Deardorff38
Mentor
Pal, when i was in university, was before credit cards, and there was no way the bank would look at a student and lend them money for a camera or guitar or whatever other "frivolity."
I brought up the financing deal, for the present day.... in Canada if you're self-employed (fully or partially) as business you can write off your tools against a schedule. Like cars (in business terms) you can write off the monthly expense of leasing. If on the other hand, you buy outright for cash, it takes years to write off the entire cost, and in the meantime, you're losing the interest on the money you've used.... even on a modest GIC or mutual fund it's not chicken scratch if you buy good but pricey tools..... like a Leica M & lenses....if those are what you feel are the right tools for the job as it has been for many photojournalists.
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Deardorff38
Mentor
I suspect you're right, but at some time they too were contract photographers working on their own dime, & Peter was a student at the Sorbonne. Leicas & Nikons are reliable tools....but on the other hand modern Leicas and lenses are very expensive..... Yet carpenters, car mechanics, and other trades require spending money on expensive tools to ply their trade. There's no easy answer.
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pgk
Well-known
Since my M8 days I've used Leica Service perhaps 4 or 5 times and oddly enough have found it by far the best of any major manufacturer and surprisingly fast. Once was for physical damage, otherwise for sensor replacemet and sensor remapping. Cameras and lenses seem pretty reliable to me. Chatter on the web has a tendency to accentuate problems so I'm not sure it gives an accurate picture of reality at all. Ad inevitably there will be equipment with problems unless Leica have found a way to produce 100% perfect products (but no manufacturer to date has done so). FWIW the Nikon EM was apparently an extremely reliable little camera, so much so that I remember being told that Nikon UK simply replaced any that went wrong because so few did, and I think it was the cheapest camera they sold at the time.
Leica has had many challenges with digital Ms. Coffee-stain LCDs, corroded sensors, M240 loose strap lugs (at release, no less), M10 iso dial, M10 memory card incompatibilities, freezes, black screens, no access to menus, shutter won't fire, etc. etc. Forums are filled with these sorts of stories, along with many comments of 'never had any issues.' But the real issue are not the technical or QC problems, it's the often long turn-around time for service issues with many problems requiring shipment to Germany. I just came across another post stating 'won't dare to use an M10 on paid assignments' although he really enjoys using the camera. He otherwise shoots Canon.
In my case, bought two new digital Leicas (not counting a rebadged Panasonic point and shoot), with both having serious issues.
Leica should have premium service, significantly better than anyone else in the industry, considering their pricing and marketing position.
In my case, bought two new digital Leicas (not counting a rebadged Panasonic point and shoot), with both having serious issues.
Leica should have premium service, significantly better than anyone else in the industry, considering their pricing and marketing position.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Okay, that's the fifth time you have offered just about exactly the same opinion. I think we all understand that you are unhappy with Leica service, and we accept that.
Some of us have never seen a single one of these "challenges" and have had good service with Leica. You have to accept that too.
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
The online forum community probably represents less than 2% of Leica camera sales. And the 'specific failures' you articulate are voiced by a small percentage of that 2%, and it's reasonably well accepted that forum users who have a problem tend to broadcast their disappointment far and wide, multiple times.
If you object to Leica cameras on the basis of these specific failures reported by forum users, I would say that your data is badly skewed from a statistical point of view. If even 5% of Leica sales had evidenced these specific failures on a consistent basis, Leica Camera would be running aground with warranty costs rather than showing the healthy profit that they do. (It's pretty well accepted that keeping warranty costs under 3% is essential to profitability.)
G
If you object to Leica cameras on the basis of these specific failures reported by forum users, I would say that your data is badly skewed from a statistical point of view. If even 5% of Leica sales had evidenced these specific failures on a consistent basis, Leica Camera would be running aground with warranty costs rather than showing the healthy profit that they do. (It's pretty well accepted that keeping warranty costs under 3% is essential to profitability.)
G
You're missing the point, @Godfrey. I simply listed the well-known list of Leica M digital failures.
The point is, that Leica, as a premium product selling for premium prices, should also have premium service and support.
Unfortunately, they do not.
No one spending money on Leica, whether they have had issues or not, can disagree that Leica should be at the absolute top of the heap when it comes to serving their customers, without regard to whether they be hobbyists or pros.
The point is, that Leica, as a premium product selling for premium prices, should also have premium service and support.
Unfortunately, they do not.
No one spending money on Leica, whether they have had issues or not, can disagree that Leica should be at the absolute top of the heap when it comes to serving their customers, without regard to whether they be hobbyists or pros.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I understand your point very well: You feel that the service and support you've received from Leica Camera in inadequate due to the fact that you happened to purchase a camera that required an extensive amount of time in service, and you hear reports of similar things from other forum users. You extend that experience and those forum-originated reports to be a general characteristic of Leica service and support.
My personal experience with Leica cameras over the past fifty years has been quite different:
- I have only needed service and support for any Leica camera five times, and only three times for Leica M cameras.
- In all cases of sending a camera to Leica for service, my total down time without the camera has been a maximum of four to five weeks for that camera, including shipping.
The philosophical position that because Leica sells a premium product for premium prices they should provide premium service and support, by your standards, is not able to be argued or debated. It is a result of your expectations. Just because you spend a lot of money for something does not entitle you to anything more than that thing ... that is my expectation. For instance, even a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce need service and support about the same amount, or more, than a Toyota or a Chevrolet.
Leica Camera's service and support is right on the mark with my experience having used Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, Hasselblad, and Pentax Service and Support as a basis of comparison. I will add that I have needed service and support for Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, Hasselblad, and Pentax cameras approximately four times more frequently than I have needed service and support for Leica cameras.
Everyone seems to want to complain about all of these companies' service and support as a general theme. Why? I opine that it is because *all* of these products are seen as expensive, premium products and, having spent the money for one, NO ONE want to have to do without it for some trivial-seeming problem that surfaces. The general expectation, therefore, is always that "I spent a lot of money for this, it shouldn't need service, and when it does, I want it back tomorrow." This is a fallacious expectation in my opinion.
G
That's good news that you've been pleased, to be clear I've been specific about digital M, which haven't been around for anywhere near 50 years.
If you are happy with mass-market service levels when buying a high-end product, that's of course your prerogative.
It's highly doubtful most people would settle for that.
Leica offers premium warranty on their sport optics, they even call it 'best in class.' Their Passport Protection is free, includes a fully transferrable no-questions, no-fault, 10-year accidental damage coverage plan in addition to a 30-year manufacturer's warranty. Neither require a warranty card or receipt to be honored.
They should be 'best in class' with regards to their digital Ms, too. They used to offer a three year passport warranty on their film bodies back in the day which even covered drops and such...that was at the time the best, they ended it in 2007.
If you are happy with mass-market service levels when buying a high-end product, that's of course your prerogative.
It's highly doubtful most people would settle for that.
Leica offers premium warranty on their sport optics, they even call it 'best in class.' Their Passport Protection is free, includes a fully transferrable no-questions, no-fault, 10-year accidental damage coverage plan in addition to a 30-year manufacturer's warranty. Neither require a warranty card or receipt to be honored.
They should be 'best in class' with regards to their digital Ms, too. They used to offer a three year passport warranty on their film bodies back in the day which even covered drops and such...that was at the time the best, they ended it in 2007.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
Why should we accept your anecdotal evidence and extrapolate it to the norm but not accept splitimageview's anecdotal information and extrapolate it to the norm? And repetition? Half the posts on RFF are from Leica owners extolling their virtues. It gets nauseating after a while. We get it. You love your Leica. Is that the only viewpoint allowed?
pgk
Well-known
Its a pointless discussion since nobody knows actual figures for repair needs versus reliability. Extrapolation requires accurate reporting and a decent sample size to have any validity.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
Deardorff38
Mentor
My biggest complaint with Digital Leica cameras is the unreliable firmware issue. Early on, Leica outsourced to an Aerospace company for firmware development. Sometime during the M9 run, after version 1.176: the firmware became highly unreliable with respect to advancing the shutter after a picture has been taken. Same with the M monochrom. Leica started writing the firmware internally. It is awful, the worst I've ever encountered for embedded systems. This problem is prevalent, and many have complained about firmware in new cameras on the Leica users forum.
35photo
Well-known
Here is my philosophy when it comes to firmware for anything… if ain’t broken don’t even bother… Served me well over the years.
bjorke
Designated Driver
Those problems sound pretty darned broken.
The two issues that annoy me are occasional locks (have to TAKE OUT THE BATTERY to resolve) on M240, 246, M10, and now (I have not seen, but heard M11; and the annoying "UUID failure" that causes the camera(s) to re-use supposed-to-be-unique-per-exposure IDs, which then cause mis-indexing in Lightroom and Bridge catalogs/caches.
The fact that these issues have persisted across models is... surprising.
pgk
Well-known
I think that I've had to do this on most, if not all, the digital cameras that I've owned (from most major makers).
Computers crash. CTRL-ALT-DELETE
35photo
Well-known
Have never had this issue in 10+ years of using my M9 and M10-P