View Full Version : Would you buy a FULL FRAME Evil Camera?
All of this cropped frame stuff irritates me. Many of us have large lens collections, and I would love to use full frame with these, especially lenses like the Noctilux.
So any rumors on a full frame camera?
The cropped lens deal is an issue for me as yes, I have lenses that I like, and I don't like telephoto lenses. So yes, I would be more interested in a full frame mirrorless camera. I don't care how big it would be, I would assume it will be somewhat smaller than a full frame DSLR, but I would not expect that size would be a selling factor for this type of camera.
Any rumors, no. But I am willing to start one.
Nikon has committed to their distributors that they will produce a full frame DILFF by July 1. I heard it from a guy at Buffalo Wild Wings wearing a Packers jersey.
I would definately buy a FF EVIL camera, provided it had IQ as good as the sensor of the NEX (which I find to be impressive).
willie_901
02-04-2011, 06:43
of course... as long as its not a Leica (because I don't trust Leica).
of course... as long as its not a Leica (because I don't trust Leica).
I assume you're referring to something like an EVIL Leica-R solution camera; FF with no optical VF with the possibility of adapting Leica-M lenses.
I would only buy one if the EVF has a split prism focus screen to accommodate easy focusing with manual lenses. The high IQ is of course on any digi cams most wanted list.
I'll buy any camera if it promises to eventually bring out the talented artist photographer in me.
No I want a reasonably priced 645 sized sensor cam with a nice wide angle, works on a pair of AA batteries and good for at least a hundred shots off alkaline. Just take that Fuji everyone is on about and make it have a big sensor, though the sensor off the S3 unscaled would be cool. Of course they could always make a digital Mamiya 7 with a 6x7 sized sensor. I am fine with it being 50-400 ASA as well.
jsrockit
02-04-2011, 07:15
Of course they could always make a digital Mamiya 7 with a 6x7 sized sensor.
How wonderful would that be... :)
ibcrewin
02-04-2011, 07:17
Well, for me it's not about the image as much as the process. It's the difference between knitting a sweater and just buying one already made. Disclaimer: I don't knit.
PentHassyKon
02-04-2011, 07:23
Short answer is yes.
But it would most likely have caveats
#1: cost; obviously market will most likely dictate this
then the following factors
-image quality; depending on cost; as good or better than APS-C at a minimum
-size; should be smaller than a DSLR, hopefully Jacket pocket size.
-ability to use legacy lenses: M mount of course but I also have an investment in Pentax K mounts.
All of this cropped frame stuff irritates me. Many of us have large lens collections, and I would love to use full frame with these, especially lenses like the Noctilux.
So any rumors on a full frame camera?
90% chance Nikon will announce a FF evil this spring.
If it's small, under 2k, and will take all the legacy glass, I will buy one.
I don't care about the EVF, just give me a LCD like the Nex's, with focus assit.
jsrockit
02-04-2011, 08:42
90% chance Nikon will announce a FF evil this spring.
If it's small, under 2k, and will take all the legacy glass, I will buy one.
I don't care about the EVF, just give me a LCD like the Nex's, with focus assit.
I'd buy that too... but I require the EVF especially for manual focus.
I'd buy a FF evil camera -- so long as I could also adapt my Leica lenses to it. Otherwise, what's the point? No one's going to have the variety of glass I can get in vintage Leica-compatible lenses off the bat.
Short answer: no
Long answer.. I've no beef with the 1.5 crop on the NEX.. The wide end is plenty covered by the 16mm kit lens. If I were to buy a full frame camera at all, it would be a DSLR.. there restoring my 20 and 35-70 to their original focal lengths would pay off more.
Bugleone
02-07-2011, 00:42
Something akin to a 'FF' nex is probably the camera that I have been patiently waitng for these past five years. However, it has to be a complete system, not a 'half-system' like the nex's with no flash synch, accessory shoe or viewfinder options etc.
I don't think that the legacy glass is going to be much use on such a system apart from a few carefully chosen legends,....FF SLR's are very demading of lens quality and using most legacy glass simply trades back any advantage of FF. This is all too obvious as soon as you start making larger prints,...which is really why one 'needs' FF........
Yes, as long as the electronic viewfinder is as good as the current FF optical finders. If even slightly worse, then no.
90% chance Nikon will announce a FF evil this spring.
If it's small, under 2k, and will take all the legacy glass, I will buy one.
I don't care about the EVF, just give me a LCD like the Nex's, with focus assit.
I really highly doubt it - the nikon EVIL is supposed to have an even smaller sensor than m4/3.
Nikon Bob
02-07-2011, 01:51
Just give me the Fuji X100 with a FF sensor as good as the current Nikon D700 and taking M mount glass. As we are dreaming, keep the price under 3 grand.
Bob
No. I like built-in viewfinders, preferably optical, and quiet shutters.
But I would definitely get one if I was shooting landscape.
Phantomas
02-07-2011, 03:10
I'd be tripping over myself running to buy a full-frame mirorless. Anything smaller than D700, I'd love it. I hope Sony does something with their NEX. According to the latest interview they "plan to expand NEX range in couple of directions", which I suspect doesn't necessarily mean full-frame but more diversified including a little more manually flexible (enthusiast) model (?) They also said such range expansion will happen very soon. Spring?
edit: BUT, looking at the lens line-up of all those mirorless manufacturers doesn't really support a full-frame cam. At least not as they are currently.
No, I wouldn't.
Because of three reasons:
1. It would be very expensive, I guess.
2. I've got a 5D and don't need another fullframe cam really.
3. I want the EVIL cams to use lenses that cannot be used on a DSLR, including some c-mount lenses.
If someone gave one to me for nothing, I would be felxible, though, and gratefully take it. ;)
Yes, as long as the electronic viewfinder is as good as the current FF optical finders. If even slightly worse, then no.
+1
This will mean no, because currently electronic viewfinders are not just slightly worse -- they haven't even made it into the third league.
FF is better. If the lens itself comes with the system is cheap, it is good. If not, for most mounts, we have option in using other lens. With some lens profiling, one can handle many issues like CA, darker corners etc.
But I wonder whether this would be good idea of 645 or larger sensor. Of course, it is an alternative to S2/645D like Nex to M8/9, but in this case, it is really has to prompt one to ask, why?
One hope that one can have cheap on the newly designed lens for new 645 sized EVIL camera.
Otherwise, getting an old lens to work is much more problematic. Except for a few like Mamiya 7, most MF interchangable lens are large (due to SLR mirror design). Whilst I would to test my Hassey and my P67 lens on my nex3 soon, I do not consider this is viable lens. Compared with my 50f3.5 Leica old lens, the 50f4 Hessey and 55f4 P65 is really big. Carrying such a large lens would not be nice. Reaching that point, I am not sure I want to handle hand etc. Then you go back that you probably can use only the new camera system's own lens. One can only hope that it is cheap.
Just my thought.
Roger Hicks
02-20-2011, 06:41
More to the point, one might ask the camera manufacturers two questions:
1: Would you make one?
2: Why?
As Kent says, it ain't gonna be cheap. and as Tompas says, EVFs have a way to go yet.
In some ways, the likeliest candidate to make one (later rather than sooner) is Leica. Of course, if they do, there'll be the immediate snivelling that it costs too much.
Cheers,
R.
Ken Ford
02-20-2011, 06:57
Not until EVFs are indistinguishable from OVFs. Even better, put in a hybrid OVF/EVF like the new X100 and I'll sit up and take notice.
JoeFriday
02-20-2011, 07:04
This is very similar to the question of whether or not you would buy an auto-focus rangefinder. There are proponents on both sides of the fence... the purists who insist manual is the only way to go... and the people who embrace additional features.
Having used an Olympus Pen (E-P2) for almost a year now, I can say the camera is wonderful. And the EVF, while not perfect, is used about 90% of the time.
I absolutely love how my camera can use every lens I have (including my summicrons), and will probably adapt to any other lens I happen to find.
There are two drawbacks that annoy me with the camera, tho. The shutter lag is minimal, and not too noticeable in manual focus mode. But it's still there, and does occasionally make me wish I had an M-body in my hand.
But mainly it's the 2X crop factor that bothers me. I don't shoot wide angle too often, so it's not as much of a problem as it would be for other people. But it means that legacy glass isn't quite as useful as it could be. A 35mm summicron suddenly becomes a portrait lens.
So, a full frame EVIL camera with the requisite manual features and manual focus control would immediately eliminate half my complaints. Adding in an improved EVF would be icing on the cake. I think the cost factor is the only true issue.
I really highly doubt it - the nikon EVIL is supposed to have an even smaller sensor than m4/3.
I fear you are right: just what we need: another tiny sensor.
ZeissFan
03-24-2011, 17:46
I'm only planning one more digital purchase. This isn't it, because we won't be seeing a full-frame camera in this category for a long time.
Nokton48
03-26-2011, 09:06
Another short answer: No.
But I will be buying another Nex-3 (to use as a backup to my first one). Especially when the price drops, as the new models roll out. My Nex-3 is just fine for my uses, I really like it, especially for the costs involved. And I don't want to buy new batteries, cards, etc.
The LCD screen and 7x magnifier are all I need. I will run it into the ground.
Pherdinand
03-26-2011, 09:09
Nikon is making one.
I heard it from a forum member who heard it from a guy wearing a PHILIPS shirt at the Buffalo Chicken Wings on friday evening.
The guy was drinking faygo.
gekopaca
03-26-2011, 09:35
Not necessarily if they improve the low light performances and the dynamic range of the M43 sensors.
Because now the X2 crop factor isn't an issue for me (I've got all the accurate and fast lenses I need, except a 11mm but it will be made soon).
If they make a FF mirorless it will be certainly quite expensive (not as a M9, but FF sensor are still expensive!) and I should change all my lovely C-mount lenses.
So : I'm hoping for a M43 camera with above specifications :
- the new great sensor I spoke before,
- "X-100 like" EVF
- black paint
- silent shutter
- tiltable screen
- not too small (for good ergonomy)
Actually, something like a panasonic LC1 with a very good M43 sensor and a tiltable screen.
I think it's possible!
gekopaca
03-26-2011, 09:38
Nikon is making one.
Unfortunately last rumors I read said it will be a X2.5 crop factor sensor!
The system should be named “Nikon Coolpix PRO“
We should have news soon (April the 4th)
charjohncarter
03-26-2011, 09:45
Yes, I would buy one, but it would have to maintain auto focus of my primes (SLR) and have a GOOD converter for my range finder lenses. I don't take my DSLR out of the house now, because it is too bulky and heavy. But I feel like most here it will be a long time coming.
Good Canon 5D I cameras are selling in large numbers for $1000.
It has a very good reputation. Adaptors for almost all lenses are available. It has an Optical viewfinder. It's not that large. I suspect it would weigh in and be about the size of any full frame mirrorless camera.
The current selling price is likely a drop in the bucket compared to any FF mirrorless camera, IF SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY BUILD ONE.
Satisfy your lust right now. Then you'll know if you would drop 5 to 7 grand for what you describe.
DougFord
03-26-2011, 11:31
cheap and dirty.
I could see a non-camera electronics manufacturer producing a 'generic' FF camera modeled after the NEX3 design.
Very basic body design with live-view, articulating LCD with a proper hot shoe.
More of an experimenters/hobbyist camera with an open source programmable interface.
It would be imperative to implement some sort of PD focus confirmation system, perhaps Fuji's pixel masking solution.
Gabriel M.A.
03-26-2011, 12:05
So any rumors on a full frame camera?
I bought my Canon 5D back in 2006.
mfunnell
03-26-2011, 12:09
I bought my Canon 5D back in 2006.An age ago in "digital time". Yet the photos it takes are still just as good...
...Mike
MRohlfing
03-26-2011, 13:07
This will mean no, because currently electronic viewfinders are not just slightly worse -- they haven't even made it into the third league.
Nothing to worry about, you can always add an optical finder!
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/gallery/10398/U10398I1301175514.SEQ.0.jpg
Actually, something like a panasonic LC1 with a very good M43 sensor and a tiltable screen.
I think it's possible!
I wouldn't like to carry around a 2-2.8/28-90 lens that covers a µ4/3 sensor all the time.
I love my Leica Digilux 2, though. (If it only had a better viewfinder!)
Yes, I will buy two, use kit/auto focus lens on one, and Leica M lens on other one.
f16sunshine
03-26-2011, 14:57
A 24x36 mirrorless is not likely to happen.
Digital sensors need too much help with microlenses as the register distance gets shorter.
I just don't see the advantage for any of us RF fans wanting to use legacy glass.
The Nex or some other aps-c sensor camera will be as good as it gets regarding mirror-less/legacy use.
How excited would any of us get if canikon delivered a 24x36 sensor mirrorless camera that only could use proprietary lenses?
I'll speak for myself at least... Not very excited.
I think (yes an opinion) that is as close as they will get us.
doolittle
03-26-2011, 15:18
I am still waiting for Leica to bring out the pocketable 8x10 digital daguerreotype collapsible view camera I posted them the plans for. I made an orgami model and all, so I can't understand what the delay is. I know we had the issue with the mercury cartridges breaking in the post, but hey it is a proto type.
So no, I won't be buying no low-res FF camera when I know what is around the corner.
Well, I agree it probably will not happen very soon. The high-end users are covered by M9 and most of the lower end users (no pun intended) by the m4/3 or NEX (or similar) cameras which have a very obvious size advantage. Then there is a small group of users that would love to have FF mirror-less, but are not able to afford the M9 (or would prefer a different concept)
There is no problem with wide lenses designed for digital sensors (there are very wide FF lenses for DSLRs), there is problem with classical rangefinder lenses. Question is - does it pay for producers to make a complicated sensor that allows to use these manual focus only lenses - when there is already a camera that does that?
It seems that most choose to produce a camera and lenses with sensors smaller than FF not only to keep the price down, but also to keep the size down. Look at the zoom lenses for NEX cameras. Do you find them small? Imagine the size of the lens for FF NEX camera - the lens would be even bigger. Once you loose to size advantage relative to compact APS-C cameras you loose many potential customers. Most people simply do not camera about the difference between APS-C and FF.
Would I buy FF mirror-less camera? This would depend not only on the price and sinze, but also on the implementation. Right now Ricoh GXR is closest to what it could look like - modular camera with removable sensor unit (think of the M-mount unit that is coming soon).
I am wondering how complicated it would be to make a rangefinder-like focusing while using as the main image the image from camera sensor and the second one from a small sensor built-in the body - and the simply combining them in the viewfinder. What about that? That would allow with the same EVF manual rangefinder-like and automatic focusing.
No
because no doubt the size of the lenses also would increase.
Asking for a full frame EVIL camera is like asking for a medium format sized 35mm digital. What features that attracted a certain market would also change. That would be risking the loss of that market and a product with no clearly defined target market. A difficult sell.... probably ending up too expensive for the current market or not convincing enoigh to compete with the likes of DSLR makers as in Canon or Nikon
f16sunshine
03-26-2011, 16:08
Correct me if I'm wrong. Very wide angle rectilinear lenses for m4/3 as well as smaller compact are capable of their wide fov only after software correction. This is my point from before. A FF mirrorless would require one to use lenses designed for it. Ltm and M mount lenses over a certain FL would not be useful. Kodak and Leica had to do some major work on the M9 sensor to use standard rf lenses (which contributes to it's cost we collectively complain about ). Who thinks Canikon or Sony for that matter would invest r&d $$ so that we can use our Leica Super Angulons 21mm and Canon topogon clone 25mm from another era? (dammit if I'm not king of run on sentence ;) )
So any rumors on a full frame camera?
Rumors!!!! Yeah!!!!!!
shashinka-ichiban
03-26-2011, 17:11
Unfortunately last rumors I read said it will be a X2.5 crop factor sensor!
The system should be named “Nikon Coolpix PRO“
We should have news soon (April the 4th)
Nikon is rumored to be making one. :p There's a lot of things Nikon is rumored to be doing. I'm waiting for Nikon to make a camera that can also replace my wife
gekopaca
03-26-2011, 22:20
I wouldn't like to carry around a 2-2.8/28-90 lens that covers a µ4/3 sensor all the time.
I love my Leica Digilux 2, though. (If it only had a better viewfinder!)
Excuse me but I don't understand what you are speaking about.
I've got no zoom(s), never used them, I use only fast and sharp primes on my M43 camera, specially :
- Panasonic 20mm f1.7
- Cosmicar TV 25mm f1.4
-SOM Berthiot 50mm f2
That's why I'm just waiting now for a 11mm, because I love wides.
Excuse me but I don't understand what you are speaking about.
I've got no zoom(s), never used them, I use only fast and sharp primes on my M43 camera, specially :
- Panasonic 20mm f1.7
- Cosmicar TV 25mm f1.4
-SOM Berthiot 50mm f2
That's why I'm just waiting now for a 11mm, because I love wides.
"Actually, something like a panasonic LC1 with a very good M43 sensor and a tiltable screen."
Your words...
That's what I was talking about. The LC1 has a 2-2.8/28-90 lens, but on a 2/3" sensor. And such a lens for a µ4/3 sensor would be considerably larger and heavier...
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