels in the film scan file are redundant) than a competent file from a 12 MP DSLR, scanning a low-ISO 35 mm negative is an interesting alternative to upsizing a digital image.
Food for thought.
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