Proud to be an American

[Spyro]

I think the only reason nations and religions were created is because it greatly reduced the cost of war. It's much easier to tell people it is their national duty to go kill some infidels than trying to convince them to do it just for the pay.

 

[Spyro]

Not to be critical but Americans are a flag waving nation and they attach a lot of importance to 'old glory' and rightly so because they fought hard for the right to wave it!

Lately on Australia day I see a lot of vehicles being driven around with the Australian flag fluttering on them and it makes me cringe ... because that's not us IMO.

Come on Keith... what's the most common tat in Australia? The southern cross.

Mind you at any point in time a huge part of the population in Australia has actually selected this country to live in, and willingly left from another country which they largely thought it was crap (some actually had to denounce their previous citizenship to do it). And most of the remainder has been o/s and still thinks this is the best country in the world.

So yeah, I think national pride is very much an Australian thing.

 

[nebraska]

Proud?

Proud?

Proud of what? Highest infant mortality rate among advanced industrial countries. A healthcare system that is geared for profit and thus excludes tens of millions from regular access because of the lack of universal insurance. Tens of millions are unemployed because of a neo-liberal/conservative economic mentality. A corrupt news media that caters to the Wall Street crowd and their friends in Washington. An uninformed public that votes rich but lives poor (vast numbers have given up voting because they can't see that it is of any good). Politicians who cater to the most primitive instincts of people. Three wars and the Bush tax cuts for the rich have squandered our money. As a result we can't afford to pay teachers a decent wage, the Republican attack on labor unions, an ever shrinking middle class and the attempt to destroy Social Security, Medicare and Obama's inadequate healthcare reform. This is just looking at our current situation. Let's be humble and get to work to create a more just society.

 

[Frank Petronio]

Actually amongst the so-called intellectual classes in the USA, there has been a sort of anti-patriotic sentiment. Being patriotic -- from doing little things like being at attention during the national anthem to larger commitments, like taking on military service -- is scoffed upon by the teachers, professors, and academics, as well as artists, journalists, and popular entertainers (country music and talk radio being the exceptions).

This isn't so wrong except that rather than offering any sort of viable positive alternatives to the status quo, our intelligentsia churn out a steady stream of banal, cynical, irony. Which dissuades the best and the brightest from contributing and ultimately leaves us with the leaders we deserve: cynical, dumb, and lazy.

In the end it breaks us. Fifty years ago, a child's ambition might be to become a scientist, astronaut, doctor or senator -- contributors to society and the greater good, to be a good American. But nowadays kids are looking to develop computer games, be on reality shows, or maybe become personal injury attorneys. And a big contributor to this breakdown of our culture is the shift towards the cynical, sarcastic, and ironical.

Tell a ten-year old to be a good American and you'll get a Bart Simpson chuckle and probably a swear word in response.

Any thinking person can see the obvious irony in Chris's picture. It's common and demoralizing. Perhaps it gets a pat on the head -- acceptance amongst art peers -- but so what?

Maybe it's a start of a larger project if Chris digs deeper. But as a stand alone image, it's ehh, a tosser.

 

[konicaman]

Proud to be black, proud to be American, proud to be ...... The Americans are a proud lot. Nothing wrong with that per se. But its a rather strange concept to blatantly say so for many Europeans, and Norwegians in particular. We (I count myself as one when I feel like it) may think we are something, but we hate to say so, unless drunk or abroad (even more so if both).

I just like the tones of Chris' Tri-X in PMK work, its rich without being too contrasty.

Same here in Denmark - of course we are proud to be Danes but the PC police would get at you if you said it aloud. Our ways are so different all over the world. A lot of Danes have a flag pole in their garden with the Danish flag. The flags are not a statement; just considered pretty and it is a very long tradition. My neighbor who is from the UK was shocked when he first came here and saw all the flags - in his part of the UK, you are considered an extreme right-winged nationalist, if you put up the Union Jack.

Nice shot BTW Chris - both as a photo in itself and in telling a story.

Happy shooting everyone - no matter where you come from or where you live

 

[Keith]

Come on Keith... what's the most common tat in Australia? The southern cross.

Mind you at any point in time a huge part of the population in Australia has actually selected this country to live in, and willingly left from another country which they largely thought it was crap (some actually had to denounce their previous citizenship to do it). And most of the remainder has been o/s and still thinks this is the best country in the world.

So yeah, I think national pride is very much an Australian thing.

I'm not suggesting we're not patriotic Spyro because we are for sure ... but not in that show the flag style that seems prevalent in the US.

When I see Aussies driving their cars around with a fluttering flag on Australia day I wonder how much of it is true pride in who they are and how much is exhibitionism?

Now a tattoo involving permanent disfigurement I can relate to ... should be more of that!

 

[kossi008]

Trivial? Why should motorcyclists, who demand the same rights as car drivers, not follow the same rules as everyone else?

Because they are doing us a favor by not taking up valuable parking space? From what I've seen in San Francisco, it has parts that are just as crowded as the average German inner city.
The city of Aachen (where I studied) once tried to enforce street parking for motorcycles, whereupon the bikers staged a nice demo by simply following that order in masses on a busy Saturday morning: there was no parking space to be had for cars all across town...

As for the general debate, I'm with Roger in finding it odd to be proud of something you have no part in. In addition, for a German national pride is even more questionable, as we started two world wars in one century. The only people wearing "proud to be a German" patches around here are the Neo-Nazi Skinhead. types... And no, I don't believe in national shame, either.

As for the picture, it is great, and the title well chosen to spark such a debate.

 

[PRJ]

Proud of what? Highest infant mortality rate among advanced industrial countries. A healthcare system that is geared for profit and thus excludes tens of millions from regular access because of the lack of universal insurance. Tens of millions are unemployed because of a neo-liberal/conservative economic mentality. A corrupt news media that caters to the Wall Street crowd and their friends in Washington. An uninformed public that votes rich but lives poor (vast numbers have given up voting because they can't see that it is of any good). Politicians who cater to the most primitive instincts of people. Three wars and the Bush tax cuts for the rich have squandered our money. As a result we can't afford to pay teachers a decent wage, the Republican attack on labor unions, an ever shrinking middle class and the attempt to destroy Social Security, Medicare and Obama's inadequate healthcare reform. This is just looking at our current situation. Let's be humble and get to work to create a more just society.

This bears repeating although I could probably triple this list. There was a tipping point and we have passed it as a nation. All great nations have decayed and fallen though. It not like it couldn't have been predicted. I also believe it was engineered in many ways, just like the current congress would prefer a complete failure of the finances of this country over raising taxes on the few who benefit the most.

I also agree with what Frank said (although I can't believe I am agreeing with Frank two days in a row). But I would pose this problem to him. Intelligent people understand what it entails to run for an office. That is why they don't do it. You have to be an idiot these days to run for office because of the way you are treated. As a result, the blindly-ambitious-power-hungry-ego-driven-religious-whackjobs are the only ones who do it. If candidates left alone in their personal life many more would be willing to serve. We live in a country that impeaches a president for lying about a blowjob, because it is salacious, but says almost nothing when a president lies about the reasons we are going to war. How much more f'ed up can it be? I don't remember anymore who said it, but a democracy gets what it deserves.

By the way Chris, I like the image.

 

[user237428934]

Maybe the problem here (in these responses to the picture) lies in the word 'pride' and its multiple meanings and connotations?

I think this is very important. I'm proud of my daughter or my own achievements but I seriously don't understand why someone can be proud of a country.

 

[Ranchu]

Crazy thread. First, New York is not representative of America, Frank. It's full of self absorbed nonentities with delusions of grandeur and loud voices, I'm sure you agree. Out here in most of the country, we're mostly proud to be Americans. Mostly. I read a guy writing on the internet about what he liked about americans, one of the things he said he noticed was that we were honestly uncomfortable at having 'servants'. I was proud of that. Other things too.

 

[MikeL]

Actually amongst the so-called intellectual classes in the USA, there has been a sort of anti-patriotic sentiment. Being patriotic -- from doing little things like being at attention during the national anthem to larger commitments, like taking on military service -- is scoffed upon by the teachers, professors, and academics, as well as artists, journalists, and popular entertainers (country music and talk radio being the exceptions).

Frank, I don't know who you hang out with, but I find this generalization to be absolutely ridiculous.

 

[shiro_kuro]

Also Proud to be an American and a Dallas Fan

M8 35 Summaron

 

[MikeL]

The extreme stances people take these days says much about the failing of our education systems to develop critical thinking. Thinking critical seems like a lost art: How much information do you have about a subject? Is it enough to draw a conclusion? What/where are the gaps? And most importantly, how far can I extrapolate before I'll look like an idiot when discussing with others?

There's no shame in stating something any longer and appearing like an idiot. Just keep saying it and you can hope it becomes reality.

 

[pakeha]

The extreme stances people take these days says much about the failing of our education systems to develop critical thinking. Thinking critical seems like a lost art: How much information do you have about a subject? Is it enough to draw a conclusion? What/where are the gaps? And most importantly, how far can I extrapolate before I'll look like an idiot when discussing with others?

There's no shame in stating something any longer and appearing like an idiot. Just keep saying it and you can hope it becomes reality.

You are so......Right.

And Chris, i like the picture, keep em coming

 

[Rayt]

The extreme stances people take these days says much about the failing of our education systems to develop critical thinking. Thinking critical seems like a lost art: How much information do you have about a subject? Is it enough to draw a conclusion? What/where are the gaps? And most importantly, how far can I extrapolate before I'll look like an idiot when discussing with others?

There's no shame in stating something any longer and appearing like an idiot. Just keep saying it and you can hope it becomes reality.

I have been hearing about the failing of the American education system for years but whenever a city is in financial trouble the schools are the first to get cut. To be sure we allowed this to happen and deserves what is to come.

 

[thegman]

I like the picture, and I also like how something like patriotism can be discussed on RFF without it descending into a trolling war.

I think patriotism can be used to unite in a good way, like in Japan after the earthquake, there appeared to be a feeling of national unity and helping each other. But also you've only got to watch Fox News to see it used to influence the thoughts of those less capable of thinking for themselves. It seems that you don't need to convince the viewer that a policy is right or wrong, just that it is American, or anti-American. Similarly the Constitution of the United States is used as a arbiter of right and wrong. If a policy, law, or thought is considered to be unconstitutional, it is wrong, and otherwise it is right.

We have the same problem in the UK, but to a lesser extent, that many people can only decide if a policy is a good idea or not once they've heard which party it's from.

Anyway, I think it's a successful photo, and I like it.

 

[bob338]

Any thinking person can see the obvious irony in Chris's picture. It's common and demoralizing. Perhaps it gets a pat on the head -- acceptance amongst art peers -- but so what?

Maybe it's a start of a larger project if Chris digs deeper. But as a stand alone image, it's ehh, a tosser.

What kind of person am I if I only see Chris being condescending?

I agree that it's not a great picture. If it were presented without irony, it would be more acceptable to me. Try to think of it like Parr Vs. Eggleston; Parr looks for irony, Eggleston looks for pictures. Parr will be footnote in 50 years, Eggleston will be a chapter.
I think Chris is looking for irony.

Bob

 

[bob338]

Because they are doing us a favor by not taking up valuable parking space? From what I've seen in San Francisco, it has parts that are just as crowded as the average German inner city.

You can park in motorcycle spaces or between cars and save the same amount of space as well. Parking on the sidewalk isn't about saving space, it's about entitlement.

Bob

 

[Frank Petronio]

Ah yes but then again, irony and cynicism are such photogenic crutches... my contribution to the general sense of melancholy... after all, a fence and a mean-ass biker chick really hammer it into you head.

 

[Ken Smith]

You mention great things done by previous generations of Americans the world will always be grateful for. But since Vietnam, Central America, Middle East, Afghanistan, you know what I mean,............

You're right - we have picked leaders that have made some bad discisions, lead us down wrong paths, etc. And honestly they probably did it with the best intentions of the time. Problem is it's hard to stand by and watch when nations or groups of people don't play well with others, run with scissors, strap explosives on to kids, commit genocide, stone others who marry outside their religion, want to establish a one world religion through through death or intimidation. - you know what I mean.

Perhaps we're too worldly naive in that we believe the rest of the world wants democracy and the right of citizens to choose their own destiny and make it. We still believe in"free will." Fact is a whole lot of the world would rather kill off those who are different than they. They would rather continue age old traditions of sectarian violence and who are we to stop them. I still tend to believe in civil discourse - we can agree to disagree without blowing each other's heads off, but anymore that's a rarity in a lot of the world.

But then again I'm a guy who for 25 years raised his right hand and said "I swear to defend..." Yeah - I do believe in the US Constitution and what it states. Unfortunately more and more of those who still believe that are lumped under the what many "intellectuals"in American prefer to call "poor dumb white trash" or "redneck." My great grandfather had a term for such intellectuals - it was called "educated idiots."