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View Full Version : First look preview of X100 at dpreview.com


shambla
01-25-2011, 02:26
Dpreview.com have just posted a short hands on preview of the X100 with a pre-production prototype version of the camera which can be found here: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilmx100/ . Haven't started reading it myself, so no idea what their opinions are yet, but I am sure people will be interested to read a reputable source give this camera a look, even if it isn't final production hardware or software.

Shambla

Keith
01-25-2011, 02:59
dpreview are all over it like a cheap suit!

Still nothing we didn't already know though ... where's the images? :D

san84
01-25-2011, 03:00
nothing new

mabelsound
01-25-2011, 03:01
When they say they can't say anything at all about IQ, does that mean they're not allowed to, or that the camera doesn't actually produce images yet?

Keith
01-25-2011, 03:07
When they say they can't say anything at all about IQ, does that mean they're not allowed to, or that the camera doesn't actually produce images yet?


It seems ludicrous to me to review/preview a new camera without discussing ... or being able to discuss IQ. What's the purpose of a ****ing camera if it isn't to produce images.

It was just a sponsored fondle ... more hype!

andrew00
01-25-2011, 03:12
http://www.akam.no/artikler/fujifilm_x100/80789/1

I don't know if this site is legit but on the second page of their preview they have images posted!

Pickett Wilson
01-25-2011, 03:18
They are using pretty heavy noise reduction on those high ISO jpegs. Softens the images a lot. RAW files will tell the tale.

Pickett Wilson
01-25-2011, 03:21
The Nikon they are comparing it too keeps the noise reduction low. More noise, but sharper images.

I guess there ain't no free lunch, though.

rxmd
01-25-2011, 03:25
Whatever images you find online is produced by work-in-progress preview cameras using work-in-progress preview firmware.

I know we all want to jump to conclusions but for definitive statements about image quality it's just too early.

andrew00
01-25-2011, 03:30
One area Fuji have definitely been cloudy on is the sensor, which some people suggested was an old D90 sensor (and not a new D7000 aka new Sony sensor) due to the 12 mp, though Fuji have said they designed it themselves we don't know if they designed a tweak from the stock sensor or what.

If it were an old D90 sensor I'd expect it to perfect less well than the D7000, but it seems to be doing pretty well by comparison.

Albeit it with it's pre-production 'can't really tell for sure' images.

Naumoski
01-25-2011, 03:34
There should be written a BIG review from all deep posts and conversations about X100 from this forum over several last months :) :)

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 03:35
The Nikon they are comparing it too keeps the noise reduction low. More noise, but sharper images.

I guess there ain't no free lunch, though.

I disagree. In their samples, the x100 has better detail and less noise than the d7000 comparisons. Looks like an excellent noise suppression job for jpeg. I'll bet the jpegs were taken with minimum sharpening too...

Those samples look really fantastic. Top of the aps-c heap IMO.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 03:36
Also, I just noticed the camera comparison here - check out how the x100 is really similar to the GF1 - what I would call a compact camera.

http://a.img-dpreview.com/previews/fujifilmx100/images/compared-composite.jpg

Pickett Wilson
01-25-2011, 03:39
Did the article say what lens they were using on the D7000?

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 03:43
Did the article say what lens they were using on the D7000?

Don't think so, but if you look comparatively between base iso and high iso I think the x100 is doing a better job.

If you're thinking the lens on the x100 is better I'd say you're right about that too...

shambla
01-25-2011, 03:45
Yeah, having read it I agree - nothing very much new in the preview. The couple of things I was pleased to hear were their positive opinions on the viewfinder (brightness, size etc) and the overall build quality. I know that other sites have made similar comments before, but a lot of those were more consumer electronics type sites like engadget and so I am willing to attach a bit more weight to them coming from dpreview. Still very curious about image quality like everyone else, but I am happy to wait until there are final (or very close to final) production versions available.

Shambla

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 03:47
If it were an old D90 sensor I'd expect it to perfect less well than the D7000, but it seems to be doing pretty well by comparison.


If the sample images on the foreign link posted are indicative of it's normal quality, I'd say this is no d90 sensor, or at least if it is it's been tweaked and massaged into something new for this camera.

sper
01-25-2011, 04:20
I'm still saying I gotta throw this in the pile of irresponsible purchases I'll make this year. I've been waiting YEARS for an affordable compact I'd actually enjoy using. The EP-1, GF-1 and NEX's are so sad compared to this. Why has it taken so long to design this camera! ($7,000 dollar status pieces aside). I don't even think it's 'retro' as much as it is 'good design.'

This is going to be perfect for traveling when I don't wanna take the 5Diesel II. And that's saying something since I've already forgone Canon lenses for the pancake's from Voigtlander.

I'm thrilled.

Now just waiting for Olympus to make a digital Stylus Epic (full frame of course!)

damien.murphy
01-25-2011, 04:26
Nice to see a detailed preview, even if without images yet. The lack of a hard iso button concerns me though, and I hope Fuji doesn't drop the ball in this regard.

sper
01-25-2011, 04:45
Nice to see a detailed preview, even if without images yet. The lack of a hard iso button concerns me though, and I hope Fuji doesn't drop the ball in this regard.

There is a function button near the shutter. Probably programable. Or if it's anything like the Nikon P7000, it won't do anything at all. I however think Fuji will probably allow it to do something, unlike Nikon.

One other thing I noticed when looking at the larger picture of the rear of the camera, was that the control dial was one of those damn click left click right types, as opposed to a spinning dial. This initially annoyed me but then I remembered...oh wait...if I want to change the shutter speed or aperture I just...TURN THE APERTURE OR SHUTTER RING. Amazing!

I'm still stoked.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 04:49
Nice to see a detailed preview, even if without images yet. The lack of a hard iso button concerns me though, and I hope Fuji doesn't drop the ball in this regard.

Function button on top plate defaults to iso adjustment.

damien.murphy
01-25-2011, 05:00
Function button on top plate defaults to iso adjustment.

Yes, figured it would. Keen to try one in my hand, and see how everything works together.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 05:06
http://www.akam.no/artikler/fujifilm_x100/80789/1

I don't know if this site is legit but on the second page of their preview they have images posted!

The 3200 looks completely useable imo. Very excited.

StaaleS
01-25-2011, 05:11
http://www.akam.no/artikler/fujifilm_x100/80789/1

I don't know if this site is legit but on the second page of their preview they have images posted!

Yes, Akam is a legit site here in Norway.

Frank Petronio
01-25-2011, 05:19
I hate to contribute to the hysteria but... Geez, it is getting closer to perfect than any digital camera yet.

I just want to time it so I am not buying the first Beta-tester versions but not waiting until September to actually get one either... I suspect the demand will outstrip production for half its life cycle.

How the other manufacturers could have ignored this market segment for so long is baffling, isn't it?

Faintandfuzzy
01-25-2011, 05:22
dpreview are all over it like a cheap suit!

Still nothing we didn't already know though ... where's the images? :D


Here:

http://www.akam.no/artikler/fujifilm_x100/80789/2

Keith
01-25-2011, 05:26
Here:

http://www.akam.no/artikler/fujifilm_x100/80789/2


I saw those when someone posted the link earlier and they look very good. I'm still surpised that dpreview have nothing image wise to go with their review though! It makes their effort nothing more than leaflet talk IMO.

Pickett Wilson
01-25-2011, 05:28
Yeh, but if the X100 is this good, just think how great the X200 will be! ;)

mabelsound
01-25-2011, 05:30
Those high-ISO crops look superb. And I am absolutely delighted that DPReview likes the handling. I believe they say it's only trumped by the M9? Astounding.

GSNfan
01-25-2011, 05:36
I'm glad Fuji stopped the whole viral internet marketing nonsense and now we're getting concrete info from reputable sources. The dpreview article answered every question i had about X100, its as if the person who wrote the preview was reading our threads here.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 05:40
Where are all the haters? ;) From what I can see, I'd have no issue using this up to 12800 in raw...but I'm not that picky and I don't mind noise...

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 05:47
Yes, and the GF1/20mm fits in my jacket pocket nicely, even with the EVF!

One thing I hate about most comparison images, is they only show from the front. There are a few out there that show from the top, which is what really makes a camera pocketable or not. The Canon s90 isn't that much smaller from the front than the X1 or Nex, but from the top it's positively miniscule.

http://www.bmupix.com/storage/thumbnails/5719816-8620834-thumbnail.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=128498796 0525 this one is good, shows the sensor sizes too.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5012055213_29caf15e35_z.jpg X1 and x100 overlayed from top

http://gear.benjacobsenphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/x100-thickness-comparison.jpg Thinnest from front to back of everything but the X1, and it by just barely.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 05:48
Where are all the haters? ;) From what I can see, I'd have no issue using this up to 12800 in raw...but I'm not that picky and I don't mind noise...

Same here (don't mind noise). I'd love to see a raw file at 6400 (last non-pushed iso).

Frank Petronio
01-25-2011, 05:51
The biggest problem is going to be finding landfill space for all the old digital cameras....

Burkey
01-25-2011, 05:59
The lens on the X100 looks tiny, similar to the pancake 20/1.7. Pretty close in size to the 14/2.5, and that's sorta' an oversized lens cap.
'Nice to finally see some images from the camera.
. . . Burkey

andrew00
01-25-2011, 06:01
Does the camera tech, the parts, actually change throughout their life cycle?

As in response to being an early adopter and being a beta tester of the camera, do you mean more the firmwire issues which are ironed out by updates.

Or do you mean that the first models out might be different gear wise?

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 06:07
Does the camera tech, the parts, actually change throughout their life cycle?

As in response to being an early adopter and being a beta tester of the camera, do you mean more the firmwire issues which are ironed out by updates.

Or do you mean that the first models out might be different gear wise?

I can't remember the last camera where parts have changed in the life of the product. The M8 - 8.2 is the closest I can think of.

The scroll wheel the norwegian site mentions being vestigial and loose, I hope/assume they will replace it with a nicer more durable part, and I assume it will control whatever you click the Fn button to control (iso or what have you)

As nice as it is to see the images from the norwegian one, I can see why Fuji wouldn't want more hands on stuff yet if there are still this many hardware aspects to figure out.

If they don't have actual parts finalized, they will in all likelihood delay launch. It's highly unlikely and practically unprecedented that they will release it, then round 2 off production line has firmer dial parts or a metal battery door.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 06:08
Where are all the haters? ;)

Making pre-orders... haha :angel:

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 06:14
Who else thinks this is just *delicious* (http://images.gfx.no/786/786601/DSCF3364.JPG.jpg) looking bokeh?

The back right tree in particular is just creamy smooth.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 06:19
The bokeh just looks regular to me...

GSNfan
01-25-2011, 06:22
This is a nice camera but wake me up when there is a digital camera with a 32 bit b&w sensor.

totifoto
01-25-2011, 06:25
My only concern now is the RAW button. Why do they have it there? I´m afraid I would be pressing it accidentally all the time.

Paul T.
01-25-2011, 06:34
dpreview where's the images? :D

More than that - where's the first impression of focusing speed? I could understand why it's too early to post images, but it seems pointless doing a preview without some analysis of how well, and how quickly, it focuses.

IN any case, their enthusiasm is promising, it means mroe dealers should order the camera, and more rival manufacturers will take notice.

The fact the camera seems to he heading over the £1,000 mark means I'll have to hold off until the summer at least, but I"d like to see lots of X100 on the move, and a price reduction in July or August...

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 06:36
My only concern now is the RAW button. Why do they have it there? I´m afraid I would be pressing it accidentally all the time.

It's to turn on/off the capture of Raw images, or if you are shooting in Raw only, for an in camera conversion of a raw into a jpeg using the jpeg engine of the camera.

Useful in times when you are without a computer with Lightroom/silkypix/photoshop but you want to share/print/upload a jpeg of a shot you took.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 06:36
More than that - where's the first impression of focusing speed? I could understand why it's too early to post images, but it seems pointless doing a preview without some analysis of how well, and how quickly, it focuses.

IN any case, their enthusiasm is promising, it means mroe dealers should order the camera, and more rival manufacturers will take notice.

The fact the camera seems to he heading over the £1,000 mark means I'll have to hold off until the summer at least, but I"d like to see lots of X100 on the move, and a price reduction in July or August...

Yeah, it's sad that neither Dpreview or the norwegian site made mention of AF speed.

kevin m
01-25-2011, 06:42
How the other manufacturers could have ignored this market segment for so long is baffling, isn't it?

It is baffling. Since many of us end up welding a 35-ish lens on our RF's anyway, a digital Canonet at a Canonet-like price is what we've been looking for.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 06:42
dpreview never post anything further than body impressions and feel/fit on their previews. The meat of the experience always comes in the full review.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 06:46
It is baffling. Since many of us end up welding a 35-ish lens on our RF's anyway, a digital Canonet at a Canonet-like price is what we've been looking for.

Not baffling at all... rangefinder users are a niche group. Most large companies are not looking to cater to niches.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 07:48
Translated from the Norwegian article: In the whole, however, worked both metering and autofocus fine, even in low light.

Highly speculative, but don't you think if it was sluggish they might have mentioned that? I know we can't really glean speed off of this, but seeing as they criticized other aspects of it, while saying, "but we know this isn't final", they would have said something about slow AF if it was unbearably slow.

That's probably me reading too much into it, but it makes me hopeful for good AF speed.

Frank Petronio
01-25-2011, 08:03
The wouldn't mention slow autofocus on a preview model anyhow, that would not be fair to the manufacturer who hasn't finalized everything yet.

Most likely it should be faster than an X1 ;-)

bwcolor
01-25-2011, 08:07
The review is pretty much without substance, but their suggestion to include a filter adapter ring with the camera is an excellent one and we should all bombard Fuji with an echo of the same. They need to put the adapter in with the camera.

sper
01-25-2011, 08:11
More than that - where's the first impression of focusing speed? I could understand why it's too early to post images, but it seems pointless doing a preview without some analysis of how well, and how quickly, it focuses.

IN any case, their enthusiasm is promising, it means mroe dealers should order the camera, and more rival manufacturers will take notice.

The fact the camera seems to he heading over the £1,000 mark means I'll have to hold off until the summer at least, but I"d like to see lots of X100 on the move, and a price reduction in July or August...


With a 23mm lens focusing speed will not be an issue.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 08:16
The wouldn't mention slow autofocus on a preview model anyhow, that would not be fair to the manufacturer who hasn't finalized everything yet.

Most likely it should be faster than an X1 ;-)

They mentioned plenty of similar things, unworking buttons, camera freezing up, a dial that didn't connect to any functions.

It's not an endorsement of AF speed, but I think it can be taken as good news.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 08:17
With a 23mm lens focusing speed will not be an issue.

How does that follow? The X1 has a similar lens length (24mm?) and it get's dinged for it's slow AF.

GSNfan
01-25-2011, 08:22
The google translate site works pretty well with the Norwegian translation. just make sure you try one paragraph at a time.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 08:26
The google translate site works pretty well with the Norwegian translation. just make sure you try one paragraph at a time.

If using Chrome, it pops up the "do you want to translate option" The benefit of not only getting the whole page translated, is when I saved it to disk in case Fuji asks them to take it down later, the page is saved in that translated version (in my case english).

Frankie
01-25-2011, 08:37
Give dpreview a break.

They were given "an early sample" no doubt with an NDA in place. Often, and as soon as the camera is released, they would have a full reveiw... How do you think they could do it so quickly...if not already having a working/final model but agreed not to publish anything, you know...NDA.

I am gratified to read the built-quality is high, camera solid and handling the way a camera should.

I was correct even in speculating [in the mega thread long ago] that the dial left of the VF is for diopter correction, and the dual windows on the right is the optical sensor to turn on/off the EVF when in that mode...just like the EVF in the Oly-pen models.

The only thing new to me [I]spec-wise is the "jog" dial now known to have 3 positions: push-in, left and right. Despite Fuji calls it "convenient command lever" and generally believed it is for flash control; I believe, firmware permitting, several functions could be assigned to that jog control. [I would select a few focal positions for a medium f-stop to do zone-focusing. You know: push-in to activate at medium focal position, left for far, and right for close.]

The removable lens ring exposed a male thread for the adapter ring. I would not be surprised someone would make a female thread lens hood...hopefully rubber. Or might Fuji actually intended to use that for mounting a lens [focal length] converter...a 2X would answer all my wishes.

I say again: "the [x100] is my idea!"...and my money is ready.

ZeissFan
01-25-2011, 08:52
I don't think you can get much in these previews of pre-production models, aside from general touch and feel and ergonomics.

The camera is incomplete, which is made clear by buttons that don't work. And any photos taken with it probably couldn't be fairly judged, as the programming hasn't been completed.

However, I'm with Frank and I'm not sure that I would plunk down my money for the privilege of being one of Fuji's beta testers. And that's the reality of any radically new electronic product or software.

Hey, remember about six or seven years ago when morons were bidding on the rights to buy Canon's full-frame SLR? Not buying the camera, mind you, but just to get in line to buy it. I think the same thing happened with a console video game at Christmas a couple of years back -- before the big crash slapped people back to reality. But I guess if you have the money, go for it.

kevin m
01-25-2011, 08:54
Not baffling at all... rangefinder users are a niche group. Most large companies are not looking to cater to niches.

It's not JUST RF users who have been clamoring for years for a smaller alternative to carrying a DSLR - DSLR owners have been asking for one, too, and they're just as obsessed with the search for the 'perfect' compact digital camera, as we are here. I would say that's the one area where DSLR shooters and RF shooters have a LOT in common, actually.

I don't think it's a "niche" if nearly every thoughtful photographer on the planet is looking for one. :D If Fuji gets this camera right, it's going to be huge. I think a lot of us here who might have been saving for an R-D1 or M8 might opt for this camera instead.

sper
01-25-2011, 08:55
How does that follow? The X1 has a similar lens length (24mm?) and it get's dinged for it's slow AF.

I guess I didn't think about that. I just don't get how lenses with such great depth of field can take so long to focus. Olypmus Pen, and point and shoot cameras come to mind.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 09:00
The only thing new to me spec-wise is the "jog" dial now known to have 3 positions: push-in, left and right. Despite Fuji calls it "convenient command lever" and generally believed it is for flash control; I believe, firmware permitting, several functions could be assigned to that jog control. [I would select a few focal positions for a medium f-stop to do zone-focusing. You know: push-in to activate at medium focal position, left for far, and right for close.]



The jog dial is for adjusting the Fn setting, as I've said multiple times. It's very unlikely it will be initially set to adjust zone focusing, and from what's been released so far, I don't think zone focusing presets will be possible with any button combo on the X100.

Please, please stop saying the x100 was your idea. Many people have thought of similar camera designs (including myself), and it's Fuji's designers who came up with this particular implementation. Unless you were contracted to provide the design for this by fuji, could you please stop saying that?

nightfly
01-25-2011, 09:01
It will be interesting to see if all the interest translates to sales. So far Canon and Nikon haven't jumped into this arena but if the sales look promising, there's not reason why they couldn't. There are rumours of a Nikon "pro mirrorless" camera coming out. As DSLR sales slow down, as I hear they are, the big two are going to be looking to expand into more niche areas that they have been neglecting.

Personally this looks great but I'm not too interested until I see how others like a final production unit with finalized firmware etc. I've bought and sold enough digital cameras to be pretty cautious.

Fuji has certainly done a great job ginning up interest though.

Frankie
01-25-2011, 09:04
......However, I'm with Frank and I'm not sure that I would plunk down my money for the privilege of being one of Fuji's beta testers. And that's the reality of any radically new electronic product or software.......

Notice I didn't say I will pre-order...only that "my money is ready". However, I now do not have any deal-breaker in mind.

Funny thing, THE deal breaker for me is a decorative-only lens focusing ring...even if I use AF a lot.

Frankie
01-25-2011, 09:12
......Please, please stop saying the x100 was your idea. Many people have thought of similar camera designs (including myself), and it's Fuji's designers who came up with this particular implementation. Unless you were contracted to provide the design for this by fuji, could you please stop saying that?

Can you take a joke? :D

That was what I posted long ago regarding Fuji inviting user "opinion" commonets. Many naysayers say the X100 is not to be believed...asking input after the camera has been shown, as if Fuji needs YOUR input.

I likened it to the brilliant Microsoft TV ad that "Window 7 was my idea"...most people, except those never watch TV know that joke.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 09:16
It's not JUST RF users who have been clamoring for years for a smaller alternative to carrying a DSLR - DSLR owners have been asking for one, too, and they're just as obsessed with the search for the 'perfect' compact digital camera, as we are here. I would say that's the one area where DSLR shooters and RF shooters have a LOT in common, actually.

I don't think it's a "niche" if nearly every thoughtful photographer on the planet is looking for one. :D If Fuji gets this camera right, it's going to be huge. I think a lot of us here who might have been saving for an R-D1 or M8 might opt for this camera instead.

Time will tell. I don't think the X100 will be as ubiquitous as most think it will.

Realize that the majority of DSLR owners are novice amateurs (not serious photographers) who buy only one camera with kit lens, not camera geeks who buy multiple cameras.

Many people will think it is too expensive in comparison to other models.

R-D1 and M8 users are a very miniscule niche for sure.

Seriously, the VF is what does it for many people on here. Realize that most consumers don't even know the difference. Without consumers, it'll be a niche camera regardless of how many serious photographers buy one.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 09:31
The Norwegian guy answered questions here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1012&thread=37552213

(I can't wait to hear the reactions to this)

Ezzie
01-25-2011, 09:37
I saw those when someone posted the link earlier and they look very good. I'm still surpised that dpreview have nothing image wise to go with their review though! It makes their effort nothing more than leaflet talk IMO.

The site is Norwegian, a language I´m familiar with ;)

They are in fact a bit surprised themselves, they are not normally allowed to post IQ revealing pictures when reviewing a pre-production camera. They are impressed with the IQ, considering it not being a production model. They conclude that Fuji will have to do something pretty drastic (i.e. muck it up) for this not to qualify as a groundbreaking camera when it comes on to the market.

EDIT: Forgot to say, the pictures are legit. They are taken in and around Oslo.

nightfly
01-25-2011, 09:45
I have a hunch that a lot of DSLR owners buy them BECAUSE they are big and look "professional". Small cameras seem unmasculine or something. Also a lot people need or think they need huge zooms. Walk around one day and count how many DSLRs you see with prime lenses on them.

It is a niche market for sure but perhaps the DSLR market is so saturated that the big guys are going to have to look to niche markets to keep growing.

I saw some stat recently that the m4/3 market is about 5% in the US but about 40% in Japan. So maybe Fuji is really aiming at their home market and those of us in the rest of the world, the US in particular, are just unintended beneficiaries.

ALN
01-25-2011, 09:45
Making pre-orders... haha :angel:

Hmmmm. Or deleteing some of their old posts? ;)

Seriously though, if this camera is not someone`s cup of tea, it may appeal
to others (like me). So why waste your own time peeing on others`
enthusiasm? If you do not like something, just do not buy it.
Choice is good.

Regards,
Al

wjlapier
01-25-2011, 09:50
The Norwegian guy answered questions here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1012&thread=37552213

(I can't wait to hear the reactions to this)

"hueur wrote:

Thank you.

And what about AF speed ?
Kinda slow, to be honest, and not at all the responsiveness I'm hoping for in the final version, but I think this is one area where much will be done to improve performance towards launch."

Not what I wanted to hear, but i'm not looking for blazingly fast AF like in my D700. The way the camera feels is good to hear.

Frankie
01-25-2011, 09:53
......Seriously though, if this camera is not someone`s cup of tea, it may appeal to others (like me). So why waste your own time peeing on others`enthusiasm? If you do not like something, just do not buy it.
Choice is good.......

Hear, hear...

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 09:57
I saw some stat recently that the m4/3 market is about 5% in the US but about 40% in Japan. So maybe Fuji is really aiming at their home market and those of us in the rest of the world, the US in particular, are just unintended beneficiaries.

No doubt about it. One look at Tokyo Camera Style lets you know Japan is an entirely different market.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 09:58
Awww, he said the AF was "kind of slow, to be honest". Hopefully it does improve by launch.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 10:07
The Norwegian guy answered questions here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1012&thread=37552213

(I can't wait to hear the reactions to this)

Interesting to read. I cannot believe how whiny the dpreview forum is. Makes me appreciate RFF.

divewizard
01-25-2011, 10:08
This is not really a rangefinder. It is an autofocus point-and-shoot with a fancy viewfinder and some manual controls.

One of the reasons to still shoot manual focus cameras is the complete control over the focus position that you do not get with autofocus, especially in low light situations.

Until we know how well this camera works in low light, I personally would not part with my money for it.

The last digital camera I bought was a Fuji W1 3D. I have been very disappointed with the W1. The focus on the two sides does not match. I had to send the first one back it was so bad it was not even usable stopped down. The camera has some nice feature including the display, but they do not make up for the piss poor performance.

I truly like my Fuji 6X9s, but I am in no rush to buy the X100. I will wait and see if you early adopters are happy or think you wasted your money.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 10:38
It is an autofocus point-and-shoot with a fancy viewfinder and some manual controls.

That would mean any DSLR is a point and shoot right?

divewizard
01-25-2011, 10:40
That would mean any DSLR is a point and shoot right?

No they have focus screens and do not use the ccd for fast focusing. I was thinking more like my Olympus 5060. The Olympus 5060 is a very nice camera, but very slow.

Frank Petronio
01-25-2011, 10:50
My only concern is how to save up for the 21mm and 50mm versions.

Jamie Pillers
01-25-2011, 11:01
I don't know what a proper definition of a rangefinder camera is.. and who cares, really.
However, the Fuji does have manual focusing, using a ring around the lens (how retro!). So... is this any less a rangefinder than, say, the Contax G cameras?

The Fuji: optical or electronic viewfinder; lots of room around the framelines for us eyeglass wearers; auto or manual focus; quiet shutter; adjustable ISO and whitebalance on the fly; a fast enough 35mm lens; and a body shape of classic proportions. Assuming image quality proves to be excellent for 8x10 prints... PERFECT for me. Thanks Fuji!

sper
01-25-2011, 11:16
The Fuji Guy's twitter says the Norwegian review was unauthorized....uh oohhh.

jsrockit
01-25-2011, 11:27
Assuming image quality proves to be excellent for 8x10 prints... PERFECT for me. Thanks Fuji!

There isn't much out there, with regard to digital cameras, that can't do a 8x10 print at this point...

Arjay
01-25-2011, 11:50
The Fuji Guy's twitter says the Norwegian review was unauthorized....uh oohhh.
Interesting info - so we can assume that this is a trade show sample that might have been floating around with FujiFilm reps for a while. Consequence: The camera's firmware status might be long outdated in reference to where Fuji internal firmware development might stand right now.

It's too early to whine and worry.

ibcrewin
01-25-2011, 11:58
I think it looks pretty cool. Aside from that it's hard to pass judgement without actually holding it and taking pictures with it. I was all gaga about the Canon G10 once, but when I actually used it, while it was nice, it wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That said, I definitely want to check it out.

semilog
01-25-2011, 11:58
One area Fuji have definitely been cloudy on is the sensor, which some people suggested was an old D90 sensor (and not a new D7000 aka new Sony sensor) due to the 12 mp, though Fuji have said they designed it themselves we don't know if they designed a tweak from the stock sensor or what.

Both the D90 and D7000 sensors are Sony, as it are Pentax K-x and K-5. just slightly different generations. I'd be delighted with a D90 sensor.

The Fuji-specific customization (whether it's a Sony or something else) is the eccentric microlens array, similar to that used on the M8/M9.

tapesonthefloor
01-25-2011, 12:36
The tweet mentioned above (http://twitter.com/fujiguys/status/29973486285885441), complete with Russell Peters reference.

The Windows 7 ad mentioned above (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXVPwLLXHM), and why Frankie is owed an apology.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 12:42
The tweet mentioned above (http://twitter.com/fujiguys/status/29973486285885441), complete with Russell Peters reference.

The Windows 7 ad mentioned above (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXVPwLLXHM), and why Frankie is owed an apology.

What would I apologize for? I asked him nicely to stop posting the phrase. I don't watch TV, RFF is an international forum where Microsoft doesn't advertise in every country even if I did, and once you post a "joke" more than 3-4x it starts to get old.

I was pretty sure it wasn't authorized. I wonder what in the world Fuji Norway was thinking? One would imagine to check with Fuji HQ before giving a no-holds-barred preview with an out of date prototype. Wonder if someone was trying to make a point or get even for something?

tapesonthefloor
01-25-2011, 13:05
He wasn't making a joke, he was making a point using the tools at his disposal. You misunderstood/overreacted. This is a forum full of kind, sensible people. Kind, sensible people occasionally apologize for misunderstandings.

But it's up to you. I can't say I'm that bothered either way. I appreciate both your contributions to this forum.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 13:23
He wasn't making a joke, he was making a point using the tools at his disposal. You misunderstood/overreacted. This is a forum full of kind, sensible people. Kind, sensible people occasionally apologize for misunderstandings.

But it's up to you. I can't say I'm that bothered either way. I appreciate both your contributions to this forum.

Well I'm sorry I didn't get it, because if I had known the reference, it wouldn't be so bothersome.

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 13:39
Interesting follow up quote by the Norwegian guy:

I haven't played around much with a DP1, but I did play a bit with a pre-production X1, which was painfully slow. The X100 felt MUCH more responsive. When I said the AF wasn't too fast, I meant that compared to the best enthusiast/semipro dSLRs. I'd say the X100 AF is at least on a par with Oly's E-P1 etc, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be faster in the end product. Fujifilm has previously promised an AF-speed of 0,16 sec on the X100, which is the same as on their F300 EXR (even though X100 won't have the hybrid AF from the F300 EXR).

JohnnyT
01-25-2011, 14:02
So Far, I like what I see...

The IQ is good...

But what is also very important to me is the dynamic range...

I want to see RAW!

RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW RAW!!!!!

kevin m
01-25-2011, 14:49
Realize that the majority of DSLR owners are novice amateurs ....

Well then they're not the "thoughtful photographers" I was talking about. I was thinking serious amateurs and/or professionals. :)

Time will tell if Fuji has this camera dialed in or not, but IF they do, then it's appeal is going to be broader than "niche." Semi-serious amateurs; pros tired or carrying a Canikon on vacation; retro fetishists; the shiny-new-object lovers. This camera crosses a bunch of lines.

Keith
01-25-2011, 14:58
I see a quaint problem with this camera and that's that in the hands of a professional photographer he will just be another voyeur in the crowd with a point and shoot digicam. In some situations this is great but not all where sometimes the presence of a DSLR lets people know your purpose and you are given the space you require accordingly.

That last paragraph is slightly tongue in cheek ... but it's also partially true. :p

tapesonthefloor
01-25-2011, 15:21
Wow, there is some softness in the corners, as well as chromatic aberration. I wonder if they made too many IQ sacrifices for the sake of a compact lens, a la the Olympus XA. This is taken from a post of Aetius's on dpreview.com, the preceding number being the ISO:

200: http://images.gfx.no/787/787627/fujifilm_x100_hk_00200.jpg
400: http://images.gfx.no/787/787628/fujifilm_x100_hk_00400.jpg
800: http://images.gfx.no/787/787629/fujifilm_x100_hk_00800.jpg
1600: http://images.gfx.no/787/787630/fujifilm_x100_hk_01600.jpg
3200: http://images.gfx.no/787/787631/fujifilm_x100_hk_03200.jpg
6400: http://images.gfx.no/787/787632/fujifilm_x100_hk_06400.jpg
12800: http://images.gfx.no/787/787633/fujifilm_x100_hk_12800.jpg

Keith
01-25-2011, 15:23
I photograph gallery openings for an educational arts institute occasionally and I usually encounter patrons with point and shoots throughout the evening. When I had the M8 they seemed oblivious to suddenly stepping in front of me as I was about to take a shot but since switching to a D700 it just doesn't happen ... ever!

I reckon the Fuji would be perfect for these events because I currently use the Nikon with a 35mm f2 and 3200 and sometimes 6400 ISO ... so it would do exactly what the D700 does at a fraction of the size and weight. (and cost)

Maybe I could hang a hollowed out DSLR around my neck as a decoy! :D

Cheers ...

videogamemaker
01-25-2011, 15:26
Wow, there is some softness in the corners, as well as chromatic aberration. I wonder if they made too many IQ sacrifices for the sake of a compact lens, a la the Olympus XA. This is taken from a post of Aetius's on dpreview.com, the preceding number being the ISO:


Sorry, I´m not seeing it. I mean, I see the presence of what you are mentioning, but I am not seeing it at a worrisome or problematic setting. The CA lightroom will easily cleanup, and the corner softness looks negligible. That iso 6400 is literally jaw-dropping in terms of cleanness and details.

If anything, these examples have made me want the camera more. Coming from a 5D these have both less noise, and seemingly sharper resolving power.

nightfly
01-25-2011, 15:31
I'm not saying the pro look doesn't work or that professionals don't need a nice DSLR, I'm just saying that I think a lot of soccer dads buy a DSLR aspirationally.

No intent to offend actual professionals.

Jamie Pillers
01-25-2011, 15:38
Yes, but they don't have a (potentially) great viewfinder system, fast lens, lots of manual adjustments on the outside of the camera... etc.. The Fuji, I believe, will definitely be seen as something special in the development of useful digital cameras.

shashinka-ichiban
01-25-2011, 16:24
I see a quaint problem with this camera and that's that in the hands of a professional photographer he will just be another voyeur in the crowd with a point and shoot digicam. In some situations this is great but not all where sometimes the presence of a DSLR lets people know your purpose and you are given the space you require accordingly.

That last paragraph is slightly tongue in cheek ... but it's also partially true. :p

Glad it was tongue and cheek, cause there'd be a lot of wjhizzed off M8-M9 guys out there reading this. :D

Interesting follow up quote by the Norwegian guy:

I haven't played around much with a DP1, but I did play a bit with a pre-production X1, which was painfully slow. The X100 felt MUCH more responsive. When I said the AF wasn't too fast, I meant that compared to the best enthusiast/semipro dSLRs. I'd say the X100 AF is at least on a par with Oly's E-P1 etc, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be faster in the end product. Fujifilm has previously promised an AF-speed of 0,16 sec on the X100, which is the same as on their F300 EXR (even though X100 won't have the hybrid AF from the F300 EXR).

I pray that the X100's AF is better than the E-P1. I recall the AF speed on the E-P1 was one of it's biggest complaints/drawbacks.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 17:11
Wow, there is some softness in the corners, as well as chromatic aberration. I wonder if they made too many IQ sacrifices for the sake of a compact lens, a la the Olympus XA. This is taken from a post of Aetius's on dpreview.com, the preceding number being the ISO:

200: http://images.gfx.no/787/787627/fujifilm_x100_hk_00200.jpg
400: http://images.gfx.no/787/787628/fujifilm_x100_hk_00400.jpg
800: http://images.gfx.no/787/787629/fujifilm_x100_hk_00800.jpg
1600: http://images.gfx.no/787/787630/fujifilm_x100_hk_01600.jpg
3200: http://images.gfx.no/787/787631/fujifilm_x100_hk_03200.jpg
6400: http://images.gfx.no/787/787632/fujifilm_x100_hk_06400.jpg
12800: http://images.gfx.no/787/787633/fujifilm_x100_hk_12800.jpg

From those samples, the lens looks really good. Typically any lens is going to have some minor faults wide open.

Those samples are crazy crazy crazy. Looks like it blows my 5d into the weeds for noise performance.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 17:13
I pray that the X100's AF is better than the E-P1. I recall the AF speed on the E-P1 was one of it's biggest complaints/drawbacks.

Actually on current firmware the e-p1 is quite fast. Faster than any of the small sensored compacts like g11/g12/s95/lx5 etc.

Quash
01-25-2011, 17:47
What Fujiguys actually tweeted about Norwegian review was:
"Fujiguys: #Fuji X100 review from Norwegian website is unauthorized by Tokyo. Somebody's gonna get a hurt, real bad...."

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 18:14
What Fujiguys actually tweeted about Norwegian review was:
"Fujiguys: #Fuji X100 review from Norwegian website is unauthorized by Tokyo. Somebody's gonna get a hurt, real bad...."

Pity, because the sample images show amazing noise performance and that it has a great lens... Makes me even more excited considering it's without a doubt a barely functioning test mule!

tapesonthefloor
01-25-2011, 18:46
From those samples, the lens looks really good. Typically any lens is going to have some minor faults wide open.

Those samples were shot at ƒ/5.6.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 19:01
Those samples were shot at ƒ/5.6.

Not those ones - they're sharp as a tack.

These ones (f/2) -

http://images.gfx.no/786/786608/DSCF3373.JPG.jpg
http://images.gfx.no/786/786602/DSCF3365.JPG.jpg
http://images.gfx.no/786/786600/DSCF3362.JPG.jpg
http://images.gfx.no/786/786601/DSCF3364.JPG.jpg

Reminds me of my zeiss 35mm f2 distagon, but the fujinon seems less harsh in rendition.

shashinka-ichiban
01-25-2011, 19:56
Not those ones - they're sharp as a tack.

These ones (f/2) -

http://images.gfx.no/786/786608/DSCF3373.JPG.jpg
http://images.gfx.no/786/786602/DSCF3365.JPG.jpg
http://images.gfx.no/786/786600/DSCF3362.JPG.jpg
http://images.gfx.no/786/786601/DSCF3364.JPG.jpg

Reminds me of my zeiss 35mm f2 distagon, but the fujinon seems less harsh in rendition.

I wonder which color mode those images were taken with as the X100 is suppose to replicate Fuji's films, ec, Provia, Sensia, Velvia and etc...

bwcolor
01-25-2011, 20:39
The third one looks really good. The depth of field must be pretty narrow and the corners are beyond the primary focus distance.

gavinlg
01-25-2011, 21:20
I wonder which color mode those images were taken with as the X100 is suppose to replicate Fuji's films, ec, Provia, Sensia, Velvia and etc...

It was apparently a barely working body so probably none of the above. The images look completely unsharpened to me.

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 01:13
Those samples were shot at ƒ/5.6.

That corner softness, while regrettable, is not that big a deal. I took the one of the Trees and snow with winding path into photoshop and went through my normal sharpening procedures. In an image like that I might crop off just a little of the upper edges, but most of the time the extreme corners are either out of focus background, or sky that doesn't matter. The few times there is something like a tree or wire that shows off this corner softness, the rest of the image is plenty sharp to crop away a little if you need flawless edge to edges sharpness.

I see it, but it doesn't worry me. That is one aspect though that I doubt will improve at all by launch, since it's related to the lens design.

Anyone else notice any vignetting? Me neither! Seems to be none whatsoever.


From those samples, the lens looks really good. Typically any lens is going to have some minor faults wide open.

Those samples are crazy crazy crazy. Looks like it blows my 5d into the weeds for noise performance.

I know, right? That ISO 6400 looks like 1600 on the 5D. I asked the reviewer by email if he had any low light shots, but he said no because it was too cold out at night, haha. I did however take a few of them and increase exposure 4+ stops and didn't notice any banding, even on the 6400 shot. Noise? yes. Banding? no.

Glad I saved all the example images, as they've been removed from the article. Seems the links still work though, which I believe most are in this thread.

jsrockit
01-26-2011, 05:04
Wow, there is some softness in the corners, as well as chromatic aberration. I wonder if they made too many IQ sacrifices for the sake of a compact lens, a la the Olympus XA.

A little too soon to jump to conclusion based on unauthorized photos from a barely working camera.

tapesonthefloor
01-26-2011, 07:01
Glad I saved all the example images, as they've been removed from the article. Seems the links still work though, which I believe most are in this thread.

All (most?) of the links seem to be down now, too. I didn't save the full versions of the en plein air sample images, but I do have all the comparison zooms (motherboard, garbage bin) archived if anyone wants them.

alien8
01-26-2011, 08:44
I got to this thread a bit late. If anyone can point to a mirror I'd be much obliged.

tapesonthefloor
01-26-2011, 09:05
Here is a rough imgur gallery of the samples and comparisons:

http://imgur.com/a/rwm7f#49JK7

Let me know if that doesn't work. The order's a mess, but they're all appropriately labeled.

Frankie
01-26-2011, 09:18
The jog dial is for adjusting the Fn setting, as I've said multiple times. It's very unlikely it will be initially set to adjust zone focusing, and from what's been released so far, I don't think zone focusing presets will be possible with any button combo on the X100.

I had long ago joked with other posters that I had committed the X100 specs to memory...if not perfect memory. I love a link to someplace where your remarks originate.

All we know so far is that the <Fn> button can be used to call up a favourite menu function...and default set to ISO choices [thus also user assignable].

I have never read anywhere since Photokina at day-zero that the "convenient command lever" [Fuji] or now called "jog" lever [dpreview] is dedicated to, or locked-step with the <Fn> button.

Supposed the jog lever is so lock-linked, but if within the menu there is a preset focal distance option...or other multiple-choice options...wouldn't the idea still work?

[I, for one, is not prone to frequent ISO changes.]

Zone focusing is really just causing the lens motorized IF sub-system to set the lens at a prescribed encoder position...thereby providing the desired DoF within an f-stop...why wouldn't it work?

See also: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1505329#post1505329

alien8
01-26-2011, 10:03
Thanks! High iso quality looks great.

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 10:09
I had long ago joked with other posters that I had committed the X100 specs to memory...if not perfect memory. I love a link to someplace where your remarks originate.

All we know so far is that the <Fn> button can be used to call up a favourite menu function...and default set to ISO choices [thus also user assignable].

I have never read anywhere since Photokina at day-zero that the "convenient command lever" [Fuji] or now called "jog" lever [dpreview] is dedicated to, or locked-step with the <Fn> button.

Supposed the jog lever is so lock-linked, but if within the menu there is a preset focal distance option...or other multiple-choice options...wouldn't the idea still work?

[I, for one, is not prone to frequent ISO changes.]

Zone focusing is really just causing the lens motorized IF sub-system to set the lens at a prescribed encoder position...thereby providing the desired DoF within an f-stop...why wouldn't it work?

See also: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1505329#post1505329

I know what zone focusing is, and how it would work with the X100.

How about this. If the jog dial does not adjust the Fn commands, I will buy you your filter adapter ring for the X100. If it doesn't, you have to buy me mine.

It doesn't matter if it wasn't listed *specifically* to adjust ISO. It has been listed as adjusting various commands. The Fn button has been listed to bring up various options. The jog dial is where Nikon and most other camera manufacturers put the most used dial. There is no other camera function it could be for other than to adjust the Fn commands. It is closer and more likely than the wheel, and the wheel has definite other labels and design wise will be for the LCD menu diving and selecting.

You're just being pendantic to say "it hasn't been announced, it *could* be the Fn controls, or it could be something else". It is.

Even 5 seconds of thought and reference of all past camera designs points to it.

GSNfan
01-26-2011, 10:22
For those who like to use X100 for street photography, auto ISO with minimum shutter speed would be more useful than a dedicated ISO button. Set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250, set the max ISO to whichever you feel is the peak in IQ and then just shoot like there is no tomorrow.

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 10:25
For those who like to use X100 for street photography, auto ISO with minimum shutter speed would be more useful than a dedicated ISO button. Set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250, set the max ISO to whichever you feel is the peak in IQ and then just shoot like there is no tomorrow.

I agree, and I'm hoping for auto ISO with a maximum limit setting. I asked the Norwegian reviewer, and tweeted this question to Fujiguys, but they said they weren't allowed to answer, and the reviewer said he didn't see that option in his firmware, but that it looked extremely unfinished and could easily have it in the final version.

If there is an auto-ISO, I won't ever have to touch anything but the manual controls, which would be sweet.

*edit* this looks promising! From the S5, the last fuji large sensor camera:

Fujifilm S5 Pro Auto ISO
The Auto ISO is used to set a lower limit in regard to shutter speed and an upper limit in regard to the ISO.

The S200EXR, one of their most recent cameras, has auto ISO with user definable upper and lower limits too.

Welp, looks like it's very likely they will include this in the X100 too.

Frankie
01-26-2011, 10:33
I know what zone focusing is, and how it would work with the X100.

How about this. If the jog dial does not adjust the Fn commands, I will buy you your filter adapter ring for the X100. If it doesn't, you have to buy me mine.

It doesn't matter if it wasn't listed *specifically* to adjust ISO. It has been listed as adjusting various commands. The Fn button has been listed to bring up various options. The jog dial is where Nikon and most other camera manufacturers put the most used dial. There is no other camera function it could be for other than to adjust the Fn commands. It is closer and more likely than the wheel, and the wheel has definite other labels and design wise will be for the LCD menu diving and selecting.

You're just being pendantic to say "it hasn't been announced, it *could* be the Fn controls, or it could be something else". It is.

Even 5 seconds of thought and reference of all past camera designs points to it.

Allow me to repeat the question:

Supposed the jog lever is so lock-linked, but if within the menu there is a preset focal distance option...or other multiple-choice options...wouldn't the idea still work?

GSNfan
01-26-2011, 10:34
I agree, and I'm hoping for auto ISO with a maximum limit setting. I asked the Norwegian reviewer, and tweeted this question to Fujiguys, but they said they weren't allowed to answer, and the reviewer said he didn't see that option in his firmware, but that it looked extremely unfinished and could easily have it in the final version.

If there is an auto-ISO, I won't ever have to touch anything but the manual controls, which would be sweet.

*edit* this looks promising! From the S5, the last fuji large sensor camera:

Fujifilm S5 Pro Auto ISO
The Auto ISO is used to set a lower limit in regard to shutter speed and an upper limit in regard to the ISO.

The S200EXR, one of their most recent cameras, has auto ISO with user definable upper and lower limits too.

Welp, looks like it's very likely they will include this in the X100 too.

Almost all of digital cameras have auto ISO, so I'm sure X100 would have that option as well, the only issue is that their minimum shutter speed is usually 1/60 which is not fast enough. On the other hand you can also set the min shutter speed to 1/30 and get moving objects slightly blurred and stationery objects in full focus.

Maybe while you're waiting for X100, pick a cheap fixed lens RF and a role of film, it would be good practice.

Frankie
01-26-2011, 10:44
Almost all of digital cameras have auto ISO, so I'm sure X100 would have that option as well, the only issue is that their minimum shutter speed is usually 1/60 which is not fast enough.......

An alternative would be auto-ISO with low, medium, and high range options. Easy enough to implement in the firmware but more buttons to push...

Hey, hey, hey..., why not use the Fn+jog to do just that. :D

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 10:45
Allow me to repeat the question:

Supposed the jog lever is so lock-linked, but if within the menu there is a preset focal distance option...or other multiple-choice options...wouldn't the idea still work?

Of course. But seeing as this is at least partially marketed toward the retro nostalgic, rangefinder, street-shooter, don't you think zone focusing presets would have been mentioned by now?

It might be included, it might not. I'd say my personal expectations are 60% not, 40% yes. If it's in, it would most likely be selectable via the jog dial.

What I am certain of is that jog dial being how you adjust the Fn button settings. like 99% certain.

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 10:47
Almost all of digital cameras have auto ISO, so I'm sure X100 would have that option as well, the only issue is that their minimum shutter speed is usually 1/60 which is not fast enough. On the other hand you can also set the min shutter speed to 1/30 and get moving objects slightly blurred and stationery objects in full focus.

Maybe while you're waiting for X100, pick a cheap fixed lens RF and a role of film, it would be good practice.

My 5D doesn't. :-( It also doesn't have the ability to turn off the fake 1/3 stop ISO settings, something my 40D I traded up from did have.

If you think about it, it makes sense now not to have a dedicated ISO dial, since I bet they believe most people will be using auto-ISO. Shutter speed and aperture is adjusted much more often from shot to shot than ISO, even if it's left in manual mode.

Frankie
01-26-2011, 11:07
Of course. But seeing as this is at least partially marketed toward the retro nostalgic, rangefinder, street-shooter, don't you think zone focusing presets would have been mentioned by now?

It might be included, it might not. I'd say my personal expectations are 60% not, 40% yes. If it's in, it would most likely be selectable via the jog dial.

What I am certain of is that jog dial being how you adjust the Fn button settings. like 99% certain.

My interest is not nostalgic, street shooting, or defending the RF faith...

In fact I had posted several alternative methods for zone focusing, including enhancing the unmarked lens ring.

Fuji offered at Day-zero a virtual "focus scale + DoF" in the O/EVF and LCD, it didn't take me "5 seconds" to see that, but unappreciated by many in all the excitement.

Fuji had neglected listing many important aspects of X100 until responding to "inputs" in their web site much later. Fuji has not still, hinted, published or otherwise leaked the menu content and architecture...likely because being finalized.

Using the Fn+jog for eye-level O/EVF adjustment is good for shooting-related functions. Zone focusing immediately came to mind.

A very disappointing and lazy way of dealing with the Fn button is simply use the Fn button for direct accessing a favourite menu item for immediate display in the LCD...say ISO...and use the 4-way back dial for selection...... [I dearly hope not.]

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 11:19
My interest is not nostalgic, street shooting, or defending the RF faith...

Using the Fn+jog for eye-level O/EVF adjustment is good for shooting-related functions. Zone focusing immediately came to mind.

A very disappointing and lazy way of dealing with the Fn button is simply use the Fn button for direct accessing a favourite menu item...say ISO...and use the 4-way back dial for selection...... [I dearly hope not.]

That is why I clearly used the word "partially" to get you to think about their marketing concerns. Snap to zone focusing is part of the Ricoh marketing material, it would make sense to included it in the X100 marketing material based in part in how and who they market it to.

Using the 4-way would indeed be dumb, which is why it's so unlikely, and then it would leave the jog dial to be truly vestigial, yet closer to where the user's thumb would be.

DougFord
01-26-2011, 11:32
Personally, I would want the jog dial DEFAULT setting to be the selector of the preset manual focus distances WHEN the camera is set to manual focus.
Pushing the jog dial left or right would increment/decrement the hard coded distances, i.e. 1m, 2m, 3m etc and would be viewable via the viewfinder. PRESSING the jog dial sets the distance. Any inadvertent nudge of the jog dial would display the change but not PROGRAM the change. After a few seconds, if the jog dial is not PRESSED to enter the 'new' setting then the distance displayed reverts to the programmed setting.
Perhaps while in MANUAL focus mode, pressing the fn button would change the function of the jog dial to an iso selector.
Will there be user customization of the fn/jog dial interface?

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 11:52
Personally, I would want the jog dial DEFAULT setting to be the selector of the preset manual focus distances WHEN the camera is set to manual focus.
Pushing the jog dial left or right would increment/decrement the hard coded distances, i.e. 1m, 2m, 3m etc and would be viewable via the viewfinder. PRESSING the jog dial sets the distance. Any inadvertent nudge of the jog dial would display the change but not PROGRAM the change. After a few seconds, if the jog dial is not PRESSED to enter the 'new' setting then the distance displayed reverts to the programmed setting.
Perhaps while in MANUAL focus mode, pressing the fn button would change the function of the jog dial to an iso selector.
Will there be user customization of the fn/jog dial interface?

Really not clear at this point. That I can recall, only the ISO has been listed as changeable by the Fn key (but I'm sure Frankie will correct me if I'm remembering wrong, as I'd like him to). It might only be a list of normal things like ISO, WB, Movie mode (as Dpreview said it's accessible through the Fn key. Or it could be that it works like a customizable menu where you can put any setting you want into it via the normal menu, then it scrolls through those things.

DougFord
01-26-2011, 12:10
Or it could be that it works like a customizable menu where you can put any setting you want into it via the normal menu, then it scrolls through those things.

This would be my preference. The jog dial defaulting to hard coded distances while the cameras dedicated focus mode switch is in the MF position.
Of the hard coded choices available; default would be MF followed by the zone focus presets. MF designating that the lens focus ring is activated.
This 'focus mode' menu would only be available and visible to the user when the dedicated focus mode switch was set to MF.

Frankie
01-26-2011, 13:32
......I can recall, only the ISO has been listed as changeable by the Fn key (but I'm sure Frankie will correct me if I'm remembering wrong, as I'd like him to).......

The Fujiguys say:

"Fuji X100 function button options, iso (default), preview depth of field, imag size, quality, dynamic range, film sim, nd filter, af, movie"

Read more on PhotoRumors.com: http://photorumors.com/2011/01/18/some-fuji-x100-insider-information/#ixzz1CBArAAIZ (http://photorumors.com/2011/01/18/some-fuji-x100-insider-information/#ixzz1CBArAAIZ)

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 13:38
The Fujiguys say:

"Fuji X100 function button options, iso (default), preview depth of field, imag size, quality, dynamic range, film sim, nd filter, af, movie"

Read more on PhotoRumors.com: http://photorumors.com/2011/01/18/some-fuji-x100-insider-information/#ixzz1CBArAAIZ (http://photorumors.com/2011/01/18/some-fuji-x100-insider-information/#ixzz1CBArAAIZ)

Obviously they could add it later than the firmware in the version Fujiguys have, but wouldn't you think they'd put zone focus snap on that list if it were there?

Frankie
01-26-2011, 14:16
Obviously they could add it later than the firmware in the version Fujiguys have, but wouldn't you think they'd put zone focus snap on that list if it were there?

At Day-zero, I had an urgent need to ascertain that MF is via the lens ring [could be only decorative], and not some weird method like my old Canon G7. You would think Fuji would say that...but no, not until much later. No journalist at Photokina thought to say that either, except a Spanish magazine.

As to the Fujiguys, I took what they had to say with a big grain of salt...self-contradiction is bad in reporting.

If you look at the functions they say assignable to <Fn>, some are read-only [DoF], some require user selection [ISO, image size...].

I classify some camera functions as mission-critical [best assigned to VF, thus Fn+jog], and others as set-up [assignable to LCD+4-way dial].

The debate is not whether I like certain functions, but rather exploring the scanty product info we do have [salt and all]. I have no desire to prove anyone right or wrong.

In that regard, Fuji had compounded the problem of an info-gap. A simple feature listing would do wonders...even notated as "to be finalized" is better than nothing.

I have been doing that since Day-zero...just so to satisfy my own curiosity.

videogamemaker
01-26-2011, 14:30
At Day-zero, I had an urgent need to ascertain that MF is via the lens ring [could be only decorative], and not some weird method like my old Canon G7. You would think Fuji would say that...but no, not until much later. No journalist at Photokina thought to say that either, except a Spanish magazine.

As to the Fujiguys, I took what they had to say with a big grain of salt...self-contradiction is bad in reporting.

If you look at the functions they say assignable to <Fn>, some are read-only [DoF], some require user selection [ISO, image size...].

I classify some camera functions as mission-critical [best assigned to VF, thus Fn+jog], and others as set-up [assignable to LCD+4-way dial].

The debate is not whether I like certain functions, but rather exploring the scanty product info we do have [salt and all]. I have no desire to prove anyone right or wrong.

In that regard, Fuji had compounded the problem of an info-gap. A simple feature listing would do wonders...even notated as "to be finalized" is better than nothing.

I have been doing that since Day-zero...just so to satisfy my own curiosity.

You're right. We'll have to wait and see.

Jorge-AD
01-26-2011, 20:40
I love almost everything I have read about the X-100, except:

1) A 20th of december interview in a spanish webpage with a FujiFilm engineer revealed the X100 team is considering developing a technology that will include both the hybrid focusing system of the new FinePix F300EXR and the phase detection currently in used in the X100:

http://www.quesabesde.com/noticias/fujifilm-finepix-x100-entrevista-hiroshi_kawahara,1_7074

I may be reading too much into it, but it got me thinking the team saw room for improvement in the AF area...

2) "(AF speed) is kinda slow, to be honest, and not at all the responsiveness I'm hoping for in the final version, but I think this is one area where much will be done to improve performance towards launch." Hands on X-100 camera-reviewer at Akam.no comment on dpreview.com

3) And the thing that struck me the most from that dpreview preview was the realization the X-100 has got a big bright front facing AF assist yellow led... So much for low light candid photography !

Other than an enlargement of the central focusing area, akin to ground glass focusing, the X-100 seems to lack any other focusing aid... I really hope they get it right (they got my 1200$ if it focuses as fast as a 600$ DSLR)... but for $ 1200 Fujifilm might as well have put an active AF system a la Hexar AF in there :mad:

gavinlg
01-26-2011, 22:01
2) "(AF speed) is kinda slow, to be honest, and not at all the responsiveness I'm hoping for in the final version, but I think this is one area where much will be done to improve performance towards launch." Hands on X-100 camera-reviewer at Akam.no comment on dpreview.com


He later said that he was referring to the whole firmware of the camera in regards to the responsiveness - being an early test mule. He went as far to say that he had to turn the camera off and on every time he took a shot and the settings would all have been reset. Don't think its a good indication. Also he said the AF was at least as fast as m4/3 cameras.


3) And the thing that struck me the most from that dpreview preview was the realization the X-100 has got a big bright front facing AF assist yellow led... So much for low light candid photography !


In every camera that has one of these you can turn it off.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 01:24
In every camera that has one of these you can turn it off.

And even if it didn't, a piece of black gaffer's tape fixes it.

Honestly AF speed is the one area I am worried about. Could be good, could be sucky, we'll have to wait and see.

migtex
01-27-2011, 01:57
And even if it didn't, a piece of black gaffer's tape fixes it.

Honestly AF speed is the one area I am worried about. Could be good, could be sucky, we'll have to wait and see.
My good and trusty old F11 Finepixes (yes, more than one...) has the same green light to help to focus but you can turn it off, it takes 0,5 more to focus (or put it on High speed shooting - in focus from 3mt to infinite) and has the AUTO ISO too - in the Fn button - see, has been there since ever... it's their heritage.

Still saving for it... and salivating too!
In fact I wondering if I put one of my Nikon F's, D' or S's for sale... :eek::bang:

Nah! just keep saving. ;)

gavinlg
01-27-2011, 02:40
And even if it didn't, a piece of black gaffer's tape fixes it.

Honestly AF speed is the one area I am worried about. Could be good, could be sucky, we'll have to wait and see.

I'm going to take an educated guess here and say it's going to be about the same as a gf1/gf2 with a fast lens like the 20mm f1.7. It's using the same focusing system and they haven't made any noise about it, so it's not going to be DSLR fast, but will be easily sufficient for most uses. So basically not high end DSLR fast by any means, but useably fast. I used an e-p1 w/17mm pancake for a while and was satisfied with how it focused on the latest firmware - even in low light... I can't really see the x100 being much faster, and I doubt it will be any slower.

Spyro
01-27-2011, 03:02
Honestly AF speed is the one area I am worried about.

I wish it didnt have AF at all, AF is the only reason why it doesnt have a mechanical focus ring. And with such a wide lens, AF is as useful to me as A/C is useful to eskimos.

rxmd
01-27-2011, 03:13
I wish it didnt have AF at all, AF is the only reason why it doesnt have a mechanical focus ring.

Doesn't it?

jsrockit
01-27-2011, 03:20
I hope you are right fdigital... I can live with that.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 03:21
Doesn't it?

I think he means "mechanically coupled". It's a physical ring, but it's fly-by-wire, and can be changed to rotate CW or CCW depending on your preference.

I'm glad it has AF. Different strokes for different folks. :-)

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 03:22
I'm going to take an educated guess here and say it's going to be about the same as a gf1/gf2 with a fast lens like the 20mm f1.7. It's using the same focusing system and they haven't made any noise about it, so it's not going to be DSLR fast, but will be easily sufficient for most uses. So basically not high end DSLR fast by any means, but useably fast. I used an e-p1 w/17mm pancake for a while and was satisfied with how it focused on the latest firmware - even in low light... I can't really see the x100 being much faster, and I doubt it will be any slower.

Whoah! Is this representative in your mind of the AF speed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP5Gik-x4gc&feature=related

That's delightfully quick. I can totally live with that.

rxmd
01-27-2011, 03:40
I think he means "mechanically coupled".

I've never really understood the crowd of people who want a digital camera, but who want everything about it to be mechanical.

Spyro
01-27-2011, 04:35
I've never really understood the crowd of people who want a digital camera, but who want everything about it to be mechanical.

Ι dont want a digital camera, I was quite happy when there was a Kodak lab in every corner and Konica/Minolta was still around and servicing cameras and scanners. But since the world has decided that film must die and they are forcing digital cameras on us, they may as well build them properly.

The significance of the mechanical ring is that it has an infinity stop, it doesnt turn perpetually. Which means that it can have a tab, which means that with practice, you can focus a camera by feel without even looking through it. Tabs and distance scales on the lens were there for a reason, not for decoration. They offered options that people actually used. And these people are trying to work out how many options they are willing to give up, with your permission and if you dont mind of course. Because we are a little bit excited, digital technology finally caught up with 1970's camera design and managed to squeeze a viewfinder in a sort of compact camera, woohoo.

Peter Irwin
01-27-2011, 04:39
I've never really understood the crowd of people who want a digital camera, but who want everything about it to be mechanical.

I think it is the desire for a user interface that makes us feel comfortable.

I'm not sure that a close mimic of a mechanical film camera is all that logical a choice, but I would like focus, shutter speed and aperture where I can see and feel them easily. The standard 35mm film camera interface does a pretty good job of this. It occurs to me that the Rolleiflex TLR interface is almost entirely different, yet it also feels right and is a delight to use.


Peter.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 04:45
Ι dont want a digital camera, I was quite happy when there was a Kodak lab in every corner and Konica/Minolta was still around and servicing cameras and scanners. But since the world has decided that film must die and they are forcing digital cameras on us, they may as well build them properly.

The significance of the mechanical ring is that it has an infinity stop, it doesnt turn perpetually. Which means that it can have a tab, which means that with practice, you can focus a camera by feel without even looking through it. Tabs and distance scales on the lens were there for a reason, not for decoration. They offered options that people actually used. And these people are trying to work out how many options they are willing to give up, with your permission and if you dont mind of course. Because we are a little bit excited, digital technology finally caught up with 1970's camera design and managed to squeeze a viewfinder in a sort of compact camera, woohoo.

Sorry, but this post makes you a minority. This means the market for people who want this type of thing are small, and the profit margin on each product sold must be much higher. You need to buy an M8 or M9 or RD-1. Those are your choices (if you want a built in OVF). If you want a much cheaper (new) camera, you will have to deal with popular features that ensure more sales, and thus, that lower price point, such as video, autofocus, and a mini-flash.

I feel perfectly confident in saying that overall sales of the X100 would be less with a mechanically coupled focusing ring and no autofocus (especially since the OVF isn't rangefinder coupled, making manual focusing in OVF mode much harder, if not impossible). So while I am sure you, and many others would prefer it that way, the needs of making a profit and the multitude of people who feel opposite to you about AF are going to win out in product design.

Spyro
01-27-2011, 05:04
yes I know I am a minority, and quite comfotrable about it so dont feel sorry. I also couldnt care less (with all due respect) about their profit margins and their accounting, not my problem, I dont have shares in Fuji. They gotta do what they gotta do, if they end up making my kind of camera I'll buy it. If not I already have a bucketload of cameras I love, and kodak is still churning out the good stuff :)

Sparrow
01-27-2011, 05:12
yes I know I am a minority, and quite comfotrable about it so dont feel sorry. I also couldnt care less (with all due respect) about their profit margins and their accounting, not my problem, I dont have shares in Fuji. They gotta do what they gotta do, if they end up making my kind of camera I'll buy it. If not I already have a bucketload of cameras I love, and kodak is still churning out the good stuff :)

Very well reasoned and articulated sir!

gavinlg
01-27-2011, 06:05
Whoah! Is this representative in your mind of the AF speed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP5Gik-x4gc&feature=related

That's delightfully quick. I can totally live with that.

That there is quicker than my 5d and the d700....

This is more what I was thinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uig2uB6LMKE

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 06:59
That there is quicker than my 5d and the d700....

This is more what I was thinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uig2uB6LMKE

Still quite reasonable. Now I'm less worried.

GSNfan
01-27-2011, 07:30
When using the OVF to photograph moving subjects, the picture will only match what was seen through the OVF if there is absolutely minimum shutter lag and AF lock delay. Otherwise with AF lock delay, which is inevitable, combined with shutter lag, there will be a discrepancy with was seen and framed through the OVF and what was captured in the final picture... Anyone who has used a auxiliary VF with a digital camera might know what I'm talking about.

So, for X100's OVF to be actually effective like a RF, there has to be absolute minimum shutter lag (on par with high-end DSLRs) and minimum Af lock delay, or for that matter a really easy to do MF, otherwise the OVF image is never going to match what ends up in the final image... This is not a big deal when photographing stationery subjects, but for street scene and classic RF style of shooting, X100 really has to be fast otherwise it will lose its trump card, which is the OVF functionality.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 07:39
When using the OVF to photograph moving subjects, the picture will only match what was seen through the OVF if there is absolutely minimum shutter lag and AF lock delay. Otherwise with AF lock delay, which is inevitable, combined with shutter lag, there will be a discrepancy with was seen and framed through the OVF and what was captured in the final picture... Anyone who has used a auxiliary VF with a digital camera might know what I'm talking about.

So, for X100's OVF to be actually effective like a RF, there has to be absolute minimum shutter lag (on par with high-end DSLRs) and minimum Af lock delay, or for that matter a really easy to do MF, otherwise the OVF image is never going to match what ends up in the final image... This is not a big deal when photographing stationery subjects, but for street scene and classic RF style of shooting, X100 really has to be fast otherwise it will lose its trump card, which is the OVF functionality.

All signs point to every possible delay happening at the half shutter press. Once the shutter is half pressed, the lag from half press to full press is .01 seconds. That should be fast enough for anyone.

Plus, my 5D and many other cameras have a "fire without AF lock" option, which means it takes the photo when you fully depress the shutter, regardless of if the AF has locked or not. Meaning you always get the image, sometimes blurry, but it's there no matter what, right when you clicked.

For street shooting, I imagine you might need to do a little pre-focusing or zone focusing with the half press, then track the composition with the OVF, and when it's where you want, fully press (the .01 second lag).

Frankie
01-27-2011, 07:40
That there is quicker than my 5d and the d700....

This is more what I was thinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uig2uB6LMKE

Both cameras focus faster than me fussing with an RF patch. The only thing faster is not focusing at all...otherwise called preset zone focusing.

I can live with doing zone focusing in the X100 using MF and the "focal distance + DoF" scale displayable in the LCD or in the O/EVF. Also I will have no hesitation of enhancing the unmarked focusing ring for a couple of chosen f-stops...takes 5 minutes.

I don't mind using AFL and recompose. The button is in the correct place anyway.

Still, if Fuji opt to also enable a preset focal distance function to the Fn+jog combo, I will be delighted.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 07:50
Both cameras focus faster than me fussing with an RF patch. The only thing faster is not focusing at all...otherwise called preset zone focusing.

I can live with doing zone focusing in the X100 using MF and the "focal distance + DoF" scale displayable in the LCD or in the O/EVF. Also I will have no hesitation of enhancing the unmarked focusing ring for a couple of chosen f-stops...takes 5 minutes.

I don't mind using AFL and recompose. The button is in the correct place anyway.

Still, if Fuji opt to also enable a preset focal distance function to the Fn+jog combo, I will be delighted.

How will marking the lens work? Many focus by wire rings can turn indefinitely in either direction, wouldn't it mess up your markings the second you turned "past" the near or far limit?

GSNfan
01-27-2011, 07:58
All signs point to every possible delay happening at the half shutter press. Once the shutter is half pressed, the lag from half press to full press is .01 seconds. That should be fast enough for anyone.

Plus, my 5D and many other cameras have a "fire without AF lock" option, which means it takes the photo when you fully depress the shutter, regardless of if the AF has locked or not. Meaning you always get the image, sometimes blurry, but it's there no matter what, right when you clicked.

For street shooting, I imagine you might need to do a little pre-focusing or zone focusing with the half press, then track the composition with the OVF, and when it's where you want, fully press (the .01 second lag).

I had mentioned in another post that Nikon D3 has a .08 second of shutter lag... Now in case X100 is the first compact that has a shutter lag on D3 scale of digital cameras with 0.01, that would be a paradigm changing innovation, but unfortunately i highly doubt that.

But once again, the AF has to be very fast and accurate for X100 to match the OVF framing. The manual focus option does not look very promising with X100 so AF speed is crucial if someone wants to shoot the lens wide open for moving subjects... But even if one shoots in zone focus to not engage AF, that would mean only shooting at F8 and above to get a decent dof, shooting wide open gets ruled out and so is low light shooting.

But I guess in a nutshell what I'm trying to get at is for X100's OVF to be effective like a RF, it has to have the shutter lag of a Nikon D3 and the AF speed and accuracy of a Nikon D3 as well.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 08:05
I had mentioned in another post that Nikon D3 has a .08 second of shutter lag... Now in case X100 is the first compact that has a shutter lag on D3 scale of digital cameras with 0.01, that would be a paradigm changing innovation, but unfortunately i highly doubt that.

But once again, the AF has to be very fast and accurate for X100 to match the OVF framing. The manual focus option does not look very promising with X100 so AF speed is crucial if someone wants to shoot the lens wide open for moving subjects... But even if one shoots in zone focus to not engage AF, that would mean only shooting at F8 and above to get a decent dof, shooting wide open gets ruled out and so is low light shooting.

But I guess in a nutshell what I'm trying to get at is for X100's OVF to be effective like a RF, it has to have the shutter lag of a Nikon D3 and the AF speed and accuracy of a Nikon D3 as well.

Well if you're going to doubt their released numbers, there is nothing I can say to convince you. Keep in mind that no modern camera has used an in lens 4 leaf shutter like the X100. It's completely possible they bypassed the previous speeds of huge curtain shutters on a dslr with a mirror that has to move.

The actual AF speed and your shooting style is going to come into play, but I've used a slow focusing lens before on my dslr, and it very rarely gave me trouble with my shooting style.

Frankie
01-27-2011, 08:10
How will marking the lens work? Many focus by wire rings can turn indefinitely in either direction, wouldn't it mess up your markings the second you turned "past" the near or far limit?

This was what I wrote:
The lens barrel has one fixed red reference mark for the apertures, which can also be used as a reference mark for zone focusing.

The way I would do it is this:

Color-code the aperture numbers. [A tried-and-true method for 3 decades is to fill in the engraved f-numbers with grease pencil then finger rub off the excess. Believe it or not, the fillings rubs off clean with water on a Q-tip.]
Color-code the focusing ring position with corresponding color Sharpies. [The ring has fine gear-like knurls that would protect the colors.] A DoF table will tell you where the sweet spot is.]
Use the focal distance scale in the O/EVF to set the ring position. [At f5.6, the lens will have a DoF from 6~28'; and at f8 from 5~118'...pick the mid-field distances or any personal-biased points would be fine.]Remembering the DoF numbers is not hard...from "5 or 6' near, to 28' and well beyond"; enough for street candids. How about 5.6~23...5 or 6' near to 23' far, for 5.6 aperture in the 23mm lens. [I use the same method even for lenses with focal distance and DoF markings...just set the lens at the pre-determined distance marking...]

Set camera at manual focus and shoot. Simple really.
It is true the focusing ring might turn and turn if not in MF mode [but might also have a dead-stop]. But given the lens FL and in MF mode, the turn might only be half a 360-degree. Besides, my method is not to use the DoF scale, but use a personal preset focal distance [given a chosen f-stop]

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 08:18
This was what I wrote:
The lens barrel has one fixed red reference mark for the apertures, which can also be used as a reference mark for zone focusing.

The way I would do it is this:

Color-code the aperture numbers. [A tried-and-true method for 3 decades is to fill in the engraved f-numbers with grease pencil then finger rub off the excess. Believe it or not, the fillings rubs off clean with water on a Q-tip.]
Color-code the focusing ring position with corresponding color Sharpies. [The ring has fine gear-like knurls that would protect the colors.] A DoF table will tell you where the sweet spot is.]
Use the focal distance scale in the O/EVF to set the ring position. [At f5.6, the lens will have a DoF from 6~28'; and at f8 from 5~118'...pick the mid-field distances or any personal-biased points would be fine.]Remembering the DoF numbers is not hard...from "5 or 6' near, to 28' and well beyond"; enough for street candids. How about 5.6~23...5 or 6' near to 23' far, for 5.6 aperture in the 23mm lens. [I use the same method even for lenses with focal distance and DoF markings...just set the lens at the pre-determined distance marking...]

Set camera at manual focus and shoot. Simple really.
It is true the focusing ring might turn and turn if not in MF mode [but might also have a dead-stop]. But given the lens FL and in MF mode, the turn might only be half a 360-degree. Besides, my method is not to use the DoF scale, but use a personal preset focal distance [given a chosen f-stop]

We will have to see if it can rotate indefinitely, but most focus by wire, and even some coupled rings (like on Canon L lenses) can rotate forever.

If that proves to be the case, won't that wreck your lens rings color coding? I knew most of what you wrote, and I can see how that would work on a mechanically coupled focusing ring missing dof markings, but I don't think that works on a ring that is decoupled completely from the mechanism and just provides turn bytes to the focus motor.

Frankie
01-27-2011, 08:27
We will have to see if it can rotate indefinitely, but most focus by wire, and even some coupled rings (like on Canon L lenses) can rotate forever.

If that proves to be the case, won't that wreck your lens rings color coding? I knew most of what you wrote, and I can see how that would work on a mechanically coupled focusing ring missing dof markings, but I don't think that works on a ring that is decoupled completely from the mechanism and just provides turn bytes to the focus motor.

Further down in the same thread, I wrote:
I do believe the X100 lens is focus-by-wire [and internal], which is another way of saying inside the lens barrel is a rotary encoder with an infinity dead-stop at 12 o'clock position.

When AF is selected, the lens module is controlled by the firmware and focused-by-wire internally without causing the outer focusing ring to also auto-rotate.

When Manual Focus is selected, the encoder position is instantly read and lens immediately refocused [by wire] at whatever focal distance the lens focus ring happened to be at. There after focusing [still by wire] is a direct firmware reaction to new ring position.

You can almost see the encoder marking in the lens module picture. [Take apart a computer mouse and look at the turbine-like scroll-wheel encoder.]
And a little later:
Focus-by-wire translates down to the number of [I]encoder counts per complete 360-degree rotation and the thread pitch of the focus drive motor shaft. For example, if the encoder is a 360-count unit, and the thread pitch is 0.5mm, then the internal focus increment will be 0.00138mm per count...1.4u focal distance change per count is very fine, but step-by-step. [I have used encoders as fine as 1200 counts per revolutions...]

In comparison, typical helicoid pitch is very coarse...but supports continuous motion.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 09:16
It's not me mis-remembering your past posts, it's you not reading what I'm asking. I understand how focus by wire works, the problem is that you are assuming a hard stop at 12 o'clock. The vast majority of focus by wire lenses do not have this feature.

Check this video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntdLuTHckPY It looks like he rotates the focusing ring far more than 360 degrees at two different times.

Marks on the focusing ring are going to be useless if there is no hard stop, and all signs point to there not being one.

Frankie
01-27-2011, 09:44
It's not me mis-remembering your past posts, it's you not reading what I'm asking. I understand how focus by wire works, the problem is that you are assuming a hard stop at 12 o'clock. The vast majority of focus by wire lenses do not have this feature.

Check this video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntdLuTHckPY It looks like he rotates the focusing ring far more than 360 degrees at two different times.

Marks on the focusing ring are going to be useless if there is no hard stop, and all signs point to there not being one.

It is really not understanding how an encoder works that caused a lot of questions...you are not the only one in RFF.

Encoders are available in rotary or linear forms. Rotary encoder can only rotate 360-degrees...period.

[Liner encoders are essentially a very fine scale and EXPENSIVE, unlikely being used within a lens, else there will have to be a mechanical coupling between the ring and encoder "read-head"].

In AF mode, rotating the focusing ring around and around means nothing.

In any case, rotating the lens ring around and around simply means restarting at the 0-degree position whether you intend to or not. The 0-degree position can be marked or unmarked, hard-stopped or not. Whether the X100 focusing ring can rotate clockwise or counter-clockwise is immaterial...it is still limited to 360-degrees.

So, all you need to do is to selection clockwise or counter-clockwise mode; set desired focal distances and mark the focusing ring.

And, if the X100 only needs 165-degrees to focus from infinity to near limit, then the firmware can and will have to also place any arbitrary ring position to the nearest effective position [and that was how encoders are reset to zero positions in engineering applications].

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 10:16
It is really not understanding how an encoder works that caused a lot of questions...you are not the only one in RFF.

Encoders are available in rotary or linear forms. Rotary encoder can only rotate 360-degrees...period.

[Liner encoders are essentially a very fine scale and EXPENSIVE, unlikely being used within a lens, else there will have to be a mechanical coupling between the ring and encoder "read-head"].

In AF mode, rotating the focusing ring around and around means nothing.

In any case, rotating the lens ring around and around simply means restarting at the 0-degree position whether you intend to or not. The 0-degree position can be marked or unmarked, hard-stopped or not. Whether the X100 focusing ring can rotate clockwise or counter-clockwise is immaterial...it is still limited to 360-degrees.

So, all you need to do is to selection clockwise or counter-clockwise mode; set desired focal distances and mark the focusing ring.

And, if the X100 only needs 165-degrees to focus from infinity to near limit, then the firmware can and will have to also place any arbitrary ring position to the nearest effective position [and that was how encoders are reset to zero positions in engineering applications].

That's all very well and good, but it's not going to work like you think. If you place a mark on the focus ring, it could be focused at 1 meter right now, and then correspond to 5 meters in 20 minutes after rotations, mode changes, on/off, etc.

I don't know if you've ever used lenses that aren't mechanically coupled or not, but there are so many that can rotate forever, and plenty that have clutches. I have never seen a fly-by-wire lens on a camera or video-camera that has a specific degree rotation hard linked to a focus distance. Ever.

It is very likely for the focus ring to only pass on when it's being rotated, in which direction, and by how much. The lens is not going to pop to a certain focusing distance when it's switched to MF mode, it will stay exactly where it is till the lens is rotated. Focusing marks on the focusing ring will be useless.

Frankie
01-27-2011, 11:09
That's all very well and good, but it's not going to work like you think. If you place a mark on the focus ring, it could be focused at 1 meter right now, and then correspond to 5 meters in 20 minutes after rotations, mode changes, on/off, etc.

I don't know if you've ever used lenses that aren't mechanically coupled or not, but there are so many that can rotate forever, and plenty that have clutches. I have never seen a fly-by-wire lens on a camera or video-camera that has a specific degree rotation hard linked to a focus distance. Ever.

It is very likely for the focus ring to only pass on when it's being rotated, in which direction, and by how much. The lens is not going to pop to a certain focusing distance when it's switched to MF mode, it will stay exactly where it is till the lens is rotated. Focusing marks on the focusing ring will be useless.

Except fixed infinity-focus lens [such as aerial camera lenses I spend my career in], all lens focal positional changes, whether via a railing system or helical rotation are related to focal and focus distance changes within its design range. A distance marking on the lens barrel is, in effect, a way of encoding focal distances; likewise with markings on camera monorails.

Indeed, and as I have already said, when switching to MF, the lens IF unit will focus the lens at wherever the ring [encoded] position is at...whether you intended it or not. That position could be infinity or closest focus position [depending on whichever end is is at the closest angular position to the arbitrary focusing ring encoded position, or might just happens to be within the effective range and at 14.271m].



Then you set your intended focal distance manually and leave the ring alone. If firmware allows, set a couple more zones. [That was why I posted long ago that the ability to also set far and near zones via the Fn+jog is desirable... having three preset zones is better than just one.]

The whole point about zone focusing is [I]not to refocus the lens after it is set...allow DoF to cover the intended scene depth. So set the lens at the mid-point or your sweet spot in that DoF zone. The OVF is always in focus and won't distract framing acuity...essence of RF street photography.

As to the X100 IF specifics, no one knows except Fuji. However, I start posting about zone focusing via encoders only after seeing the picture of the Fuji lens unit. The marking of the lens ring is only one shorthand method.

I simply apply basic encoder engineering.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 11:35
Indeed, and as I have already said, when switching to MF, the lens IF unit will focus the lens at wherever the ring [encoded] position is at...whether you intended it or not.

We're both just posting our own opinions, but if it works like every other focus by wire lens on consumer cameras, this is just not how it works. You will switch to MF mode and the lens is going to sit there, no moving, no focus change whatsoever. It will wait till you rotate the focus ring to move, and it's not going to snap even then, it will start to slowly focus in the direction you are moving it. It provides rotational change data, not absolute position in rotation.

V V V what this man said V V V V

Arjay
01-27-2011, 11:37
Indeed, and as I have already said, when switching to MF, the lens IF unit will focus the lens at wherever the ring [encoded] position is at...whether you intended it or not. That position could be infinity or closest focus position [depending on whichever end is is at the closest angular position to the arbitrary focusing ring encoded position, or might just happens to be within the effective range and at 14.271m].
Your statement above assumes that the focusing ring features absolute position encoding, i.e. that the ring will contain a unique position code which establishes a unique relation between one lens focus position and one ring position.

While I agree that this would be nice, it would have two disadvantages:
Assembling the focus ring would become much more complex in production.
If the lens is operated via autofocus, the lens will be moved independently from the ring's position (There are compelling indications that this will indeed be the case). So, any subsequent operation on the focusing ring could possibly cause the optics to be moved in a potentially large jump to follow the ring's absolute position. This would result in a very user-unfriendly and intransparent operating behavior.I am quite sure that the focusing ring will rather contain relative position encoding, i.e. it has position clicks, and lens focusing movement will be based (a) on the lense's inital position plus (b) on the number of position clicks that are delivered by the ring's relative encoding. This would also explain why the ring does not contain any position markings, as these would not make sense with relative encoding.

It remains to be seen whether the camera will feature focusing presets for hyperfocal and various zone settings. All of these will be preset electronically, so I cannot see any reason in marking the focussing ring.

tapesonthefloor
01-27-2011, 12:06
Indeed, and as I have already said, when switching to MF, the lens IF unit will focus the lens at wherever the ring [encoded] position is at...whether you intended it or not.

Based on my experience with Nikkor A-M/A lenses, this is quite a leap of logic, and I don't share your confidence. Not only will the lens "start off" in manual focus mode at wherever the AF last left it—thus throwing off your ring's calibration—but on some lenses—...

...damn. I penned that an hour or two then forgot about it. Looks like vgm covered the same ground in a reply, too. Carry on.

Frankie
01-27-2011, 13:22
......It remains to be seen whether the camera will feature focusing presets for hyperfocal and various zone settings. All of these will be preset electronically, so I cannot see any reason in marking the focussing ring.

Exactly.

I only offered ring marking as a substitute to the virtual "Focal Distance + DoF" scale that many do not believe exists...illustrations published by Fuji notwithstanding. I do not understand why using the "FD+DoF" scale in the LCD display to preset a zone is so "un-candid"...the camera would be at waist level as would be in presetting a lens the old fashioned way.

In ring marking, indexing to a known position is always key...howsoever obtained. I and anyone else will know better when Fuji had more to say...hopefully soon.

Benjamin Marks
01-27-2011, 13:44
Isn't it amazing fun to speculate on a camera none of us has seen? The new camera specs are like a Rorschach test for your approach to the promise of new technology. I would submit that the teasers thrown into the water by Fuji are like blood in the water to a crowd like us.

Ben

Frankie
01-27-2011, 13:58
Isn't it amazing fun to speculate on a camera none of us has seen? The new camera specs are like a Rorschach test for your approach to the promise of new technology. I would submit that the teasers thrown into the water by Fuji are like blood in the water to a crowd like us.

Ben

I couldn't agree more.

videogamemaker
01-27-2011, 14:06
Same here. If I can't have it till end of March, at least I can have fun in here with you guys!

Arjay
01-27-2011, 14:19
+1

(plus ten chars)

jsrockit
01-28-2011, 04:56
Right now, the camera represents hope... hope that someone is going to do it right. I bet that once it is released, even more threads will be going crazy over it... both good and bad. The arguments have only just begun.

Frankie
01-28-2011, 07:19
Right now, the camera represents hope... hope that someone is going to do it right. I bet that once it is released, even more threads will be going crazy over it... both good and bad. The arguments have only just begun.

Long ago around Photokina 2010 week, I posted elsewhere in RFF to say the X100 represents "promised land", while the M9/ti represents "let them eat cake".

I was surprised that I didn't get busted.

andrew00
01-29-2011, 05:24
To me the X100 is exciting for both practical and ideological reasons.

Practically I like to shoot with an external flash a lot and always hot annoyed that w/the M4/3 cameras I'd have to make a decision of the VF or the Flash.

The X100 brings back a VF and lets me use the flash, so right away even if the look wasn't there I'd prob get it as it does what I want a large sensor-relatively compact camera to do.

But the look is also important and goes in the direction I hope this mid level of cameras will go - where images quality is important but they form their own aesthetic path and aren't just stripped down DSLR's.

I'd like to see compacts remain snappy, dslr's become all full frame and feature rich and this mid level of APS-C sensor be about look and feel and experience as much as anything else. The X100 ticks that box for me.

For example, imagine an iconic 60's movie with Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn and they're walking along the beach front in the French Riviera and he's taking her picture as they go. What camera would befit that moment? I can't imagine him going ok I'll just get my Ixus out or let me grab my Nikon D3X, it just doesn't fit to the image. He'd have a Contax T3 or a Leica M7/9, they fit the image.

So that's what I'd like this mid-range of cameras to become and why the X100 design is exciting. It's classic/retro but iconic in the same way RayBan Wayfarers are, they're old but modern.

jsrockit
01-31-2011, 12:54
Time will only tell with regard to that andrew00. I'm not looking for a classic, but a does the trick right now type of camera.

TimothyHughes
02-01-2011, 11:11
I'd like to see compacts remain snappy, dslr's become all full frame and feature rich and this mid level of APS-C sensor be about look and feel and experience as much as anything else.

Although my DSLRs are all going to be full frame crop bodies are here to stay. There is a huge advantage on crop bodies for sports, nature, astrophotographers and even paparazzi. A 400mm f/2.8 effectively becomes a 640mm f/2.8 on a crop sensor. And this is a huge advantage to the consumer.

jsrockit
02-01-2011, 11:19
TH is right... or Canon wouldn't make a $5000 crop sensor camera...

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_1d_mark_iv

gavinlg
02-01-2011, 17:20
There's actually a lot of momentum in the rumor mill that canon will merge the 1d lines for a more solid product lineup that doesn't cannibalize itself.

I agree that aps-c is here to stay though, it's obvious looking at the latest gen of sony sensors that the sensor real estate loss over full frame sensors isn't particularly detrimental to IQ, and they can make crop bodies smaller, and the lenses smaller - like the x100. It's a good compromise.

Quash
02-01-2011, 17:25
While I would love a full frame Fuji X100. Or, Nikon compact mirrorless FF with pancake lenses, I have to agree with you. Loss of about one stop of DOF aside, there IQ difference between APS-C and FF at the sizes I print is not significant and perhaps most of us couldn't even tell the difference in a double-blind test. The emotional allure of FF is still very powerful for many, though.

jsrockit
02-02-2011, 04:55
The only reason I want full frame is it is what I'm used to using with legacy lenses. As long as companies make great new lenses to use with a crop sensor, I have no issue using a crop sensor.

videogamemaker
02-02-2011, 05:30
The only reason I want full frame is it is what I'm used to using with legacy lenses. As long as companies make great new lenses to use with a crop sensor, I have no issue using a crop sensor.

Exactly. I switched from a 40D to a 5D to get that gorgeous 35mmL to be wideangle. The only crop solution is the 20mm 1.8 sigma which is smeary as hell below f2.8. The 35 (either actually, L or f/2) wide open on a 5D spanks the sigma on a crop. If there was a good wide angle sub F2 lens I'd have never switched.

Same with the m4/3. The 20mm 1.7 looks very nice indeed, but I don't really like the sensors or bodies so much. If the Nex had something not quite so wide and not f/2.8, that would be interesting too.

For all the promise that these smaller sensors would yeild smaller lenses, i've yet to see it come to fruition other than the 20mm 1.7 from panasonic. A 3.5-4.6 zoom is quite small on a dslr too.

What's more important about the X100 is that it's a 35mm equivalent f/2 in light gathering abilities (if not dof). A full frame would be nice if it was actually small, but so far... well it hasn't happened at an affordable level yet. (for us proles at least)

willie_901
02-02-2011, 08:22
Image quality decreases as sensor size decreases. But cameras with larger sensors cost more. Except for the M9, cameras with larger sensors are large and heavy. They also require more expensive lenses to take full advantage of the sensors' potential.

As sensor size decreases so does flexibility for applying reduced DOF for creative effect. Of course if one's style does not depend on focus isolation, this is an advanyage.

Lenses with shorter focal lengths (required for wide angles-of-view with smaller sensors) are more difficult to manufacture and generally are less optically competent. Except for flare, these problems can be offset by in-camera optical correction or RAW file parameters based on data stored on board the lens.

After a year of using cameras with micro-4/3, APS-C, and 135 format (a.k.a. full frame) sensors, I decided APS-C was the smallest sensor size I could tolerate. I have no problem with the a well-designed 23 mm focal length lens/sensor combination. While excellence in optical engineering and post-acquisition lens correction strategies may solve the short focal length issues for wide-angles-of view, I don't see much chance of small sensors performing as well as larger sensors for the next few generations of cameras (3-6 years). The DOF issue can't go away until radical changes lens technology are commercially available.