ZI rangefinder further delayed [Archive]

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sgy1962

08-24-2005, 04:19

It was just announced on the photo.net board that the introduction of the new Zeiss Ikon rangefinder has been further delayed until October.

rover

08-24-2005, 05:30

Well, QC should have been pretty well organized when they announced the camera. Seems to me that they were rushing the camera to be available as soon as the lenses were. Surely the result of these delays will be a better product than one if rolled out earlier, but perhaps they should have delayed the announcement of the camera until it was really ready before they teased us.

ZeissFan

08-24-2005, 06:20

As much as I'm disappointed by the delay, life goes on and in the long run it's no big deal. It's better to see them get it right than have a product arrive that doesn't meet the quality that I would expect from Carl Zeiss AG.

If you want an example of a product rushed to market, look no further than the Canon 20D, whose firmware has been patched so many times it's ridiculous, as well as an (apparently) ill-fitting battery grip. In fact, some up the firmware releases are to correct problems caused by previous firmwares. Of course, we're talking computer technology, where the accepted method seems to be to get it to market first and then fix it later.

That's something you can't do with a film camera, so I'd rather see problems ironed out now. The only fix later with a faulty film camera is either a repair or an exchange, both of which leave you with an unfavorable impression of the company.

Huck Finn

08-24-2005, 13:03

I think that they rushed the announcement to get on the agenda at Photokina, which is only held once every two years.

Roger Hicks

08-24-2005, 14:41

The last I heard (from Zeiss) was pre-ordered units (limited edition) shipping in September, general availability October. I'm still hoping to see a press camera next month.

Cheers,

Roger

Huck Finn

08-29-2005, 08:11

Here's the latest communication I have received from Hasselblad. It adds a little detail to the post on photo.net last week:

"The ZI body will, per the latest input from Zeiss, be available in October, 2005. We will announce this on the website very shortly. the delay is caused by the rigorous qualifications and quality program carried out by Zeiss and showing the need for some fine tuning in the design. At least it tells us that a ZI body is not the same as a Bessa body. MUCH tougher requirements on long term quality performance."

KoNickon

08-29-2005, 08:38

A little gratuitous slap at the Bessa there? I agree with ZeissFan -- get it right now rather than suffer a recall and the attendant bad press and word-of-mouth.

Huck Finn

08-29-2005, 16:46

A little gratuitous slap at the Bessa there?

Yeah, they do seem a little defensive from all of those guilt-by-association comments about ZI being "a rebadged Bessa."Now that the marketing rep has been fielding these questions for almost a year & he sees at least 2 more months of the same, he seems to be getting a little testy. :bang:

Actually, he does have a point . . . although not the obvious one. If it were a "re-badged Bessa" as some have claimed, they would already have had lots of experience putting it together & years to have worked the bugs out. Forget about QC standards. . . The fact that they still need to "fine tune the design" in any way 3 months after it was originally scheduled for release, suggests that it's a work in progress - for better or for worse - & not a "re-badged" anything. :eek:

Huck

ZeissFan

08-31-2005, 09:47

I have a Bessa-R and an L. Fine cameras, and you can see how Cosina learned a bit more along the way, as the quality of the product seemed to improve.

I'm looking forward to the release of the camera (I see the updated shipping information has now been posted on the Zeiss Ikon site).

Very likely, the changes they requested occurred not long after the initial public rollout at Photokina and then at the Photo Expo, and they extended the shipping date in May by three months, thinking they could make that deadline. Well, who really knows what's happening.

In any case, patience is required although sometimes in short supply in our immediate gratification society.

Huck Finn

08-31-2005, 11:04

Well said, as always, ZeissFan. :)

Thanks for the update about the posting on the ZI website. - Huck

einolu

09-02-2005, 05:42

QuillianSW

09-02-2005, 06:00

Ah. I should be happy as theoretically I am saving the cash. I'll have blown it on something else by then undboutedly. Good that they want to get it "right," bad that so many folks have so many misconceptions. (No, it's not digitial, no it's not going to be under $1k USD, etc.).
Glad I'm in Baghdad. That New Orleans place sure looks pretty darn dangerous!

sgy1962

09-02-2005, 12:33

Probably late October; four months for the initial run of 1200 limited editions -- so your really talking about the Spring of '06 before standard production kicks in. Sounds a bit late to me. I could be wrong, but I was thinking that they had a fairly narrow window of opportunity to get this one out on the streets.

Have all the limited editions been pre-sold?

Will

09-14-2005, 08:22

Just wondering, whos going to get one when it comes out?

Any chance that it will be under 1k?

If so I could see myself going robbing a bank and doing other illegal things to buy one... [thought I would hold out for the black one]

I will have to sell my soul...

Any guesstimate on how solid will it be? It will be nice to have a Leica alternative, with Zeiss lenses, but still a brand new camera (system) is not something you buy everyday (or year)...

JohnL

09-30-2005, 11:13

Adorama has it listed for $1617. Not in stock yet though.

Doug

09-30-2005, 11:50

Any guesstimate on how solid will it be? It will be nice to have a Leica alternative, with Zeiss lenses, but still a brand new camera (system) is not something you buy everyday (or year)... Will, my guestimate from what I've seen written on the Z-I website and elsewhere is that the camera will have full "Zeiss quality", and this view is even encouraged by the delays in release date as they fine-tune the details and Carl Zeiss make darn sure it's up to snuff. I'd think that puts it into a league comparable to Leica... but since even Leica has had some hiccups along the way I imagine Zeiss is trying for perfection. :)

One very attractive thing about this new system is its lens-mount compatibility with Leica and Voigtlander, for a greater choice of price-points, and mix'n'match.

Fred

10-01-2005, 03:00

It takes a lot of guts to admit that something is not 'quite' ready for release, there is no point in risking the introduction of a flawed product that would tarnish the whole product line.

Some of the first Bessas had problems that were sorted quite quickly but that put a shadow over the model in the early days. The new CV stuff seems well built and decent quality so the new ZI should be very good.

I'm looking forward to trying one.

Uncle Bill

10-01-2005, 03:14

If it was my money on the line for one of the new ZI bodies, I would not mind the delay as I am a photographer by passion not a free lance volunteer quality control expert. This is in fact a good sign that Zeiss Ikon is taking the quality control hyper seriously. It would be worth the wait. I wonder if anyone is going to carry the camera in Canada?

Bill

Nikon Bob

10-01-2005, 03:51

Okay it is now October and where is it?

Bob

Huck Finn

10-01-2005, 04:06

Okay it is now October and where is it?

Bob

LOL. :D

October 29 is the official release date, Bob.

Huck

Huck Finn

10-01-2005, 04:25

Adorama has it listed for $1617. Not in stock yet though.

The price on the Cosina website is 153,000 Yen, which converts to $1348 with current exchange rates. The history of prices for the lenses is that grey market dealers like Cameraquest & Popflash come in a little under the Japanese retail price - not in all cases, but most. So, normally you can round down from the Cosina Japan price to geet the USA grey market price.

If the camera follows this pricing trend, it should be available for about $1300 - maybe a little less. I think that you can figure conservatively around $1400.

Cheers,
Huck

Huck Finn

10-01-2005, 04:40

sgy1962

10-01-2005, 04:48

Does anyone know if Zeiss gave prototypes out to some photographers to use and put through their paces before release to the public, like Leica did with the M7 and MP?

Will

10-01-2005, 05:38

Will, my guestimate from what I've seen written on the Z-I website and elsewhere is that the camera will have full "Zeiss quality", and this view is even encouraged by the delays in release date as they fine-tune the details and Carl Zeiss make darn sure it's up to snuff. I'd think that puts it into a league comparable to Leica... but since even Leica has had some hiccups along the way I imagine Zeiss is trying for perfection. :)

One very attractive thing about this new system is its lens-mount compatibility with Leica and Voigtlander, for a greater choice of price-points, and mix'n'match.

Hopefully the life of the electronic shutter is long, I have a Nikon F3, and it is showing its age.

I work in the manufacturing sector, so I know manufacturing delays:

Vendors do not deliver on time (ie, parts deliver the night before you are suppose to load a container :bang: )

Lack of production capacity (ie, 50% of the shop floor workers left in the past 12 months :bang: )

Failure of tests (ie drop test, age tests, child safety test, ship (vibration) test :bang: )

Delivery made to the wrong address (ie, UK delivey became Canada delivery :bang: :bang: :bang: workmate in another sales team, not me :bang: )

If it was my money on the line for one of the new ZI bodies, I would not mind the delay as I am a photographer by passion not a free lance volunteer quality control expert. This is in fact a good sign that Zeiss Ikon is taking the quality control hyper seriously. It would be worth the wait. I wonder if anyone is going to carry the camera in Canada?

Bill

You will be surpise how many under-quality products my company (the company I work for, which shall remain nameless) and my industry pump out.

The whole procuement process just force quality into the loo... Customers keep driving down the price, Salespeople keep recommanding cheaper materials. If the manufacturing process and quality system remain strong (which they don't), quality in the long run is still hard to come by.

Leica is doing very well upholding their quality but they also push their prices up. Zeiss Ikon has a lot to learn from their competitor for not being tempted for cost saving that will hurt them in the long run. (ie, Cosina with their sliver plastic top plate for the Bessas, Rollei and their badge-engineering of the RF35)

Okay it is now October and where is it?

Bob

Guess how many times I had to answer to that question when a certain major supply program died due to production quality and material issues.

:bang:

LOL

Will

10-01-2005, 05:44

It would seem from all this information that you are right that this camera has been built to a higher standard.

This will be nice, last thing you want is a deal like the Rollei RF35...

Nikon Bob

10-01-2005, 07:17

Will

I too work in industry and I see no quality control that would meet my expectations but maybe I am too fussy. There are, as you say, a great many factors that mitigate against it.

Bob

Solinar

10-01-2005, 07:36

Reading tea leaves: I expect that the improved RF optic, maybe some reworking of the film advance, some dampening of the shutter noise and tighter QC at the factory makes for a premium level C/V Bessa derivative.

The whole Bessa experiment has been an interesting development on the range finder scene. Right now I feel like I'm part of the experiiment with my humble Bessa R and two C/V lenses. Cosina has pretty much milked a lot of mileage out of what once had been a budget-minded SLR chassis.

The Hassy distributorship of the new ZI may make more expensive than it needs to be. Still I hope it sells well. Like many, I'll wait til the black bodied version comes out.

Huck Finn

10-01-2005, 11:17

Reading tea leaves: I expect that the improved RF optic, maybe some reworking of the film advance, some dampening of the shutter noise and tighter QC at the factory makes for a premium level C/V Bessa derivative.

The Hassy distributorship of the new ZI may make more expensive than it needs to be. Still I hope it sells well. Like many, I'll wait til the black bodied version comes out.

Solinar, you make an excellent point about the added cost that comes with Hasselblad. Japan is the one place where Hassy is not the distributor & the price there is about $170 less than USA. That extra $170 must be strictly the cost of $170 - perhaps some shipping costs as well & some additional increase as a hedge against the declining US dollar.

From a series of correspondences with Zeiss Ikon, I've learned that in addition to the improvements you mention, the shutter has a completely new shutter design (although using mostly standard Copal parts) and timing control mechanism & includes a permanent exposure lock feature, something the Bessas do not have. In addition, there are modifications to improve metering sensitivity. In addition, ZI also includes the much publicized VF with increased magnification & the addition of 28 mm framelines. I believe that improvements to the film advance were introduced on the Bessa 2/3A & I'm not aware of anything new on the ZI in this regard.

Cheers,
Huck

ZeissFan

10-01-2005, 11:28

Well, I'm figuring maybe four weeks until I have a camera and two lenses in my hot little hands.

kram

10-05-2005, 11:02

Anyone one for a sweep stake? My guess- UK first sightings in shops ummmmm....16 November. USA .....28 November. Just in time for a loved one to pop one (chrome edition only ) in your Christmas stocking. :D

Fred

10-05-2005, 11:35

Hmmmm, I quite like the chrome one, maybe some Christmas bonus fodder. Most of my cameras are black, all of my RFs are black......

A high quality RF camera that maybe I can see the 28 frame with glasses, that could sway it.

aizan

10-05-2005, 11:38

gandy said the chrome one is only chrome paint, not actual silver chrome, and that the black paint one looks much better. maybe i'll trade in my m2 for one...

JohnL

10-17-2005, 11:15

(snip)
If the camera follows this pricing trend, it should be available for about $1300 - maybe a little less. I think that you can figure conservatively around $1400.

Huck,
I hope you're right. Do you know if CameraQuest will carry it? He has the ZM lenses listed on his site. B&H now also has it for $1617 "coming soon".

Huck Finn

10-17-2005, 12:42

Huck,
Do you know if CameraQuest will carry it? He has the ZM lenses listed on his site. B&H now also has it for $1617 "coming soon".

Yes, he will be carrying the ZI but only in black, which means that it will probably be a few months before he has any in stock. I did not ak him the price, but it would be great if someone else could & post it.

Cheers,
Huck

JohnL

10-17-2005, 13:10

I did ask, but he doesn't have an answer at this time.

Huck Finn

10-17-2005, 13:22

Thanks, John. :)

Huck

Paul T.

10-17-2005, 15:08

"a premium level C/V Bessa derivative."

Can we drop that phrase? Good camera or no, it's made by CV, but not derived from one.

Mazurka

10-17-2005, 16:19

gandy said the chrome one is only chrome paint, not actual silver chrome, and that the black paint one looks much better. maybe i'll trade in my m2 for one...

Perhaps what he said was "chrome-(electro)plated", not "chrome paint." Or did he confuse the Zeiss Ikon's metal covers (according to www.zeissikon.com) with the Bessa R's plastic ones? :confused:

Frank Granovski

10-21-2005, 21:17

Perhaps Oct 2006 was what was meant. :cool:

aizan

10-22-2005, 02:10

he said it was only silver paint. did they plate the ones for real production?

JohnL

10-22-2005, 05:03

Perhaps Oct 2006 was what was meant. :cool:
:confused: :( :mad: :bang:

Frank Granovski

10-26-2005, 02:51

I e-mailed them and they said "Spring" 2006 for Canada.

Huck Finn

10-26-2005, 05:46

Frank did you specify a particular color? Did you ask for regular series production? What exactly was your question to them?

Huck

Frank Granovski

10-27-2005, 16:55

Huck, I asked them when it will be available in camera shops. I didn't ask about color, etc.

Huck Finn

10-27-2005, 17:12

Interesting, Frank. I guess they must be sending them where the greatest number of early orders are.

Huck